The Rugby Thread

[talkshowhost86]

Have to agree to disagree. Furlong is head and shoulders the best tighthead prop available; likewise Sexton is the best fly half.

Actually you're probably right about Furlong. I think Nel is the only one who could compete, but with his injuries he's presumably out of the running. Other than that the next best option is...ummm...I don't know.

Sexton v Farrell is one that will run and run. For me Farrell has been at the top of his game at the very highest level for club and country for 2 years now. Sexton, whilst obviously a gem of a player, needs a consistent run, although his changes go up if we pick Murray at scrum half.

Saturday's game is big for a lot of these decisions methinks.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Reign it in, outburst? Lol. Nah mate, you're clearly trolling so I'll leave you too it, you're obviously looking for a reaction.

I'm genuinely not.

AWJ is a great player but I wouldn't pick him in my Lions team.

And I think Rhys Webb is a bit of a prick.

Not sure where in that I'm 'trolling'.

But I can see that any question of not picking certain Welsh players is going to get a Gatlandian reaction so I suggest we just pick the Welsh team and see what happens.

 

[FMA]

Actually you're probably right about Furlong. I think Nel is the only one who could compete, but with his injuries he's presumably out of the running. Other than that the next best option is...ummm...I don't know.

Sexton v Farrell is one that will run and run. For me Farrell has been at the top of his game at the very highest level for club and country for 2 years now. Sexton, whilst obviously a gem of a player, needs a consistent run, although his changes go up if we pick Murray at scrum half.

Saturday's game is big for a lot of these decisions methinks.

I think the English results and performances have demonstrated the benefits of having a 10 and 12 who are both proficient with ball in hand and with the boot. Sexton, Farrell and Joseph would be an interesting combination. This tour will be absolutely brutal, though, and whether Sexton can stand up to the relentless fixture list, will remain to be seen.

 

[talkshowhost86]

I think the English results and performances have demonstrated the benefits of having a 10 and 12 who are both proficient with both ball in hand and with the boot. Sexton, Farrell and Joseph would be an interesting combination. This tour will be absolutely brutal, though, and whether Sexton can stand up to the relentless fixture list, will remain to be seen.

I'm actually not convinced that the England 6Ns performances have shown that. When Wales and France got in England's face, the 10-12 combo really wasn't working and we could perhaps have done with a bit more oomph rather than two playmakers.

Having said that it worked excellently against Australia which is closer to the style of play we'll meet in New Zealand, but I just think Sexton, Farrell, Josephs might be a bit too lightweight against the All Blacks.

Josephs is an interesting one. Before Saturday I'd have said his place on the plane was in jeopardy but now who knows. I actually think centre is the other position the Lions have a few problems.

 

[E17yid]

I'm genuinely not.

AWJ is a great player but I wouldn't pick him in my Lions team.

And I think Rhys Webb is a bit of a prick.

Not sure where in that I'm 'trolling'.

But I can see that any question of not picking certain Welsh players is going to get a Gatlandian reaction so I suggest we just pick the Welsh team and see what happens.

Ok mate. I may be sticking up for certain Welsh players but you want to pick the whole English team as evidenced by your statement that Wyn Jones wouldn't even go on tour as there would be 4 or 5 players ahead of him, if you can't see how laughable that is then ok.

And yeah, Rhys Webb is a bit of a prick and like I said I found that funny coz you defend players like Marler and Brown as it just makes you look silly.

 

[nightgoat]

But I can see that any question of not picking certain Welsh players is going to get a Gatlandian reaction so I suggest we just pick the Welsh team and see what happens.

As well as Wales' record against New Zealand, I'd imagine. Hopefully Gitlund can rise above that.

Josephs is an interesting one. Before Saturday I'd have said his place on the plane was in jeopardy but now who knows. I actually think centre is the other position the Lions have a few problems.

There's no real Warrenball option at centre at the moment with Tuilagi injured and Roberts out of the picture. Joseph runs better lines than any other centre and is probably the biggest try scoring threat. Sexton - Farrell - Joseph does have appeal from a creative angle, but is liable to be targeted (although they're all decent defenders.)

Assuming we'll take four centres with Farrell as an option at both 10 and 12 I'd take Joseph, Davies and Ringrose, fourth spot up for grabs though.

 

[SugarRay]

This tour will be completely different from the last one.

Australia was the worst test side the Lions have ever faced, by a mile. They were in disarray and completely lacking direction. Barely a top 3 side at the time of the series. Gatland could have picked a completely different XV for each game and still been involved in a 50/50 shootout at worst.

This time the selection has to be absolutely spot on to simply be competitive. Get it slightly wrong, put faith in an older "trusted" player who hasn't done the business for a couple of years etc, and you could end up being completely humiliated!

I'd be tempted to go with the younger generation than stuffing it full of grizzled vets. Afterall, the grizzled vets are experts in getting absolutely spanked by the all blacks! Throw a sprinkling of experience in sure, but experience is overrated in this instance, especially when this experience is nothing but losing.

I am fully expecting a 'blackwash' with at least one 25+ points defeat.

 

[E17yid]

This tour will be completely different from the last one.

Australia was the worst test side the Lions have ever faced, by a mile. They were in disarray and completely lacking direction. Barely a top 3 side at the time of the series. Gatland could have picked a completely different XV for each game and still been involved in a 50/50 shootout at worst.

This time the selection has to be absolutely spot on to simply be competitive. Get it slightly wrong, put faith in an older "trusted" player who hasn't done the business for a couple of years etc, and you could end up being completely humiliated!

I'd be tempted to go with the younger generation than stuffing it full of grizzled vets. Afterall, the grizzled vets are experts in getting absolutely spanked by the all blacks! Throw a sprinkling of experience in sure, but experience is overrated in this instance, especially when this experience is nothing but losing.

I am fully expecting a 'blackwash' with at least one 25+ points defeat.

I don't expect us to win the series but I reckon we can go into the last test 1-1. If we do then who knows. The problem with the lions is lack of training time and continuity. I think you're right though team selection is key (it always is in big test games like this) and you'll have to mix up youth and the more experienced players.

 

[talkshowhost86]

I don't expect us to win the series but I reckon we can go into the last test 1-1. If we do then who knows. The problem with the lions is lack of training time and continuity. I think you're right though team selection is key (it always is in big test games like this) and you'll have to mix up youth and the more experienced players.

The biggest issue with this series, apart from the fact that the All Blacks are awesome, seems to be that the scheduling is ridiculous. The whole squad won't get together until the second week of the tour, there are a ludicrous number of games in between and it all just seems set up to make it as hard as possible for the Lions.

Lack of training and continuity is an issue though. I'd fancy England to beat the All Blacks more than the Lions not because it would be a better XV but because they've had so much time playing together.

But they are there to be beaten. Ireland did it, albeit in slightly odd circumstances, and we've all seen that this Ireland team is far from perfect.

I would feel a whole lot more comfortable about the Lions if Gatland and Howley weren't involved though. All joking about picking the Welsh players aside, I'm more concerned that he'll continue with Gatland-ball even though the players aren't there to do it.

 

[E17yid]

The biggest issue with this series, apart from the fact that the All Blacks are awesome, seems to be that the scheduling is ridiculous. The whole squad won't get together until the second week of the tour, there are a ludicrous number of games in between and it all just seems set up to make it as hard as possible for the Lions.

Lack of training and continuity is an issue though. I'd fancy England to beat the All Blacks more than the Lions not because it would be a better XV but because they've had so much time playing together.

But they are there to be beaten. Ireland did it, albeit in slightly odd circumstances, and we've all seen that this Ireland team is far from perfect.

I would feel a whole lot more comfortable about the Lions of Gatland and Howley weren't involved though. All joking about picking the Welsh players aside, I'm more concerned that he'll continue with Gatland-ball even though the players aren't there to do it.

Yeah that's fair enough. I was going to say that England would perhaps stand a better chance by themselves not because they have better individual players but coz of the training/game time etc etc.

I hear what you're saying about Gatland, and definitely Howley, but I think he'll adapt as the personnel will be different. I know the English joke about him just picking the Welsh players but I don't think he will, I obviously expect around 10 (give or take a couple) to go but it'll be a majority English squad for sure. Starting 15 is anyone's guess though really and we'll just have to wait and see I guess. Also, a bit of Gatland ball will be needed at times but he must show more flexibility and variety especially in our attacking play.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Yeah that's fair enough. I was going to say that England would perhaps stand a better chance by themselves not because they have better individual players but coz of the training/game time etc etc.

I hear what you're saying about Gatland, and definitely Howley, but I think he'll adapt as the personnel will be different. I know the English joke about him just picking the Welsh players but I don't think he will, I obviously expect around 10 (give or take a couple) to go but it'll be a majority English squad for sure. Starting 15 is anyone's guess though really and we'll just have to wait and see I guess. Also, a bit of Gatland ball will be needed at times but he must show more flexibility and variety especially in our attacking play.

I don't think even Gatland would be biased enough at this stage to stick with the old stagers like Halfpenny and Roberts in the first XV but I do think they may both (certainly undeservedly in Roberts' case) go. I just don't think Gatland-ball will work against the All Blacks. People simply don't go through the middle of them, and we don't even have the players to do it anyway, so I hope he is flexible.

I like to see a mix of nationalities in the Lions teams anyway because that is sort of the point, but there are benefits to having combinations of players who play together regularly. Will be interesting to see if that's what happens (Irish boys in the scrum, Farrell and Josephs, Itoje + 1 at lock, Warburton and Tipuric etc).

But you're right the first XV is anyone's guess, but I think after this weekend Gatland will have a fairly good idea of what his planned team will be.

 

[E17yid]

I don't think even Gatland would be biased enough at this stage to stick with the old stagers like Halfpenny and Roberts in the first XV but I do think they may both (certainly undeservedly in Roberts' case) go. I just don't think Gatland-ball will work against the All Blacks. People simply don't go through the middle of them, and we don't even have the players to do it anyway, so I hope he is flexible.

I like to see a mix of nationalities in the Lions teams anyway because that is sort of the point, but there are benefits to having combinations of players who play together regularly. Will be interesting to see if that's what happens (Irish boys in the scrum, Farrell and Josephs, Itoje + 1 at lock, Warburton and Tipuric etc).

But you're right the first XV is anyone's guess, but I think after this weekend Gatland will have a fairly good idea of what his planned team will be.

Let's just hope he doesn't show the bias that Woodwood showed in 2005 when he picked 20 odd English players off the back of their WC win a couple of years earlier, completely ignoring the Welsh who won the grandslam in 2005. Let's also hope we don't get as smashed as we did back then as well.

 

[mpickard2087]

This weekend's games should have no relevance really on picking the Lions squad - in fact I'd be worried if Gatland sees this as some kind of shootout. If England for example have a poor game this weekend/get defeated, which is entirely possible in what will be a very tough test match, one game doesn't change that they have been the form team over the last 12 months or so.

Also this applies individually, whoever it is from whatever country and win/lose/draw, one poor game (or, on the other hand, good game out of nowhere) shouldn't mean the form of the last season or two gets thrown in the dustbin.

Personally I'm looking forward to the tour as I expect the Lions to be at the least very competitive. If we aren't then something has gone badly wrong. Yes the schedule is brutal but we can take a large squad with this in mind. There's a wealth of talent and choice in the forwards and we should have a brilliant pack of forwards that is secure in the set piece, massive work rate and athleticism, great rugby skills, and a huge amount of power and ball carrying. There is enough choice in the backs too, with different options for different game plans, to play off the platform the forwards can give.

 

[E17yid]

This weekend's games should have no relevance really on picking the Lions squad - in fact I'd be worried if Gatland sees this as some kind of shootout. If England for example have a poor game this weekend/get defeated, which is entirely possible in what will be a very tough test match, one game doesn't change that they have been the form team over the last 12 months or so.

Also this applies individually, whoever it is from whatever country and win/lose/draw, one poor game (or, on the other hand, good game out of nowhere) shouldn't mean the form of the last season or two gets thrown in the dustbin.

Personally I'm looking forward to the tour as I expect the Lions to be at the least very competitive. If we aren't then something has gone badly wrong. Yes the schedule is brutal but we can take a large squad with this in mind. There's a wealth of talent and choice in the forwards and we should have a brilliant pack of forwards that is secure in the set piece, massive work rate and athleticism, great rugby skills, and a huge amount of power and ball carrying. There is enough choice in the backs too, with different options for different game plans, to play off the platform the forwards can give.

I don't think these games will have too much relevance. He's probably already picked 30 odd players.

You'd imagine Furlong, Cian Healy, Best, Murray, Sexton and Henderson are dead certs for Ireland. Wyn Jones, Warburton, Tipuric, Faletau, Webb, Biggar, North, Davies and Williams. Then certainties for Scotland Jonny and Richie Gray, Hogg and probably Laidlaw (if fit). For England your looking at both Vunipola's, Hartley, Coles, Launchbury, Itoje, Ford, Farell, Joseph, Daly, as pretty much nailed on. That leaves, what, 10 spots or so up for grabs or is 44?

 

[mpickard2087]

I don't think these games will have too much relevance. He's probably already picked 30 odd players.

You'd imagine Furlong, Cian Healy, Best, Murray, Sexton and Henderson are dead certs for Ireland. Wyn Jones, Warburton, Tipuric, Faletau, Webb, Biggar, North, Davies and Williams. Then certainties for Scotland Jonny and Richie Gray, Hogg and probably Laidlaw (if fit). For England your looking at both Vunipola's, Hartley, Coles, Launchbury, Itoje, Ford, Farell, Joseph, Daly, as pretty much nailed on. That leaves, what, 10 spots or so up for grabs or is 44?

Ok I'll have a go, this is who I think should be in contention for the squad on form of the last year...

1. Marler, M. Vunipola, McGrath, Healy.
2. George, Hartley, Owens, Best.
3. Furlong, Cole, WP Nel (if fit).
4/5. Kruis, Itoje, Lawes, Launchbury, Henderson, J.Gray, R.Gray, AWJ, possibly Charteris as well.
6/7. Stander, SOB, Warburton, Tipuric, Haskell, Robshaw, H. Watson.
8. B. Vunipola, Faletau, Heaslip.

9. Murray, Webb, Youngs, Laidlaw.
10. Sexton, Biggar, Ford, Russell
12/13. Farrell, Henshaw, Joseph, H.Jones, maybe Dunbar also.
11/14. A. Watson, Nowell, Daly, North, Seymour
15. Hogg, L. Williams.

A quick tot up and it seems that's a nice round 50 names to consider. I think Hooker and Centre are the two weakest areas for players on form and putting their hands up for contention.

For my wildcard picks, I'll stick firmly with English players... Ben T'eo would be a good option as crash-ball centre, and I'd seriously consider taking Kyle Sinckler with the sole intention of having him as an option off the bench.

Be interesting to see how close that is to the final squad (probably not very ), I cant see Gatland leaving out his boy Halfpenny, and two of Roberts/Williams/Davies will go I suspect.

 

[E17yid]

Ok I'll have a go, this is who I think should be in contention for the squad on form of the last year...

1. Marler, M. Vunipola, McGrath, Healy.
2. George, Hartley, Owens, Best.
3. Furlong, Cole, WP Nel (if fit).
4/5. Kruis, Itoje, Lawes, Launchbury, Henderson, J.Gray, R.Gray, AWJ, possibly Charteris as well.
6/7. Stander, SOB, Warburton, Tipuric, Haskell, Robshaw, H. Watson.
8. B. Vunipola, Faletau, Heaslip.

9. Murray, Webb, Youngs, Laidlaw.
10. Sexton, Biggar, Ford, Russell
12/13. Farrell, Henshaw, Joseph, H.Jones, maybe Dunbar also.
11/14. A. Watson, Nowell, Daly, North, Seymour
15. Hogg, L. Williams.

A quick tot up and it seems that's a nice round 50 names to consider. I think Hooker and Centre are the two weakest areas for players on form and putting their hands up for contention.

For my wildcard picks, I'll stick firmly with English players... Ben T'eo would be a good option as crash-ball centre, and I'd seriously consider taking Kyle Sinckler with the sole intention of having him as an option off the bench.

Be interesting to see how close that is to the final squad (probably not very ), I cant see Gatland leaving out his boy Halfpenny, and two of Roberts/Williams/Davies will go I suspect.

I'd be surprised if Roberts and Scott Williams go. I would be less surprised if Halfpenny did.

About 50 always end getting called up anyway but I think you can easily trim 5 off your list but all looks about right.

One player you and others will know more about than me who's always impressed when I've seen him is Wade but he doesn't really play for England.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Ok I'll have a go, this is who I think should be in contention for the squad on form of the last year...

1. Marler, M. Vunipola, McGrath, Healy.
2. George, Hartley, Owens, Best.
3. Furlong, Cole, WP Nel (if fit).
4/5. Kruis, Itoje, Lawes, Launchbury, Henderson, J.Gray, R.Gray, AWJ, possibly Charteris as well.
6/7. Stander, SOB, Warburton, Tipuric, Haskell, Robshaw, H. Watson.
8. B. Vunipola, Faletau, Heaslip.

9. Murray, Webb, Youngs, Laidlaw.
10. Sexton, Biggar, Ford, Russell
12/13. Farrell, Henshaw, Joseph, H.Jones, maybe Dunbar also.
11/14. A. Watson, Nowell, Daly, North, Seymour
15. Hogg, L. Williams.

A quick tot up and it seems that's a nice round 50 names to consider. I think Hooker and Centre are the two weakest areas for players on form and putting their hands up for contention.

For my wildcard picks, I'll stick firmly with English players... Ben T'eo would be a good option as crash-ball centre, and I'd seriously consider taking Kyle Sinckler with the sole intention of having him as an option off the bench.

Be interesting to see how close that is to the final squad (probably not very ), I cant see Gatland leaving out his boy Halfpenny, and two of Roberts/Williams/Davies will go I suspect.

Largely agree with that if we're taking that many.

I wouldn't take Charteris (surely we don't need 9 locks) and I don't think they'll take four fly halfs plus Farrell so I'd replace Russell with someone like Davies or Ringrose. I think Dunbar really crapped his pants on the big occasion last weekend so I'm not sure about him. As you say maybe Te'o as something a bit different.

On the wing I'd like to see North play well again this weekend before saying he's a certainty. Obviously a destructive winger at his best, but last weekend was his best performance by some margin since all the head injuries (understandable obviously). Visser has had a good season as well and has brought that to the 6Ns so maybe he'd go as a more out and out winger with perhaps another specialist fullback going (presumably Halfpenny but I'd rather see Brown or Kearney).

Not sure what the point of taking Youngs would be. If you want an option to calm a game down if needed (considering Murray and Webb are quite dynamic) you've hopefully got Laidlaw and if you want one more I'd actually go outside the England squad and take Wigglesworth.

The other one I'd question is Heaslip as I think he's on the wane now. Not sure who would go instead though. Moriarty has had a great tournament for Wales.

As for the Sink, he's probably not mature enough for that sort of experience just yet and he can get on the wrong side of the ref at scrum-time quite easily. On a personal level I'd love to see him go though.

 

[talkshowhost86]

I'd be surprised if Roberts and Scott Williams go. I would be less surprised if Halfpenny did.

About 50 always end getting called up anyway but I think you can easily trim 5 off your list but all looks about right.

One player you and others will know more about than me who's always impressed when I've seen him is Wade but he doesn't really play for England.

The thought of Wade trying to tackle some of the All Black backs terrifies me...

 

[TheChosenOne]

Hi, first post in this thread...

The 16 yr olddaughter is off to Dublin on Saturday week to see Leinster vs Cardiff Blues at the RDS.

School trip from here in the S.E.of Ireland ... € 22 ticket and coach - not bad !

Oh and Tadgh Furlong is a local lad from this neck of the woods. His old school is about 3 miles from here.
Big celebrity in the town, nice easy going bloke by all accounts.

 

[mpickard2087]

@talkshowhost86 I wouldn't take all of those players, just who I think should be in contention for the final squad.