The solution to our problems (I think)

[joey55]

We’ve tried and failed to replace Carrick. Zokora isn’t a good enough football and the Hudd isn’t sufficiently experienced yet and also has mobility problems. I think we need to stop trying to replace Carrick and simply change the way our CM operates. Last season we had Carrick holding and therefore JJ was able to play further up the pitch. That worked, but it was largely because of how good Carrick is. JJ wasn’t brilliant in the more advanced midfield role last season and whilst he has improved this year, he is still well short of top quality. I don’t believe he ever will be as he isn’t a particularly creative player. He was touted as the next Vieira, but since he has come to us, he has played in front of a holding player and therefore been used as our main attacking threat from CM. I don’t think his game suites this role.

The trouble with Zokora is he is a great athlete, but not a great footballer. The Hudd’s problem is the opposite. He is a great footballer, but poor athlete. Therefore Zokora can get around and protect the back four, but uses the ball really poorly and therefore we lack fluency. The Hudd uses the ball well, but can’t get about to protect the back 4 so well and due to his inexperience can’t read the game like Carrick. We need a combination of the two, to play as our defensive midfielder. Someone who has the speed to close the opposition down and then use the ball when he has possession. JJ is the answer. I’m not suggesting he plays the holding role, but that it is made clear to him that he is our primary defensive midfielder.

We also have the ideal candidate to play in the more advanced midfield role. Again, I’m not suggesting this player has no defensive duties, as JJ won’t be simply sitting in front of the back 4, but just that he knows his main job is to create. That player is Malbranque. I like what I’ve seen of Steed since he’s been with us, but feel how he is being used at the moment; he is more of a hindrance than help. Nearly all the good creative work he does is when he drifts inside. Therefore he isn’t really helping provide width on the left, but he is making us more vulnerable there. If he played in the middle his lack of pace wouldn’t be exposed as much and he’d be able to do more damage. He is a tenacious little tackler and again being in the middle will make it easier for him to get stuck in, as on the wing players tend to just fly past him. They won’t be able to do that in the hustle and bustle of the middle of the pitch. We replace Steed on the left with TT. Now I know he isn’t a favourite at SC, but the fact remains he played there for most of last season and we finished 5th. If he plays on the left we will be much more solid, so we will gain from a defensive point of view. However, we wont be losing anything from an attacking point of view as Steed doesn’t really provide much width anyway, and he tends to come inside to do his best work.

We have better defensive options, with the additions of Chimbonda and Rocha, than last season. Attack wise we have improved with the addition of Berbs and the further development of Lennon. Our main trouble is, that we have been considerably worse in the CM. I believe the midfield I have suggested would make us even stronger than last year. JJ would offer just as good defensive cover as Carrick did. Malbranque will offer even more creativity than Carrick did, only he’ll be able to do it further up the pitch, so we should be more dangerous, yet equally defensively solid. BMJ needs to accept we don’t have the players to play how we did last season. We need to play to the strengths of our current squad, not our past squad. I think if we play the 4 I’ve suggested we will finish 5th. If we stick with things how they are at the moment I can’t see us qualifying for the UEFA Cup via the league. Opinions?

 

[gibbs131]

Agree to put TT on the left. I would rather see malbs given a free role with Berbs upfront. JJ is first name on the sheet when it comes to the CM role. One bad performance against Arsenal does not make JJ a bad player.

 

[joey55]

Agree to put TT on the left. I would rather see malbs given a free role with Berbs upfront. JJ is first name on the sheet when it comes to the CM role. One bad performance against Arsenal does not make JJ a bad player.

But do you not agree that his game is more suited to the role I've suggested. I think he'd be fantastic at protecting the back 4, whilst linking the play to the more advanced players. Unlike Carrick and the Hudd, he wouldn't have to sit and hold, as he is sufficiently athletic to get up and down the pitch, like Vieira used to. He'd still be a threat from set pieces and with late runs in to the box. I don't think it would effect his goal tally that much.

 

[Gazza T]

Its is interesting theory. JJ has great energy but with him and Steed we might lack a tackling ball winner. Steed does a lot of work and always tackles back but if you look at all the good teams around today the ball winning holding player is vital to all of them. Maka at Chelsea, G silva at the scum, Keane done it at Man U and looks like Hargreaves will replace him soon, Barca have Edmilson. Im not disagreeing with you but I like to see a specified ball winner in the middle.

 

[joey55]

Its is interesting theory. JJ has great energy but with him and Steed we might lack a tackling ball winner. Steed does a lot of work and always tackles back but if you look at all the good teams around today the ball winning holding player is vital to all of them. Maka at Chelsea, G silva at the scum, Keane done it at Man U and looks like Hargreaves will replace him soon, Barca have Edmilson. Im not disagreeing with you but I like to see a specified ball winner in the middle.

Makele plays with a 3 in the middle. Also Makalele isn't a ball winner, which is a common missconception. How Keane played at Utd is how I'm suggesting JJ plays. Keane only started to hold towards the end of his career and Utd became shit. Before then he was just a more deffensively minded midfielder, who still surged forward. This is what i'm suggesting for JJ. Keane in his later years at Utd and Zokora for us, are evidence that you can't play a simple holding role in a 2 man midfield. You must have a player who can pass the ball well, such as Carrick or Alonso. I don't think we should have a holding midfielder as such, just one who is more deffensive minded and one who attackes more, ie Giberto and Fabregas. Gilberto really isn't a simple holding midfiedler.

As for your ball winning concerns, JJ is by far our best ball winner. His stats show he is way ahead of our other midfielders in this department.

 

[bubble07]

Good write up. Complety agree with the problem but not convinced with the solution

I feel with JJ and malbranque in the middle we would be more vulnerable than with zokora and jenas. We have conceded a hell of a lot of goals and by replacing zokora with malbranque in the centre may only make things worse

I think short term the way forward is to have a midfield pairing of zokora and jenas - 2 great athletes able to run all day and close the opposition down. If malbranque does this it would take away his attacking instincts and creativity and huddlestone simply doesn't have the mobility

Once king comes back i feel we could maybe try malbranque in the middle

but if we do have malbranque in the middle then someone like tainio on the left is a must

 

[Davey-O]

hmmm

Lennon - jenas - steed - tanio

that could work!



Jenas can do carricks role better than zoko or hudd i reckon

 

[SpurSince57]

I'd go along with that, and in fact suggested it on the 'Blades' thread. (Hiss! Boo! He's a copycat, miss!) Malbranque's notion of playing at LM appears to be to make a beeline for the centre circle at the earliest opportunity, not only throwing us out of shape but leaving room for a carriage and four down our flank. OPTA stats reveal that Lee and BAE have had to put in at least half as many tackles again as Chimbonda, which confirms what we all knew anyway.

http://home.skysports.com/optastats.aspx?clid=6&hlid=OPTA_Tottenham_Hotspur&cpid=8

(I have, BTW, allowed for the five games Lee has played at RB. This latest set also shows that Malbranque has shot up the tackling ratings.)

Tainio does have the discipline to remain in position and until we finally get a specialist in is the best option we have. In theory, BAE can play LM, but the fact he hasn't been tried there suggests Jol has misgivings. For me, two out of three from Ghaly, Jenas and Malbranque is the best option at CM, with Jenas and Malbranque the preferred pairing. What is important, whoever plays, is that roles are clearly assigned. I still think our major problem, besides the lack of stability in midfield compared to last season, is that players either don't know what they're supposed to be doing, or are incapable of following instructions.

And make Jenas captain in King's absence. Robinson and Keane have too many problems with their own form at the moment to do the job (and I don't agree with the notion of keepers as captain in any case). He's the only real alternative, and the responsibility might just be the making of him.

 

[joey55]

Good write up. Complety agree with the problem but not convinced with the solution

I feel with JJ and malbranque in the middle we would be more vulnerable than with zokora and jenas. We have conceded a hell of a lot of goals and by replacing zokora with malbranque in the centre may only make things worse

I think short term the way forward is to have a midfield pairing of zokora and jenas - 2 great athletes able to run all day and close the opposition down. If malbranque does this it would take away his attacking instincts and creativity and huddlestone simply doesn't have the mobility

Once king comes back i feel we could maybe try malbranque in the middle

but if we do have malbranque in the middle then someone like tainio on the left is a must

But we aren't replacing Zokora with Malbranque, we would be replacing Zokora with JJ. Last time JJ and Zokora played together, until Mido scored the opposition had 72% of possession. That is simply incredible and totally unnacceptable. Yes the Scum were good, but the main problem was we didn't have any control in the middle of the pitch. Zokora was unable to link with the attacking players. So we were always under pressure and played too deep. He simply isn't a ball playing midfeilder, which in a 2 CM, he must be. JJ will be able to link the play far better, whilst also providing better deffensive cover.

 

[phil]

Joey, agree that Zokora isn't good enough and that JJ, Malbranque, TT and Lennon probably represent our best midfield. I'd probably put TT in CM and Malbranque on the left (yes, I know he drifts inside) as TT is our best ball-winner. Not sure that JJ can play the holding role but given that most other combinations have failed, it's probably worth a try. I'd also like to see O'Hara given a start at some point.

 

[joey55]

hmmm

Lennon - jenas - steed - tanio

that could work!



Jenas can do carricks role better than zoko or hudd i reckon

What I like about it is that I feel we will be more creative than last season, but equally solid. JJ has come on leaps and bounds in terms of his deffensive work and is by far our best ball winner. Last season Carrick was our most creative midfielder, but he was doing this from deep positions. In this system, the creativity comes further up the pitch, fom Steed, and we should therefore cause the opposition much more trouble. The more I think about it the more I like it.

 

[Gazza T]

Yeah your right bout keane. I read his book and he said that he had to stop allthe running cos his legs wouldnt do it for him. I think it just leaves us lightweight in the mid with Steed and JJ. All our midfielders have ceertain qualities but not one is a brill all rounder. Id prefer TT in the mid with JJ. TT gets stuck in when the chips are down. Its very hard to make a partnership out of our current bunch. One thing for certain Murphy is wasting oxygen at the training ground every day

 

[joey55]

Joey, agree that Zokora isn't good enough and that JJ, Malbranque, TT and Lennon probably represent our best midfield. I'd probably put TT in CM and Malbranque on the left (yes, I know he drifts inside) as TT is our best ball-winner. Not sure that JJ can play the holding role but given that most other combinations have failed, it's probably worth a try. I'd also like to see O'Hara given a start at some point.

He wont be playing the holding role. That is the point. We shouldn't have a holding midfielder, who simply sits and protects the back 4. We should just play with a midfielder, who though primarily deffensive, can still get up and down the pitch. He'd be playing much more like Vieira or Keane when he was at his peak, rather than how Zokora or the Hudd currently play.

 

[longdistancespursfan]

I like the idea joey, like others have said i agree with the problem you identify but not sure about the solution, i have a few doubts about it been strong enough particulary away from home but i think it mus be worth a try, nothing else is working. i still wouldnt be happy with tt on the left but seen as we have no one i would be happy with i guess he is as good choice as any.

 

[SpurSince57]

The other day Dragon1 posted on COYS that Jol is massively pissed off with Comolli about Zokora, and that he reckons Huddlestone is maybe two seasons away from being ready. Now as anyone who has followed the last two transfer windows knows, Dragon1 is not the most esteemed of ITKs on here, but does one need to be 'ITK' to work out this is not too far from the truth? Due to Carrick's departure, Davids' fall from grace (whatever the real story behind that is), apparent lack of confidence in Murphy, Ghaly's suspension, and injuries to Tainio, Jenas, Malbranque and Lennon, not to mention new arrivals, our settled midfield of last season has become a bit of a shambles. Jol has had to call on Zokora and Huddlestone because they've been the last men standing.

Here's last season's midfield:

Jenas: 30
Carrick: 35
Tainio: 22 (2)
Davids: 30 (1)
Murphy: 2 (8)
Reid: 7 (6)
Mendes: 3 (3)
Brown: 2 (7)
Huddlestone: (4)
Routledge: 2 (1)
Lennon: 21 (6)

And here's this season's:

Jenas: 12
Ghaly: 13 (3)
Zokora: 16 (4)
Huddlestone: 14 (3)
Malbranque: 12 (1)
Lennon: 13 (2)
Murphy: 5 (6)
Tainio: 10 (1)
Davids: 4 (5)
Ziegler: (1)

Players who've appeared in over 75% of games in bold. There are one or two discrepancies regarding sub appearances, but it illustrates our problem. I have, BTW, posted this on another thread, but make no apologies for re-posting it here, as it seems relevant. Basically, we have to try and establish a first-choice midfield and keep it together for the remainder of the season.

 

[bubble07]

He wont be playing the holding role. That is the point. We shouldn't have a holding midfielder, who simply sits and protects the back 4. We should just play with a midfielder, who though primarily deffensive, can still get up and down the pitch. He'd be playing much more like Vieira or Keane when he was at his peak, rather than how Zokora or the Hudd currently play.

however all the top 4 clubs currenly have a holding midfielder and a creative and/or goalscoring partner alongside him

makalele lampard
carrick scholes
alonso gerrard
gilberto fabregas

i think malbranque could be our creative player IF he has a mobile disciplined holding midfielder leader alongside him.

It anoyes me to say it because i never used to rate him but i think we would improve so much more if we had gilberto in the centre

we need someone like gilberto and then malbranque could play in the centre. We would then need a left winger in the mould of joe cole (i.e. a central midfielder able to play out wide and link up play by comming inside). With the speed and width of lennon down the right the team looks balanced

at the moment we have so many central midfielders but not one in the gilberto mould

 

[joey55]

however all the top 4 clubs currenly have a holding midfielder and a creative and/or goalscoring partner alongside him

makalele lampard
carrick scholes
alonso gerrard
gilberto fabregas

i think malbranque could be our creative player IF he has a mobile disciplined holding midfielder leader alongside him.

It anoyes me to say it because i never used to rate him but i think we would improve so much more if we had gilberto in the centre

we need someone like gilberto and then malbranque could play in the centre. We would then need a left winger in the mould of joe cole (i.e. a central midfielder able to play out wide and link up play by comming inside). With the speed and width of lennon down the right the team looks balanced

at the moment we have so many central midfielders but not one in the gilberto mould

Makele plays in a 3 or in a very narrow 442, so that is totally different. Alonso and Carrick, as I've posted time and time again are the only type's of players who can play in a 2 man CM in the Premiership. This is because though they sit deep, they have fantastic passing ability. Zokora doesn't have this, hence we end up playing so deep. The Hudd, does, but isn't sufficiently mobile and doesn't read the game as well as the other two yet. Gilberto is far less of a holding player than the others. And he also uses the ball very well.

The point I'm making is that we don't have a top 6 of the Premiership standard holding player, so we shouldn't try and play that system. The CM I have suggested suites the players we have far more than the system we are currently playing. JJ has all the attributes to play in a more deffensive role. He is only really our more attacking CM by default. He really doesn't have the game to play that role. He is much more suited to playing alongside a more attacking midfielder than a deffensive one. He is a good tackler and gets up and down the pitch really well, but he is never going to unlock the opposition with his passing in the final third. Let him play box to box, but change the emphasis of his game to be more deffensive oriantated. He is much more suited to a Keane/Vieira role, than a Gerrard role. All three of those players were box to box midfielders, but the Keane and Vieira were more deffensive minded and Gerrard is more attack minded. At the moment JJ is more Gerrard and we need him to be more Keane/Vieira. Malbranque could then be our Scholes.

 

[..Tee..]

Robinson​

Chimbonda Dawson Gardner Lee​

Lennon Tainio Malbranque Keane​

Berbatov Mido​

Depending on injuries, this would be the team id play for the next 5 league games. The back four pretty much speaks for itself, maybe replace Lee with Assou-Ekotto if need be.
Lennon needs to be played on the right, i think its plain to see that he hates being on the left, against the Arse he just wasnt in the game during the 2nd half so just keep him on the right.
Tainio for me is the only player we have willing to get into the opponents face and break play up, he isnt the greatest on the ball but i put him in the team because he gives 100% all the time and wont go missing during the game.
Malbranque is there for the forward runs and for the fact he seems to be the only one in the team that has managed to pass the ball forward.
We've tried every midfielder we have on the left and nobody has stepped up and got on with it, I think the only player who put any real effort into it was Keane against Chelsea, he ws my MOTM that game so should be given another crack at it.
We played the tall-man short-man up front and it just isnt working, trying to walk the ball into the net and the forwards being caught offside from 30 yard passes isnt going to win us games, so we need to get back to simple football and play to the strength we have. Berbatov and Mido can both score with their heads plus they can poach goals from 2 yards out, so simple, back to basic ,get the ball wide and cross it, style football is what i think we need to do.
We just dont have the talented playes that Arse, Man Utd etc have so its pointless trying to play that style of football, we need to start grinding out results and getting more attempts at goal, 5 or 6 a game is woefull for any premiership team.​

 

[Bill_Oddie]

Interesting stuff Joey.

I didn't quite get what you meant at first - thought I counted 12 players, which may actually be even more successful if we can get hold of the 'Bribing Ref For Dummies' textbook from Ashburton Grove - but on further examination it makes sense.

All 4 of those midfielders are good enough to fill the roles you outline.

The only problem is that I doubt this has been possible all season, hence the various different midfields we have put up with. Form and fitness have been so unpredictable and the system would not work with any of our other midfielders, so we're back in the shit.

Bit more tricky to work out what to do then isn't it? :lol:

 

[Mullers]

I think JJ has to be given more time, he has the qualities to develop into a top class midfielder but he has been injured for much of this season.

I thought about putting malbranque in CM but I'm not sure about him and JJ playing together there. JJ would have to be disciplined enough to hold his position when Malbranque goes forward and Malbranque will have to show discpline and hang back when JJ goes forward. I think I would prefer to see this in pre season rather than right now. TT and Davids performances on the left were underated but I think we need TT back in the middle because he does give the grit that we've been lacking and it will badly needed in our up coming games.

I would malbranque on the right for now and give Lennon a bit of rest and I would play BAE on the left I feel that BAE and Lee could work well together. Alternatively Lennon could play in a free role behind Berbs it would give defenders a nightmare and allow Lennon to develop as a striker.