The Spurs Youth Thread - 2017/2018

[gp13tot]

Not so sure there. Think Slipp will be much better, and there are others. I do not believe he can tie the laces of Josh’s boots for example, and some of us are split on him.

Sorry see above, msg in reply to you.

 

[Hercules]

Sorry see above, msg in reply to you.

Respect your views, but have to disagree.

 

[SpursD22]

When you see Kane coming out today and saying we need to be competing for trophies for him to stay and then you see the Arsenal game yesterday you can see why we didn't take too many chances even against 'lowly' Wimbledon. In fact you could argue that the Son sub was key to getting us through the game, and Kane got the vital goals.

Foyth and KWP (who has been criminally underused IMO) got minutes, Winks and Edwards were injured and CCV and Onomah are out on loan.

Poch definitely deserves criticism this season on the youth front but there is only so much we can do year on year. I'd say Wanyama and Lamela (and possibly Dembele) needed game time so the only missed opportunity there is in CM, but even then Winks would have likely played if not injured. I would have had a look at Skipp over Sissoko but I think Poch was clearly rattled at the backlash following the Carabao Cup exit. He has to fight a lot of different fires as manager. Kane probably wanted to play with a weeks break before the next game.

Poch chose Llorente over say Sterling, but this is likely because Llorente (as disappointing as he has been) needs game time/rhythm as he is likely to be called upon in future games.

I think this is why Poch called for changes to the subs bench in the PL. I think it'd be ideal for them to add 2-3 spaces for development squad players only. The FA should be all over this.

Is Poch being good with youth a bit of a myth? Possibly but there are limits to how much you can do each season as a top team. I don't think the club puts much stock in handing out token cup appearances personally. For my money Poch has misused Onomah and especially KWP this season but that's about it, aside from the Edwards mystery that I don't think any of us know the full extent of. Skipp is clearly class but is very young and in reality Winks is still being bedded into the side in midfield (I think he is class and pretty much established already, but I think people forget he's only had 12 PL starts).

TLDR - Have sympathy and patience with Poch this season, he is fighting a lot of fires and there is a lot at stake. He just couldn't take a risk with the FA Cup right now. I know you guys have a lot of faith in these young lads and want to see them involved, but I honestly don't think the club puts much stock in giving development players early one-off debuts these days, as good an experience as it can be for these young lads.

Nobody said that we should start with 5-6-7-8 academy players but to not have one on the bench is not acceptable imo. We could’ve had 1 or 2 players on the bench and when we were 3-0 up put them on instead of Nkoudou and Alli. And remember that our U21s “only” lost 4-3 to Wimbledon back in October. You can win games/trophies and still use academy players there shouldn’t be any excuses. And Poch has been here 4 years how long can we stay patient?

 

[Anuth]

We got Newport next round. another opportunity for youth players? or Dele Eriksen and Son on the bench again?

 

[IfiHadTheWings]

I would love to see the youth get a chance but my desire to see us win a trophy outweighs that heavily, i would go same team as Wimbledon even if it is ‘only’ Newport...after seeing Kane’s trophy comments we really do need to prioritise winning above all else thats not to say the youth couldnt step in and do a job or outperform the seniors but i feel this season we really need to give the Fa cup a real go.

 

[Anuth]

I would love to see the youth get a chance but my desire to see us win a trophy outweighs that heavily, i would go same team as Wimbledon even if it is ‘only’ Newport...after seeing Kane’s trophy comments we really do need to prioritise winning above all else thats not to say the youth couldnt step in and do a job or outperform the seniors but i feel this season we really need to give the Fa cup a real go.

I'm ok with the same team as Wimbledon match but we don't need all of Eriksen Dele or Son on the bench. Just 2 of them and Edwards or Stirling.

 

[danielneeds]

We got Newport next round. another opportunity for youth players? or Dele Eriksen and Son on the bench again?

If you think Poch is going to put a load of stiffs and kids in on a bobbly pitch, in wintry conditions, with a team right up for it, most probably on live TV, you haven't been watching his last two or three years. Rest a couple, but go strong, and we're one match from the QFs, and two matches from capitalising on "Wembley home advantage" in the cup this year.

 

[Hengy1]

If you think Poch is going to put a load of stiffs and kids in on a bobbly pitch, in wintry conditions, with a team right up for it, most probably on live TV, you haven't been watching his last two or three years. Rest a couple, but go strong, and we're one match from the QFs, and two matches from capitalising on "Wembley home advantage" in the cup this year.

We also have Man U 3/4 days later with Liverpool, Arsenal & Juventus followed so we will rest a few imo

 

[Blake Griffin]

I'm ok with the same team as Wimbledon match but we don't need all of Eriksen Dele or Son on the bench. Just 2 of them and Edwards or Stirling.

nah, best not. their mere presence may be enough to cause the first teamers to lose focus.

 

[Hercules]

Poch will put out a very strong team, not too far off yesterday. He wants to win it!

 

[SpursD22]

Poch will put out a very strong team, not too far off yesterday. He wants to win it!

I don’t mind him putting out a strong team but he should have at least one academy player on the bench so if we lead comfortably we can let him play some minutes

 

[coys200]

Has KWP ever played in midfield? Asking for a friend

 

[Trix]

I don’t mind him putting out a strong team but he should have at least one academy player on the bench so if we lead comfortably we can let him play some minutes

Players should only be picked if they deserve to play and it is right for their development at that time. Not saying there are academy players that don't deserve a shot but your post makes it sound like one should get a chance by default. Personally I didn't see the point of GKN getting a spot over others v AFC Wimbledon because it doesn't look like he is in the long term plans, but then, it is also important to keep all our squad players happy-ish when they are not playing regularly in the Prem.

Tough call for the manager, and lets face it he will get criticism whatever team he puts out, more so if that team fails to get the result.

 

[DCSPUR]

Skipp may well be better and ive high hopes for him but bayliss reminds me of carrick and that's good imo.

Amos wont make it here, nor duncan or marsh, whilst in the first team we have some serious midfield concerns at present. Taking a punt on a talent like this shouldnt impact on josh and skipp

and this is part of the complex discussion about academy v young players from outside the club

 

[Trix]

I'm ok with the same team as Wimbledon match but we don't need all of Eriksen Dele or Son on the bench. Just 2 of them and Edwards or Stirling.

If he does that, and doesn't give them minutes, how many posts before the inevitable "why pick them if he wasn't going to play them".

Again I'm not saying Poch shouldn't do it, just that he will be criticised whatever he does should the result not go swimmingly. At the end of the day it's the result that is of the most importance, and positive results are what he's paid to achieve.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Its pretty clear to me that the club know we need to start winning things. We've obviously decided this cup is the one, we'd probably have liked to have gone further in the Carabao but...that didn't pan out.

If you're not going to win the league, and I still think we're some way off of doing that, and we're not going to win the Champions League, we've actually got a better chance of doing that but its still unlikely, then this cup is our only option (bar the Europa - which we could well end up being in next season).

We took the piss out of the Gooners for a long time for treating top 4 like a trophy but they had a trophy cabinet jam packed with league titles and fa cups. Our trophy cabinet its much more sparse and we're starting to polish the league table at the end of the season like it counts as a trophy. It doesn't.

And Arsenal are a perfect example of how winning domestic trophies means absolutely fuck all to players that matter in terms of whether they stay at a club or not. And it won't even keep the manager in a job, or the fans from calling for his head, if results start going pear shaped soon after.

If and when a bigger club comes calling with an offer to treble their wages, the fact that they have just won cup with a club will rarely make any difference. Even winning the league might not. Winning cups doesn't really gloss over the truth about a club. Players and their agents know that if we win an FA Cup we aren't suddenly going to be a bigger club, paying uber wages and challenging seriously for the league and CL. Winning two FA Cups didn't make Sanchez want to stay at Arsenal, winning the league didn't make most of the Monaco team want too stay there another day, it didn't help Leicester keep Kante or stop Mahre from wanting to go, winning the League Cup didn't make Berbatoov think we were worth staying with, didn't stop ManU sacking LVG, and getting to their first cup final in decades, didn't stop VVD wanting to leave Southampton or Puel from getting the sack.

I think any coach that goes chasing cups to appease players or fans is making a rod for his own back.

 

[Trix]

And Arsenal are a perfect example of how winning domestic trophies means absolutely fuck all to players that matter in terms of whether they stay at a club or not. And it won't even keep the manager in a job, or the fans from calling for his head, if results start going pear shaped soon after.

If and when a bigger club comes calling with an offer to treble their wages, the fact that they have just won cup with a club will rarely make any difference. Even winning the league might not. Winning cups doesn't really gloss over the truth about a club. Players and their agents know that if we win an FA Cup we aren't suddenly going to be a bigger club, paying uber wages and challenging seriously for the league and CL. Winning two FA Cups didn't make Sanchez want to stay at Arsenal, winning the league didn't make most of the Monaco team want too stay there another day, it didn't help Leicester keep Kante or stop Mahre from wanting to go, winning the League Cup didn't make Berbatoov think we were worth staying with, didn't stop ManU sacking LVG, and getting to their first cup final in decades, didn't stop VVD wanting to leave Southampton or Puel from getting the sack.

I think any coach that goes chasing cups to appease players or fans is making a rod for his own back.

I agree with this on the whole but it's all about the fans and players seeing progression. For Wenger(for example) just winning the FA cup and finishing 4th is just par for the course now. They are not getting closer to winning the CL and are getting further away every year from winning the league. Yanited fans expect to be winning the league every other year at least due to past success, so anything less than that is not enough.

I think the project is still a big factor to most of our players staying, and they are aware that the new stadium is very much key to this and our progression. Certainly as far as competing for big name players and wages are concerned. Trophies even lesser ones would enforce that we are progressing though, and may buy us a bit more time as far as keeping them happy is concerned.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

If he does that, and doesn't give them minutes, how many posts before the inevitable "why pick them if he wasn't going to play them".

Again I'm not saying Poch shouldn't do it, just that he will be criticised whatever he does should the result not go swimmingly. At the end of the day it's the result that is of the most importance, and positive results are what he's paid to achieve.

It's not quite that simple though is it, if Poch's pay check was riding on winning every single game, he wouldn't have been able to get away with putting out some of the sides he's constantly put out in the Europa and domestic competition.

It's not beyond comprehension that Poch, Levy and McDermott discuss the need to develop and integrate - if we feel the potential of a kid is exceptional - and how best immediate, medium and long term goals of the club are best met, what the priorities are, and where there is room for compromise of result/performance etc.

And the bottom line is, academy players are rarely any compromise in isolation anyway. Performances suffer when we just rotate wholsale, even if we don't play a single academy player. West Ham eg.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I agree with this on the whole but it's all about the fans and players seeing progression. For Wenger(for example) just winning the FA cup and finishing 4th is just par for the course now. They are not getting closer to winning the CL and are getting further away every year from winning the league. Yanited fans expect to be winning the league every other year at least due to past success, so anything less than that is not enough.

I think the project is still a big factor to most of our players staying, and they are aware that the new stadium is very much key to this and our progression. Certainly as far as competing for big name players and wages are concerned. Trophies even lesser ones would enforce that we are progressing though, and may buy us a bit more time as far as keeping them happy is concerned.

I don't think winning the FA Cup would make a difference at all to any player who wants to move to an uber club. I think qualifying for the CL by finishing 3rd/4th would probably have more impact.

 

[Trix]

It's not quite that simple though is it, if Poch's pay check was riding on winning every single game, he wouldn't have been able to get away with putting out some of the sides he's constantly put out in the Europa and domestic competition.

It's not beyond comprehension that Poch, Levy and McDermott discuss the need to develop and integrate - if we feel the potential of a kid is exceptional - and how best immediate, medium and long term goals of the club are best met, what the priorities are, and where there is room for compromise of result/performance etc.

And the bottom line is, academy players are rarely any compromise in isolation anyway. Performances suffer when we just rotate wholsale, even if we don't play a single academy player. West Ham eg.

Of course but my point was not that they shouldn't get a chance in games like this(my personal opinion is that it's the perfect time to do so), but should things go wrong not having one of Son, Eriksen or Dele on the bench would be criticised by some if we were to lose, which was the post I was replying to. Fans will criticise a loss more than not playing youth players, and they will look to team selection first and foremost as the reason why in most cases.