This 'next level' that Harry can't take us to....

[Mullers]

:clap:
YES
That's the whole point - the opinion is based on where we are now, at Christmas. It isn't based on whether we consolidate on that position, or throw it away. It is an opinion based entirely on being in a title race and consdiered widely to be genuine title contenders, at Christmas.

Well I am sure you know why I disagree with that so I won't go over it again.

Well, no, because several posters, myself included, all said that based on where we are right now, at Christmas, we have moved up a level - so, I am voicing my opinion, and that of anyone who agrees with it.

My opinion could be proven wrong, and I am happy to wait and see if that is the casse...but I can't unhold in the future an opinion I hold now, now - can I. I can't wait until we finish 5th and then say "That opinion I held at Christmas 2012, well, it's been proven wrong so at Christmas 2012 I didn't hold it" can I, now. What I can do is say that I held an opinion that sounded good at the time, but hindsight has shown it to be foolish - and I am prepared to accept that.

But what you said was that we would change an opinion based on where we are at Christmas 2012, and held at Christmas 2012, into one based on where we finish in May 2013.

Some people could well do that.

In other words, it is impossible for us to hold an opinion based on now. You invalidated it...you didn't say retrospect may show it to be foolish.

Like I said the mere fact that the opinion is posted means that it isn't impossible to have an opinion based on now, regardless of how you interpret my post.

 

[StartingPrice]

Well I am sure you know why I disagree with that so I won't go over it again.



Some people could well do that.


Like I said the mere fact that the opinion is posted means that it isn't impossible to have an opinion based on now, regardless of how you interpret my post.

I think you have misunderstood that (or I haven't explained itz properly, or both). What I mean is, it is an impossibility to do that. We can't hold an opinion now based on our position now, but, in May 2013 see our final position, think the opinion we held looks a bit presumptive and travel back in time to Christmas 2012 and hold an opinion now based on our position in May 2013. That is impossible.

 

[SNAFU_Clarke]

You are confusing financial and football criteria.

incorrect. you are though.

 

[Mullers]

I think you have misunderstood that (or I haven't explained itz properly, or both). What I mean is, it is an impossibility to do that. We can't hold an opinion now based on our position now, but, in May 2013 see our final position, think the opinion we held looks a bit presumptive and travel back in time to Christmas 2012 and hold an opinion now based on our position in May 2013. That is impossible.

But I am not saying anything about travelling back in time, I am saying some people who have the opinion that we have taken a step up could change their mind in may.

 

[StartingPrice]

But I am not saying anything about travelling back in time, I am saying some people who have the opinion that we have taken a step up could change their mind in may.

But you are saying that an opinion stated at Christmas 2012 and based on our position at Christmas 2012 can be the same opinion, but actually based on our position in May 2013...and it can't. It has to be a totally new opinion, after accepting that the previous one was wrong. Look, if I say the fact that we are in a title race and considered by many to be title contenders at Christmas 2012, and based on our league position at that time, that league position, at Christmas 2012 isn't going to be altered, we are now and for all time going to be 3rd, with a gmae in hand, going into Christmas 2012. So, if that is what you are basing your opinion on at Christmas 2012, whatever happens after it is irrelevant. For you to say that they would change their opinion if we finished fifth, you are basically saying that any opinion formed at Christmas 2012 based on our league position at Christmas 2012, is invalid, otherwise you wouldn't be talking about it being contingent on whatever happens after. Ultimately, what you are saying is only opinions based on our position in May 2013 are valid, people who hold the opposite opinion just don't realise that yet...but will come May 2013.

How it works is that an opinion formed now based on our current position can't ever be wrong. It can be opposed by another opinion, and that's fine. But if I say we have moved up a level because we are in a title race and widely considered to be title contenders based on our position at Christmas 2012, we won't EVER have not been in the position we are now, not even if we subsequently finish fifth. We will now, and for always be 3rd with a game in hand at Christmas 2012. So, if I form an opinion that being in that position at Christmas 2012 shows that we have stepped up a level, you can choose to base your opinion on different criteria (i.e. what our final league position is). But you can't tell us we can't base our opinion on what our position is NOW. And you can't tell us our position now is suddenly a different position to what it is based on where we might, or, indeed, do, finish up in May 2013.

 

[bananafish]

You are confusing financial and football criteria.

As a club (Chairman, manager, previous managers, DOF etc) we have over achieved in our ability to assemble a team/squad. In other words, we find ourselves with a superior squad to some clubs who have spent more than us.

That is a separate issue to what that squad is capable of and what it actually achieves, because regardless of how the ended up in a spurs shirt, once they are then how much they cost (transfer and wages) is irrelevant to what they achieve in footballing terms.

It does not matter that we spent less acquiring our team, if we now accept that it is better than Arsenal's say, in terms of quality of personnel, then if we don't finish above Arsenal, we have under achieved.

Wenger and Arsenal are a perfect example of a club able to assemble superior teams and achieve more on the football field than clubs with bigger budgets at various times.

Tbh, I think we naturally tend to discount the quality of our rival's personnel, both out of bias and because we only see them on MOTD rather than the grunt work that they put in. In reality I think Arse, Chelsea, and United are at least on par with us in terms of squad ability. At the beginning of the season, I would've rated us sixth in terms of squad, and I haven't really budged because I think we've been lucky with key injuries and others have not.

Keep in mind that Arsenal have been in the top three highest wages for years and years, though they may be fourth now because of City. It's the wages that are correlated with finishing position, not net transfer spend.

Arse and United in particular have been able to spend years building a certain style of play under one manager. Don't discount the benefit of having the talent and years to establish a vision throughout the entire club, from the youth to the first team, from the coaching staff to the transfer selections. Rather than buy big name expensive players for the same of it, they've gone for players that fit their vision.

I think Harry's done well with what he has and has stabilized the ship, but after he goes I hope we find a long-term manager/DOF who can create a dynasty here and establish an imprint on our culture. The next level is establishing ourselves as a regular CL side. We've improved but we're not there yet, and I think we'll need a genius of a manager/DOF or a sugar daddy to get us there.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Tbh, I think we naturally tend to discount the quality of our rival's personnel, both out of bias and because we only see them on MOTD rather than the grunt work that they put in. In reality I think Arse, Chelsea, and United are at least on par with us in terms of squad ability. At the beginning of the season, I would've rated us sixth in terms of squad, and I haven't really budged because I think we've been lucky with key injuries and others have not.

Keep in mind that Arsenal have been in the top three highest wages for years and years, though they may be fourth now because of City. It's the wages that are correlated with finishing position, not net transfer spend.

Arse and United in particular have been able to spend years building a certain style of play under one manager. Don't discount the benefit of having the talent and years to establish a vision throughout the entire club, from the youth to the first team, from the coaching staff to the transfer selections. Rather than buy big name expensive players for the same of it, they've gone for players that fit their vision.

I think Harry's done well with what he has and has stabilized the ship, but after he goes I hope we find a long-term manager/DOF who can create a dynasty here and establish an imprint on our culture. The next level is establishing ourselves as a regular CL side. We've improved but we're not there yet, and I think we'll need a genius of a manager/DOF or a sugar daddy to get us there.

I think this is a truism. Generally many fans do over estimate spurs players and under estimate our rivals players. But I don't think I generally do this, and honestly think that our current first choice 11 is - personnel wise, on paper - on a par with Arsenal, Chelsea & manU or damn close.

BUt my point is that while it may be a truism that there is a correlation with wages paid and those clubs at the business end, it is possible to find yourself with a better squad than someone who has spent more than you, and once that is the case then wages are irrelevant, what is relevant is how those teams perform.

So are you saying we should replace Redknapp if we want to achieve the next level (if we can't get a sugar daddy that is) ?

 

[Mullers]

I find it difficult to understand your post but I am trying.

But you are saying that an opinion stated at Christmas 2012 and based on our position at Christmas 2012 can be the same opinion, but actually based on our position in May 2013...and it can't. It has to be a totally new opinion, after accepting that the previous one was wrong. Look, if I say the fact that we are in a title race and considered by many to be title contenders at Christmas 2012, and based on our league position at that time, that league position, at Christmas 2012 isn't going to be altered, we are now and for all time going to be 3rd, with a gmae in hand, going into Christmas 2012. So, if that is what you are basing your opinion on at Christmas 2012, whatever happens after it is irrelevant. For you to say that they would change their opinion if we finished fifth, you are basically saying that any opinion formed at Christmas 2012 based on our league position at Christmas 2012, is invalid, otherwise you wouldn't be talking about it being contingent on whatever happens after. Ultimately, what you are saying is only opinions based on our position in May 2013 are valid, people who hold the opposite opinion just don't realise that yet...but will come May 2013.

How it works is that an opinion formed now based on our current position can't ever be wrong.

It can be opposed by another opinion, and that's fine. But if I say we have moved up a level because we are in a title race and widely considered to be title contenders based on our position at Christmas 2012, we won't EVER have not been in the position we are now, not even if we subsequently finish fifth. We will now, and for always be 3rd with a game in hand at Christmas 2012. So, if I form an opinion that being in that position at Christmas 2012 shows that we have stepped up a level, you can choose to base your opinion on different criteria (i.e. what our final league position is). But you can't tell us we can't base our opinion on what our position is NOW. And you can't tell us our position now is suddenly a different position to what it is based on where we might, or, indeed, do, finish up in May 2013.

These are the bits you quoted

As I said repeatedly I will wait until the end of the season before assessing things, 2) I know there won't be too many people saying that we've gone a step up if we finish 5th. "


Sorry I don't understand how you got so much semantic stuff from those few lines, as far as I am concerned people put their opinions and I disagreed and people disagreed with me. It just seems that your pissed off because you perceive me as putting a forceful pessimistic opinions in this thread when you would just rather hear optimistic type posts instead.

 

[bananafish]

I don't think he should be sacked or anything but I expect him to step down soon because of his age and dreams of managing England. He's not really building for the long-term, both out of his professional goals and because he has less flexibility than a young manager like, say, AVB, who we'd back during the tough times because we'd judge him on his potential.

Harry is a "now" manager. He's got to achieve now, he can't afford transition seasons. This is reflected in his transfers - he's plugging the holes we have now, but his priority isn't securing a crop of younger players to fulfill a certain vision for the future. Sure we need to at least stay in CL contention or we might get left behind, but I think there are some things like rotation, organization, discipline, cultural change, and youth policy that will take birthing pains to pay future dividends.

There are certainly a lot of managers who have overachieved relative to spending+wages. The problem is, this is a completely different beast at the top than in the middle. Whenever you start out strong with a comparable squad, your rivals blow you out of the water in January! Being "equal" is a terribly fragile position.

Maybe another manager would have made better use of the money we blew on Keane and Crouch or unearthed random jewels from the Chilean league every January, but who knows? There are simply not that many Wengers or Dortmunds out there; heck, there's usually only one in every league. And even Arse have the advantage of an established worldwide reputation, while we're still the newcomers.

We have to think proactively. We have to buy proactively - it's astonishing how quickly the likes of Reus zipped out of our league and left us in the dust. We're facing a really big challenge in the future - with Harry or without him. If he leaves us with a side in the top four, money left in the warchest, and not too much dependency on old players, I think he's done his job. It's up to Levy to figure out how to achieve "the next level".

 

[fruitbat7]

Harry is a "now" manager. He's got to achieve now, he can't afford transition seasons. This is reflected in his transfers - he's plugging the holes we have now, but his priority isn't securing a crop of younger players to fulfill a certain vision for the future. Sure we need to at least stay in CL contention or we might get left behind, but I think there are some things like rotation, organization, discipline, cultural change, and youth policy that will take birthing pains to pay future dividends.

I think most managers have to be "Now" managers these days. If you under achieve you face losing your best players to bigger clubs, or losing your job all together. I completly agree with your sentiment, but unfortunatley that isnt the game anymore. It'll take a big cultural change for premier league clubs to look to youth development in exchange for quick success because money talks. The germans have really got it right over the last 5 years and should be something the league as a whole should look to

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Bale, Walker, Sandro, Lennon, Modric, Kaboul, hardly players who, should we be able to keep them, I expect to be anywhere but our first team in five years time. Doesn't sound that short term. Even Ekotto, Adebayor if we keep him, and VDV have a chance if they take care of themselves. In the meantime, Naughton and Caulker might well come into the mix, Rose is in the mix, and Carroll has just been given a long new contract so it's safe to say we hope there's a future for him with us. I think beyond the now is looking fairly healthy.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I think most managers have to be "Now" managers these days. If you under achieve you face losing your best players to bigger clubs, or losing your job all together. I completly agree with your sentiment, but unfortunatley that isnt the game anymore. It'll take a big cultural change for premier league clubs to look to youth development in exchange for quick success because money talks. The germans have really got it right over the last 5 years and should be something the league as a whole should look to

I agree with the sentiments too, but like you accept that the reality is at best you need to be running a "now" policy and a "future" policy in tandem (I was banging on about this a lot last season when it appeared we had stopped recruiting promising youngsters). But even in Germany there are a lot of impatient chairmen, and tolerance is not always much greater than the EPL.

 

[sloth]

I can't possibly reply to everyone so I'l just pick a couple of posts from old sparring partners and try and make some general points to all who criticise what I say...

I just don't see why you go out of your way to try and tell fellow Spurs fans that Redknapp isn't as good as the media or others make out, if they're enjoying it let them, it'll only take a couple of defeats and they will all change their tune anyway.

I just get the real impression that all of this is just personal and if we had one of your favourites like the great man himself, Mark Hughes, you would be trotting out the line "I'm the MD of a Sports Betting company etc etc and the stats tell me that he's the best manager since Bill Nicholson so that means it must be true blah blah blah" :lol:

The thread was titled: This 'next level' that Harry can't take us to.... which is reference to the point I and others have made over the months about Harry's perceived inability to take us to the next level, the suggestion in the OP is that recent months have shown the argument I and others have made to be proven wrong.

If that's not an invitation to repost and clarify my view I don't know what is :shrug:

I didn't start the thread or re-kindle the argument, nor did I back down from the friendly challenge, nor did I post that Harry is shit, should be sacked or that I wish we had someone else in instead.

At the start of the season, when we'd lost the first two games and there was a thread that Harry should be sacked I argued strongly that he shouldn't even if Ancelotti was available. That he had earned the right to prove his doubters wrong and that to do so would be counter-productive (people should also remember the context in which this argument was being made after a terrible end to the previous season and poor beginning to the current one).

I also made the strong point that everyone was over-reacting, that people's responses were knee-jerk and ill-thought out, that I still thought we had a good chance of top four or even third, but that if we didn't make it, if we finished sixth or seventh that should not de-facto be considered a failure, that in fact success or failure should be measured by a different more subtle metric.

Sloth - Living in blind faith? What are you on about? I'm living with facts. I'm talking about what has already happened? I'm talking about where we have been over the last 25 years and where we are now, under Harry. I'm not saying Harry will definitely win us the league, that's blind faith, I'm talking about what we have achieved under Harry in terms of results and, in the main, performances.

If you don't understand that paragraph then there's no point continuing this discussion. If you want to believe I think he's the messiah, great. I don't see that as a bad thing, considering. Im sure you would've had lots of criticism for Bill Nicholson too, even after the trophies, because that's the sort of person you are. You carry on living in your over analytical world and never really properly enjoy our successes and I'll be happy to do the opposite.

To answer your question, of course we could upgrade the team. And of course we could upgrade the manager in terms of big names. But why should we? Managers and players are different when it comes to upgrades - a manager can upgrade a player but that player remains at the club and can fight to regain his place, whereas a manager can't if he's upgraded. He's been nothing short of excellent for us and deserves every opportunity to carry on and prove he can become one of the top managers around.

I have no idea why you're asking about percentages. I love Levy but you seem to have the same blind faith you accuse me of. Levy didn't want Parker, that's well documented. Parker (along with Ade) is the main reason our season has turned. Anyway Levy has nearly always stumped up the cash for us when necessary and deserved massive credit. Harry has been absolutely pivotal in turning the club around (remember Levy has been here for ages and most of it has been unsuccessful until now). The squad, which Harry has helped accumulate, is obviously a massive part of all this too. So if I have to answer your weird question, I'll say they're all equal because none can work without the other, as well as it has.

The blind faith thing came after you suggested I was a doubter the implication being that people like me will always doubt and that this was a vice. I took on that accusation and in fact agreed with it, but contrasted it to the the alternative, blind-faith, making the point that I think doubt is a healthy approach to all things.

I also pointed out that enjoying to analyse things in the way that I do doesn't blunt the pleasure or the pain in fine victories or desperate defeats. But I guess you just don't believe that?

I'm not arguing that we should replace Redknapp (even if a so-called "upgrade" were to be available), or that he's shit, or anything of the sort, I've simply put an alternative case to the current "wisdom", which is soncistent with the case I've made over the last two and half seasons and which is not contingent on either a poor run of form or a good one, but on my observations.

People will of course disagree with what I think, they will have opposite opinions and think I'm blind, stupid or both, and all of that's fine, but to be crucified for daring not only to think differently, but to come on a message board and calmly and without insult set out why I think differently, is something else (not aimed particularly at you or SB here btw, but at the general tenor of some of the responses).

But anyway, it's a message board, and the rough and tumble is all part of it.

Last thing, I sincerely hope I am shown to be wrong about Harry, that we keep this run going to the end of the season, that the lack of rotation, and the lax attitude of some of our players when we don't have the ball I've seen to date and some of the poor selections and in-game tactics I've also seen don't start to bite us. I hope that all the good things I've seen, the examples of us developing, some of Harry's great in-game decisions, and signs that we can play without the ball at a similar level to how we do when we have it, I hope these become the norm and at the end of the season we're talking about how if we thought the first half of the season was amazing what about that second half!

 

[bomberH]

Fair points sloth. It won't come as a surprise that I don't agree with much of it! It still seems to me that you're after the perfect victory each game, with perfect tactics etc, meaning anything less is up for discussion/criticism (which of course, it is) but as I've said before, for me, it all boils down to perspective. If we'd been brilliant for years then I could understand some of the criticism more, but we've won nothing and pretty much done nothing for years so we should be proud and excited at what's currently happening here. Yours and BC's etc criticisms seem to me that they could all be levelled at any team in the PL, including Man U, City, Chelsea, Arsenal etc. Billionaires City aside, they've all been winning stuff for years, we're only just starting to get going. That's why it seems there's a lack of perspective.

And I still don't think you can enjoy a victory as much as the average fan :lol: Your personality, with regards to you being over analytical (maybe this has something to do with your job?) must cloud your enjoyment of the game because you're looking at other aspects of the game whilst most of us are just enjoying it.

 

[StartingPrice]

I find it difficult to understand your post but I am trying.

These are the bits you quoted

As I said repeatedly I will wait until the end of the season before assessing things, 2) I know there won't be too many people saying that we've gone a step up if we finish 5th. "


Sorry I don't understand how you got so much semantic stuff from those few lines, as far as I am concerned people put their opinions and I disagreed and people disagreed with me. It just seems that your pissed off because you perceive me as putting a forceful pessimistic opinions in this thread when you would just rather hear optimistic type posts instead.

Right, I'll try to explain it one last time.
The opinion you are opposing is that NOW based on where we are NOW in the TABLE we hold the opinion NOW that we have taken a step up NOW - because we haven't genuinely been in a title race, and considered by many in the game to be genuine title contenders, at Christmas, for decades. That is a step based on where we are NOW. It is not contingent on how the rest of the season pans out, or where we finish at the end of the season. It is an opinion held NOW, based on position NOW hsowing that NOW, at this precise moment we have NOW taken a step up.

By saying that we will change our opinion if we finish fifth, you are in effect, saying that the above is not really a valid opinion that people hold. You are refusing to accept it as such by refusing to accept that it is an opinion held NOW, that is not contingent upon any future developments. If you had accepted it as a valid opinion, not cintingent upon future developments, you wouldn't belive that anything in the future could change it, because it is an opinion held NOW. You must believe that either we don't really believe it, and therefore it is not a valid opinion, but an aspitration, or you that it is really contingent to future developments - which is in fact pretty much your opinion (you won't say until the end of the season). So, if we hold the opinion NOW, based on position NOW, but really believe it is contingent on future developments it isn't really an opinion held NOW, and based on position NOW.

It's that simple, really :grin:
Either you accept that we believe that our position NOW shows that we have taken a step up NOW, but disagree with it (which is fine), or, you don't believe that believing that our position NOW, based on our position NOW, is a valid opinion, which, for the reasons I have given, is basically what you said.

But, if I hold that opinion now, then even if we finish 5th, in May, I will still be saying that we took a step up by being in a title race, and considered genuine title contenders for so long, it's a pity it tailed off, but now we have to take that next step up and be genuine title contenders at the end (which may or may not be another step up from this season). But what I won't be saying is that an opinion held at Christmas 2011, based solely on our position at Christmas 2011, and not contingent on where we finish in May 2012, is suddenly contingent on where we finish in May 2012 after I see what that is and am disappointed in it (which I may be).

 

[Paolo10]

You're not some kind of visionary Sloth, especially when your thoughts are based on observations that the majority either don't share or don't agree with for the most part.

Harry can prove you wrong? Hasn't he already with the Top 4 finish, the QFs of the Champions League and the way the squad has developed? Besides win the League, what else can he fucking do really to get you to quit with your pessimistic bleating?

You can dress it up as you wish (as you often do with a wordcount that would make a philosophy student blush), but you're either negative or positive about HR's tenure and it's clear which side of the fence you sit on. I'm just thankful it appears you're in the minority.

 

[sloth]

Fair points sloth. It won't come as a surprise that I don't agree with much of it! It still seems to me that you're after the perfect victory each game, with perfect tactics etc, meaning anything less is up for discussion/criticism (which of course, it is) but as I've said before, for me, it all boils down to perspective. If we'd been brilliant for years then I could understand some of the criticism more, but we've won nothing and pretty much done nothing for years so we should be proud and excited at what's currently happening here. Yours and BC's etc criticisms seem to me that they could all be levelled at any team in the PL, including Man U, City, Chelsea, Arsenal etc. Billionaires City aside, they've all been winning stuff for years, we're only just starting to get going. That's why it seems there's a lack of perspective.

And I still don't think you can enjoy a victory as much as the average fan :lol: Your personality, with regards to you being over analytical (maybe this has something to do with your job?) must cloud your enjoyment of the game because you're looking at other aspects of the game whilst most of us are just enjoying it.

I swear to you Bomber I don't sit in a pub, watching the match and analysing every move and boring the tits off any poor sod unlucky to sit beside me (I save that for all the poor sods on this site :lol.

In fact I reckon that I even spend as much time on here praising and coming out with stuff like "that was fucking brilliant!" as I do with pointing out things I think are wrong, but ultimately, when you have a thread like this one, the purpose is to have a good argument and for people to come out with "I told you so's", and others to come back with "Oh no you didn't's!", then you're going to have these kinds of disagreements. In fact that's what message boards like SC are all about.

Probably, however, your buttons get pushed by people like me on threads like this one so it sticks in the memory more, and because we argue and stand up for our views they come across as more polarised than they are and get conflated into one long diatribe as if there weren't any contrast in between.

 

[guate]

Look out guys we're in danger of becoming wafflers Untd.

 

[StartingPrice]

Look out guys we're in danger of becoming wafflers Untd.

Nah, I'm a Lone Wolf...


...like Chuck Norris mg:

 

[Kendall]

He's going backwards.

We beat Chelsea in his first season, then again in 2009/10 at home. The last 2 seasons we've drawn.

We're supposed to be better and Chelsea are supposed to be shitter.

Harry out.