Tottenham: perennial underachievers

[mendesstormer]

Remember that point in the season (not so very long ago) when we beat Arsenal and were 1 point (?) ahead of the auld enemy? How's that looking right now? Remember HR's last season where we went into the NLD in spring some 8 points (?) ahead of them, with all and sundry predicting we would comfortably turn them over. We lost of course, and ended up trailing in behind them at the end of the season. Now look at the last 2 weeks and remember that we had 2 perfectly winnable games (against Burnley and Villa). 6 points from those 2 while Man City lost both of their fixtures and we would currently be sitting 1 point behind them, with a home game against them to come, i.e. everything to play for and our Champions League destiny comfortably in our own hands.
So, what is it about Spurs that we can't produce the goods when the key point of the season arrives, can't grind out the wins when the pressure point comes along? Well, you can make easy arguments about our relative strength vis a vis the top 4 or 5 clubs - less wealthy, arguably inferior squad, arguably inferior (read less experienced) manager. But it seems to me there's something much more fundamental at play. Look at Chelsea and Liverpool's last successes in the Champions League - vastly inferior squads somehow outplayed the opposition and landed the biggest prize. Why? - self-belief. Look at Man Utd in several of their more recent Premier League wins - objectively not the strongest team or squad, but they ground out the wins and in some cases easily won the title. But when do Spurs defy the odds and reach beyond the level expected by their relative wealth? I'm not convinced it's a failing of the managers or the squad, or even the structures of the club. There seems to be something in our DNA that defines us as a club that accepts second best, with a sprinkling of attractive football and the odd cup run here and there. We don't really expect to win any of the big prizes, and until we start believing that we absolutely deserve to win a few major trophies nothing is going to change. (Oh yes, and we ought to start by signing a couple of players with that winning mentality who are capable of dragging the current squad to a higher level of achievement. This should be the top priority for the summer, above filling any particular position in the squad, above signing any flavour of the month player, let's sign someone who really knows how to win and accepts nothing less.)

 

[Monkey boy]

In other news the world is round.

 

[Gb160]

has your return/enter button broke mate?

 

[Spurger King]

I think the club has a reputation as being a bit of an easy touch, and something of an ideal holiday camp for players. It's not so much that it's ingrained in the club mentality, it's more to do with the way players (both our own, and the opposition) perceive us.

The opposition will always expect us to crumble. Losing 2-0 to Spurs? Just get one back and watch them panic.

Our own players are probably aware of the reputation of the club. The problem is that we offer all of the luxuries of being a team rich in history, the London lifestyle, the opportunity for players to advertise themselves on the European stage, good wages, and a state of the art training ground. However, the expectations are low.

We've had a steady stream of players that might bother to put in a decent performance once in every 6 games, but are happy to coast through the rest of the games. Other players see us as a stepping stone, so bother to make the effort on a regular basis so they can go somewhere that offers meaningful opportunities to win things.

I don't think it's any real surprise that our most successful team in years was one where the players could look around the dressing room and think "wow, this is actually a pretty good team...I better pull my weight."

As soon as those players started leaving or retiring (Modric, King, VDV, Bale) what effect is that going to have on the players remaining? I'll be shocked if Lloris hasn't at least considered the fact that he's surrounded by average players and deserves better. Eriksen (who I put in the 'one decent performance in six' category) probably looks around the dressing room and sees the likes of Townsend, Chadli, Walker, Paulinho, and Mason, and thinks "jeeesus...how bang average is this lot?"

Keep selling our best players and downgrading and it's only going to have a negative effect on the mentality of the squad. I'm sure Levy would point out (as Harry did) that "this is as good as it gets" but settling for second best all the time just creates a sense of apathy in the players and fans alike.

 

[dontcallme]

Redknapp was trying to end the old "soft touch Spurs" element of our club. He signed Palacios, Gallas, Parker etc and wanted to Bring in Neville.

He wanted to stop our soft centre and also bring in experienced players who know how to grind out results and also see a 2-0 scoreline stay that way until the 90 minutes.

The danger of that is you can be left with an ageing squad.

It seemed AVB didn't want the big characters as much.

We have 2 directions we can go:

Create a playing style which the whole team is on board with.

Bring in big characters who are up for a battle.

Mason, Rose and Kane have shown they have a fighting spirit and Poch seems to like that.

At the moment I just don't think we're particularly good and don't seem to work especially well as a team, opposing teams are able to take advantage of this.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

At the moment I just don't think we're seem to work especially well as a team, opposing teams are able to take advantage of this.

Hitting the head of the nail with a fudgeing nuclear bombe, mate.

 

[Firekid]

Remember that point in the season (not so very long ago) when we beat Arsenal and were 1 point (?) ahead of the auld enemy? How's that looking right now? Remember HR's last season where we went into the NLD in spring some 8 points (?) ahead of them, with all and sundry predicting we would comfortably turn them over. We lost of course, and ended up trailing in behind them at the end of the season. Now look at the last 2 weeks and remember that we had 2 perfectly winnable games (against Burnley and Villa).

Was that not when we dropped both dembele and lamela? Maybe had something to do with it?!

 

[worcestersauce]

I would suggest that the clubs that have achieved higher league positions and European success all have vastly greater financial resources than our club and that is the telling factor, i would also suggest that in that case it is wrong to say we are underachievers, we haven't achieved what we all want to achieve but we have actually achieved what we should be expected to achieve.

 

[dricha1]

I think it's been proven that 9 times out of 10 the final league positions are in order of wages paid more do at the top.

The only way we can break the cycle is to start paying higher wages (unlikely) or to hope for a golden generation of youth to come through. This can't just be a Kane and a Bentaleb, but at least 6 or 7 all coming through the ranks at once similar to United had with Scholes, Beckham et al.

Of course this requires a lot of luck, patience and not selling them off.

 

[dontcallme]

I think it's been proven that 9 times out of 10 the final league positions are in order of wages paid more do at the top.

The only way we can break the cycle is to start paying higher wages (unlikely) or to hope for a golden generation of youth to come through. This can't just be a Kane and a Bentaleb, but at least 6 or 7 all coming through the ranks at once similar to United had with Scholes, Beckham et al.

Of course this requires a lot of luck, patience and not selling them off.

Throughout the 90s we had a high net spend and a low wage budget. If I'm not mistaken we didn't finsih above 7th in the first decade of the Prem.

Levy's introduction changed this around and stopped putting our money into the black hole of high transfer fees for players nearing their 30s. Our wage bill has consistently increased over the last decade. As a result we have regularly finished in the top 6 and signed France's number one, Ajax captain etc.

The Baldini signings wouldn't be low wage earners.

Some fans want us to now spend out on transfer fees like this is the only way to back the manager, personally I disagree.

If we sell Kaboul, Capoue, Lennon, Soldado, Adebayor and one or two others and make 3 positive signings I'd be happy this summer even if our net spend on transfer fee is negative.

 

[dricha1]

Throughout the 90s we had a high net spend and a low wage budget. If I'm not mistaken we didn't didn't above 7th in the first decade of the Prem.

Levy's introduction changed this around and stopped putting our money into the black hole of high transfer fees for players nearing their 30s. Our wage bill has consistently increased over the last decade. As a result we have regularly finished in the top 6 and signed France's number one, Ajax captain etc.

The Baldini signings wouldn't be low wage earners.

Some fans want us to now spend out on transfer fees like this is the only way to back the manager, personally I disagree.

If we sell Kaboul, Capoue, Lennon, Soldado, Adebayor and one or two others and make 3 positive signings I'd be happy this summer even if our net spend on transfer fee is negative.

We are 6th highest wage payers and we finish around 6th.

I want us to be well run and don't necessary want to splurge on shiney new transfers. What I said was, to break the mould, we are likely to do it from a golden generation of youth players hitting the first team at the same time. Unfortunately this takes time and patience isn't our forte.

 

[Greenspur]

I am not sure that our (relative) lack of wealth can explain results like the Villa or West Brom defeats. Yes, all teams have the odd surprise loss - but nowhere near as many as we seem to do.
If we picked up even half the 'unexpected' dropped points, we would be in a CL position.

 

[dontcallme]

We are 6th highest wage payers and we finish around 6th.

I want us to be well run and don't necessary want to splurge on shiney new transfers. What I said was, to break the mould, we are likely to do it from a golden generation of youth players hitting the first team at the same time. Unfortunately this takes time and patience isn't our forte.

True, my post was adding to what you were saying rather than agreeing or disagreeing with you.

 

[shelfmonkey]

I would suggest that the clubs that have achieved higher league positions and European success all have vastly greater financial resources than our club and that is the telling factor, i would also suggest that in that case it is wrong to say we are underachievers, we haven't achieved what we all want to achieve but we have actually achieved what we should be expected to achieve.

This is EXACTLY the half hearted, mediocrity acceptance the OP is outlining, a far too easy excuse!!
Athletico Madrid have less financial resources than us!! Look at what they've achieved, and note how Eddie Howe has got a small bunch of league one players performing and playing better football than anything we've served up for years!!!!

 

[Wheeler Dealer]

Athletico Madrid have less financial resources than us!!

The big difference they have in their favour is a manager who is a proven winner.

 

[kungfugrip]

I think it's been proven that 9 times out of 10 the final league positions are in order of wages paid more do at the top.

The only way we can break the cycle is to start paying higher wages (unlikely) or to hope for a golden generation of youth to come through. This can't just be a Kane and a Bentaleb, but at least 6 or 7 all coming through the ranks at once similar to United had with Scholes, Beckham et al.

Of course this requires a lot of luck, patience and not selling them off.

....and really good senior pros for them to play with. Imagine if we'd had Mason to learn from playing with Davids, Kane to learn from Berbatov etc. Ok you could then argue the younger players wouldn't get in the team as often, but you know where i'm coming from.

 

[mendesstormer]

In other news the world is round.

Oh, piss off

 

[mendesstormer]

I think the club has a reputation as being a bit of an easy touch, and something of an ideal holiday camp for players. It's not so much that it's ingrained in the club mentality, it's more to do with the way players (both our own, and the opposition) perceive us.

The opposition will always expect us to crumble. Losing 2-0 to Spurs? Just get one back and watch them panic.

Our own players are probably aware of the reputation of the club. The problem is that we offer all of the luxuries of being a team rich in history, the London lifestyle, the opportunity for players to advertise themselves on the European stage, good wages, and a state of the art training ground. However, the expectations are low.

We've had a steady stream of players that might bother to put in a decent performance once in every 6 games, but are happy to coast through the rest of the games. Other players see us as a stepping stone, so bother to make the effort on a regular basis so they can go somewhere that offers meaningful opportunities to win things.

I don't think it's any real surprise that our most successful team in years was one where the players could look around the dressing room and think "wow, this is actually a pretty good team...I better pull my weight."

As soon as those players started leaving or retiring (Modric, King, VDV, Bale) what effect is that going to have on the players remaining? I'll be shocked if Lloris hasn't at least considered the fact that he's surrounded by average players and deserves better. Eriksen (who I put in the 'one decent performance in six' category) probably looks around the dressing room and sees the likes of Townsend, Chadli, Walker, Paulinho, and Mason, and thinks "jeeesus...how bang average is this lot?"

Keep selling our best players and downgrading and it's only going to have a negative effect on the mentality of the squad. I'm sure Levy would point out (as Harry did) that "this is as good as it gets" but settling for second best all the time just creates a sense of apathy in the players and fans alike.

Absolutely agree with most of this. But ... I think your first sentence sums up exactly why it IS ingrained in the club mentality. That's how we're viewed by potential players and opposition players. That's why we don't improve (much).

 

[mendesstormer]

I would suggest that the clubs that have achieved higher league positions and European success all have vastly greater financial resources than our club and that is the telling factor, i would also suggest that in that case it is wrong to say we are underachievers, we haven't achieved what we all want to achieve but we have actually achieved what we should be expected to achieve.

Yes, but the point is that year after year we put ourselves in a position where we could actually challenge for the big prizes (not the title, obviously but EL qualification at least) but we blow it a crucial moment.

 

[worcestersauce]

This is EXACTLY the half hearted, mediocrity acceptance the OP is outlining, a far too easy excuse!!
Athletico Madrid have less financial resources than us!! Look at what they've achieved, and note how Eddie Howe has got a small bunch of league one players performing and playing better football than anything we've served up for years!!!!

Perhaps if we'd had greater financial resources than all but two other clubs we'd have done better in the league and I'me not going anywhere near the Bournemouth experience, I just hope they make it to the Prem it'd be superb.
As I said, it's not been what I wanted but to have done more would be over achieving, I want to over achieve, but we failed to do that, I just don't think less than that is underachieving.
I'd have loved for ENIC to have come in and splashed the cash but they didn't and you can't claim the lack of megalomaniacs blowing a fortune leads to underachievement it just doesn't lead to the success we want.
In short its all too bloody easy to claim we've underachieved, anyone can do that at any club, even Chelsea, City and United because they haven't done more with their resources
I don't include Arsenal in that list because their underachievement is real and self evident.