Tottenham Takeover Talk

[bc205]

Why the need for this?
Do you feel better for it?

What's the problem with his post? He wasn't aggressive or insulting, he was just responding to another poster. His post made a lot of legitimate points, that are a part of this discussion.

I get that some people are uncomfortable, and quite defensive, about debating the hypocrisy around this investment, but it's a perfectly valid topic for discussion. Especially as it was the original poster who brought it up. Why shouldn't people respond to him about it?

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

What's the problem with his post? He wasn't aggressive or insulting, he was just responding to another poster. His post made a lot of legitimate points, that are a part of this discussion.

I get that some people are uncomfortable, and quite defensive, about debating the hypocrisy around this investment, but it's a perfectly valid topic for discussion. Especially as it was the original poster who brought it up. Why shouldn't people respond to him about it?

More focus on the topic and less focus on SC members will make the forum better.

 

[McFlash]

Yeah I do. I’d absolutely hate it if this investment goes through, couldn’t be more against it. Other fans support it and that’s their prerogative but those of us on the other side are under 0 obligation to pretend that this isn’t hypocritical.

As far as I can see this thread is to discuss the potential takeover, it’s not a support group for people who are feeling guilty about that.

If we’re going to sell our club to these sorts of people we can at least be honest about it and what it means. If you’re going to come on here and post about how you really want the takeover to happen but feel two faced about it, sorry but you might get some people agreeing with you about that.

That's fine, there are people on both sides of the debate but I just don't really see the need for individual criticism, or personal attacks.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm not really happy about it but it's completely out of my control, so I'm not going to get angry about it, nor am I going to pour scorn on fellow supporters who may be all for it.

I've lived a pretty long life so far and over that time, I've learnt a lot and changed a lot.
My views now don't align with my views 20 years ago.
We should be free to live and learn, to change our minds without fear of having our moral standpoint called into question by people who don't even know us.

 

[McFlash]

What's the problem with his post? He wasn't aggressive or insulting, he was just responding to another poster. His post made a lot of legitimate points, that are a part of this discussion.

I get that some people are uncomfortable, and quite defensive, about debating the hypocrisy around this investment, but it's a perfectly valid topic for discussion. Especially as it was the original poster who brought it up. Why shouldn't people respond to him about it?

See my response to him above.

 

[bc205]

More focus on the topic and less focus on SC members will make the forum better.

But whether you like it or not, the reaction of the fanbase to a potential takeover, and the hypocrisy evident in much of that, is part of this topic.

 

[bc205]

See my response to him above.

Where was the personal attack?

Pointing out that someone is being a hypocrite is not a personal attack. The original poster even admitted that he was being a hypocrite on this issue. So how is agreeing with that a personal attack?

I can understand why the conversation around hypocrisy makes some people uncomfortable, especially the ones who have changed their positions on this. But i think some of you guys are being overly defensive and maybe taking the discussion more personally than it is being meant.

 

[Lifelong]

Past the point of caring where the money comes from…….bring it on I say……….

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

Past the point of caring where the money comes from…….bring it on I say……….

Oi! careful..............

 

[SheffieldAndy]

But whether you like it or not, the reaction of the fanbase to a potential takeover, and the hypocrisy evident in much of that, is part of this topic.

There’s a lot of hypocrisy involved around the whole of the subject. It’s seeming to be used as a way to make other people feel bad (on both sides, ‘you don’t care about human rights’, ‘you’re not a true fan’ both kind of sides of it), when in reality, I think the majority of fans didn’t give a single monkey about the oil and gas countries and their human rights records until they got involved in the league.

 

[Vdvaart80]

The pressure on levy is going to be massive over the next few weeks and it’s probably going to get pretty toxic if say we lose tomorrow, play shite and get turned over by city, sign no one or shite before window closes and then Tottenham announce record profits in February!

 

[McFlash]

Where was the personal attack?

Pointing out that someone is being a hypocrite is not a personal attack. The original poster even admitted that he was being a hypocrite on this issue. So how is agreeing with that a personal attack?

I can understand why the conversation around hypocrisy makes some people uncomfortable, especially the ones who have changed their positions on this. But i think some of you guys are being overly defensive and maybe taking the discussion more personally than it is being meant.

Maybe you've got a thicker skin than me but I find calling someone you don't know a hypocrite, or questioning their morals is a bit personal.

If I'm being a dick, call me a dick and I'll probably agree with you but to question someone's moral fibre over something like this (which isn't actually a big deal) leaves a nasty taste in my mouth.

There have been plenty of decent and informative posts in this thread, as there has also been some honesty. Good points made from both sides.
Then there has been some judgemental posts that aren't really productive in any way.

 

[bc205]

There’s a lot of hypocrisy involved around the whole of the subject. It’s seeming to be used as a way to make other people feel bad (on both sides, ‘you don’t care about human rights’, ‘you’re not a true fan’ both kind of sides of it), when in reality, I think the majority of fans didn’t give a single monkey about the oil and gas countries and their human rights records until they got involved in the league.

I'm not deliberately trying to make anyone feel bad about this. But at the same time there is a lot of hypocrisy in the debate around this investment. There's nothing wrong in pointing that out. I haven't questioned anyone else's personal morals, or said that they are lesser fans, at any point.

If some posters are feeling bad about being hypocritical on this subject then that is something for them to deal with. It's not my fault that they are being hypocritical, and it's a legitimate issue to discuss. Especially when those same posters have been criticising and judging Man City and Newcastle fans for doing exactly the same thing that they are now doing.

 

[whitesocks]

How would a minority investment allow us to buy more/better players? If they buy £1bil of Joe Lewis's shares, then that money is going towards a new yacht. He is simply cashing in on his original investment. It is not income for the club.
Of course there are naming rights, but why should they pay over the odds for that? If anything, after giving Joe a nice profit, they might expect to get naming rights on the cheap.
??

 

[HildoSpur]

How would a minority investment allow us to buy more/better players? If they buy £1bil of Joe Lewis's shares, then that money is going towards a new yacht. He is simply cashing in on his original investment. It is not income for the club.
Of course there are naming rights, but why should they pay over the odds for that? If anything, after giving Joe a nice profit, they might expect to get naming rights on the cheap.
??

Um. I don't think they would be investing so Uncle Joe can buy a new yacht mate

 

[bc205]

Maybe you've got a thicker skin than me but I find calling someone you don't know a hypocrite, or questioning their morals is a bit personal.

If I'm being a dick, call me a dick and I'll probably agree with you but to question someone's moral fibre over something like this (which isn't actually a big deal) leaves a nasty taste in my mouth.

There have been plenty of decent and informative posts in this thread, as there has also been some honesty. Good points made from both sides.
Then there has been some judgemental posts that aren't really productive in any way.

Again, where did i question someone's moral fibre?

I genuinely don't believe that calling someone a hypocrite is a personal attack. No one is perfect and it is part of human nature to be hyprocritical occasionally. I have certainly been a hypocrite many times in my life, and will be again.

Surely we should be able to discuss this issue without people taking everything so personally?

 

[SheffieldAndy]

I'm not deliberately trying to make anyone feel bad about this. But at the same time there is a lot of hypocrisy in the debate around this investment. There's nothing wrong in pointing that out. I haven't questioned anyone else's personal morals, or said that they are lesser fans, at any point.

If some posters are feeling bad about being hypocritical on this subject then that is something for them to deal with. It's not my fault that they are being hypocritical, and it's a legitimate issue to discuss. Especially when those same posters have been criticising and judging Man City and Newcastle fans for doing exactly the same thing that they are now doing.

Oh don’t get me wrong, I’m not calling anyone out. But there has been a lot of hypocrisy as you say. I’ve eluded to and flat out mentioned it in my earlier posts detailing all the businesses these states are involved in and people don’t care and will continue to use but won’t allow it for something like football.

 

[bc205]

Oh don’t get me wrong, I’m not calling anyone out. But there has been a lot of hypocrisy as you say. I’ve eluded to and flat out mentioned it in my earlier posts detailing all the businesses these states are involved in and people don’t care and will continue to use but won’t allow it for something like football.

Yeah, fair enough. You're right, there is a lot of hypocrisy in this debate. I'm sure that many people would consider me to be a hypocrite for continuing to bank with Barclays while objecting to this investment. Which is fair enough. I consider this investment to be a personal red line due to the sportswashing angle, but everyone will have different moral lenses and opinions on what is hyocritical in this situation.

 

[SheffieldAndy]

I think a pertinent point or question might be, to everyone aghast with sportswashing (and not), were you aware of the issues before they tried to wash them? Or has their attempted washing brought those issues to a wider audience?

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

How would a minority investment allow us to buy more/better players? If they buy £1bil of Joe Lewis's shares, then that money is going towards a new yacht. He is simply cashing in on his original investment. It is not income for the club.
Of course there are naming rights, but why should they pay over the odds for that? If anything, after giving Joe a nice profit, they might expect to get naming rights on the cheap.
??

A couple of thoughts.

First, if they come in as a minority shareholder, one objective would be improve the investment. This is not a cashflow generating investemnt - meaning they are not looking for dividends, they are looking to grow the value of the club. On their own, Levy/ENIC have done about as much as they can to grow the value, without requiring further investment. So, new investment is needed to grow THFC.

Second, with that in mind, they will want contractual assurances on how the money will be used, and certainly some will go directly to Lewis/Levy, a sizable portion will be required to be used on the Club (or in development of surrounding real estate - which still provides a monetary benefit to the football operations, just not as direct.

 

[McFlash]

Again, where did i question someone's moral fibre?

I genuinely don't believe that calling someone a hypocrite is a personal attack. No one is perfect and it is part of human nature to be hyprocritical occasionally. I have certainly been a hypocrite many times in my life, and will be again.

Surely we should be able to discuss this issue without people taking everything so personally?

You may not but maybe they do?
As we've learned so much in recent years, it's not so much how the comments are meant but how they are received.