Tottenham Vs Liverpool: Match Thread

[TottenhamMattSpur]

Thats not what was said in the post I quoted though so why go off on a completely different tangent. The original post that I was replying to stated that any manager who presided over a 5-0 defeat should lose their job. Duh

No, you quoted MY post. My post said clearly that no manager that's seen a 6 and 5 goal thrashing should be allowed to stay in his job.

The rest was just to place further emphasis on how fucking wank he is.

 

[guy]

Just saw the highlights again, we were very lucky it wasnt 8-0. HORRIBLE

 

[Mutha Hubbard]

I understand why people are commenting that spending £100m piles the pressure on AVB. I'm still undecided on him as a manager, however, king, bale, modric and vdv were four of the best players ever to wear the shirt. We could have spent £500m an not adequately replaced them. How many of the current squad do you guys think we'll be able to put in their bracket in five years time? (Genuine rather than sarkily rhetorical question).

 

[gorky]

No, you quoted MY post. My post said clearly that no manager that's seen a 6 and 5 goal thrashing should be allowed to stay in his job.

The rest was just to place further emphasis on how fucking wank he is.

Ah, fair enough, your initial post wasn't particularly well written then, but never mind

I agree with you.

 

[spivmaster]

Just saw the highlights again, we were very lucky it wasnt 8-0. HORRIBLE

Braver man than me

 

[Sweetsman]

In regard to spending money, I agree, I never mentioned it. Why keep substandard players? And then the serial complainers would have moaned about tight-arse Levy hoarding money and not reinvesting. I am happy that we did reinvest, and, for what it's worth, I still believe that in the long term we reinvested well.

If you mean AVB had no choice but to accept his lot, it is a bit of an obscure point: if you mean he had little choice but to sell Bale, much as I hate saying it, I agree. If you mean he had little choice but to have Dawson here, no, I disagree. If you mean he had little choice but to have Kaboul here, hell, I wanted him back to his best, so I can understand that from AVB, but there was well-respected ITK (that I seriously tried to ignore) that Kaboul is the new Ledders. So, knowing that we might only have 3 operational centre-halves, it is on his head, and slightly negligent, to keep hold of Dawson, especially seen as we all know he couldn't play a high defensive line for toffee. So, really, that left us with two fully fit options - and then to so engineer things that there was a good chance that one of them was going to be playing left-back - well, frankly, that is negligent/ And even then, I don't think the high line is a problem in itself. It is a tactic, a slightly hairy tactic at times, but a tactic none-the-less, that saw us accumulate a fair few clean-sheets, even with Dawson who isn't really suited to it. He also chose to have Capoue, who can play in defence - but when his personal choices have left us in a situation where there is any possibility that we may be left with a centre-half who can't play the high line and a midfielder then I'm afraid the options are simple: either don't make the options in the first place that could leave you in that situation, or don't ask these particular two, when paired, to play a high line. And that is the crux of it - would it really have been so hard to just instruct Daws and Capoue to not try to play the high line, just for this game?

FWIW, I still think we have a great squad.

Liverpool's recent record at the Lane is not really relevant: they had injury worries of their own and player by player on the pitch, and comparing the squads as a whole, I believe we compare favourably to them. But that didn't matter shit today. We were at home, but they looked more motivated, they were quicker to every ball, they were more direct, they worked harder - they just simply outplayed us - and IMHO we had a better team and where at home.

My heart agrees, it would be crayzee to sanction that spending and the whole building process, accepting that there will be wobbles on the way, and then sack him. I like AVB and have always wanted him to succeed, and even after the Citeh result was one of the more circumspect posters on here - I don't believe in change on a whim. But the bottom dollar is I, myself, a lay-person, could list several contributory factors that all flow back to decisions that AVB made. I have either supported those decisions or, at least, tried to explain the logic of them (even if I didn't whole-heartedly agree with them). But he, himself, is responsible, he is the head coach, and some of those decisions just don't add up.

For example, and to restate it: I spoke out for Benny when he was injured not long after joining us when quite a few on here (yes, even some of those mewling after him now, like an Israelite pining for the onions of Egypt). But I could see that he was too laid-back for AVB last year, and he may have worked fine combining with bale on the left but he didn't provide the attacking outlet down the flank for AVB. Now that is fine, and at this point I am more than happy to support his decision to send Benny out on loan. And he made it clear that he considered Rose/Fryers to be sufficient to cover the left, with Verts to fall back on in emergency. And it was damned unlucky that he had placed so much faith in Danny Rose (again, a player I always supported on here). But when that happened, to ignore Fryers and either draft-in Verts who is really needed elsewhere, or Naughton who is a right-back and just doesn't work - well, frankly, that shouts loud-and-clear that he didn't really believe that Fryers was sufficient cover for Rose, with Verts capable of drafting-in in the unlikely event that Rose and Fryers are injured (which would not be likely to be for long). So why did he say he was? Why did he not just put up with Benny or sell him outright and buy effective cover/competition for Rose? And why not have a recall option for Benny, unsavoury as that may be to him personally? And that is precisely where I part company with him - if he believes that Fryers is sufficient cover for Rose, fine. But if he clearly didn't.

These are decisions he has made. And decisions like this leave us with situations like the one we have today: he kept Fryers on the bench, even though he is a left-back (so he doesn't trust him or consider him acceptable cover for Rose), and plays Naughton on the left, even though he is a right-back - and not only is Rose horribly exposed, but he has to waste one of our substitutions in order to try to rectify it - bringing on Fryers after all.

This isn't how I want to see it, it is just how it is. And I'll say again, my heart hopes that he will stay, turn things around and in six months the genuine knee-jerkers will feel a little bit silly. But my head says he really has cooked his goose, and ultimately, bad luck contributed, a truly awful referee contributed, but in the final analysis this is down to decisions he has made that left us with a horribly unblanaced team, and, particularly, two players at centre half that he should have just plain, plum, gawwdamm couldn't play a high line, so he should have told them to drop deeper.

Unlike some, I just find it deeply saddening as I truly thought AVB could take us to the next level, I believe he has the squad to do so, and, most depressingly of all, I believe that maybe, just maybe, if he weathers this he still could. But I can't really defend him from any decision to sack him because his decisions have led to increasingly dour performances (acceptable in itself when we are winning) and several humiliating defeats, culminating in one today against rivals who have a weaker squad than us and have finished below us for four seasons running. And I will reiterate, if Liverpool finish in the CL spots this season they will get a cash hit and a kudos hit that can revive them from where they have fallen, and putting us back 8 years (not that I would rule out Everton and United, of course, from the CL spots). And that rests on AVB, he has the squad to be finishing above them for a fifth season, but this game could have made their season and ruined ours and, to repeat, it comes down ultimately to decisions he has made.

The reason for mentioning the Liverpool score was that one season ago we beat them 4-0, but now they have a settled team and formation, and in Suarez the equivalent of Bale. I don't think it was the high line that was the problem, it was pace and especially on the left fullback of our side. I don't think we had much purchase from the ref. The Little Englanders are out in force on TalkShite, bemoaning the passing of Redknapp and highlighting that AVB didn't deserve to be at either Chelsea or Spurs. They never mention the fact that we also did HR a favour when we appointed him, because no big club has been in for him.

 

[Monkey boy]

For the third time this season I'm genuinely embarrassed to go into the office this morning. The Newcastle defeat I could stomach because on another day we'd have won but today I just feel sick!! So many pool fans in my office just waiting for me to come in and try to defend the in defendable.

Things could get messy shortly!! Wankers the lot of them.

 

[TottenhamMattSpur]

My manager is a Liverpool fan and I sit next to him.

I think I could do almost anything today and he wouldn't sack me because mocking me would be more fun.

 

[SpurSince57]

The reason for mentioning the Liverpool score was that one season ago we beat them 4-0, but now they have a settled team and formation, and in Suarez the equivalent of Bale. I don't think it was the high line that was the problem, it was pace and especially on the left fullback of our side. I don't think we had much purchase from the ref. The Little Englanders are out in force on TalkShite, bemoaning the passing of Redknapp and highlighting that AVB didn't deserve to be at either Chelsea or Spurs. They never mention the fact that we also did HR a favour when we appointed him, because no big club has been in for him.

Sorry, but last season the score was 2-1. It was two years ago that we beat them 4-0.

It is not just yesterday's fiasco. Have we had a really good day at the office all season?

 

[mpickard2087]

Just saw the highlights again, we were very lucky it wasnt 8-0. HORRIBLE

I think 8-0 is an understatement, it very easily could have been double figures!

 

[spurslenny]

I'm gonna listen to the full force of one Mr A Durham tearing AVB a new one.

Talksport, 4pm gmt for those with the same sadistic tendencies as me.

 

[teok]

Good article by Michael cox about AVB tactics (or lack of tactics) for yesterday's game http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/dec/15/tottenham-liverpool-tactical-analysis

It's crazy how every one can see this. What was avb expecting to happen?

 

[postigol]

I'm gonna listen to the full force of one Mr A Durham tearing AVB a new one.

Talksport, 4pm gmt for those with the same sadistic tendencies as me.

More masochistic you mean?

 

[spurslenny]

More masochistic you mean?

That too

 

[postigol]

AVB can't help missing our best center back pair and best and only good left back through injury

Well, yes he can - he could go into the season with more than 1 left back, he could not freeze BAE out of the team or get a replacement in if he decided to go and freeze him out. Even with centre halves he was adamant he'd have 4 rather than 5 in the squad.
Or, saddled with a defensive midfielder playing a makeshift centre half role and our slowest establisted centre-half as our defensive pairing, along with an RB playing at LB, maybe AVB might have had the wits to realise we were not best placed to play a high defensive line against a goal threat like Suarez and the pace of Sterling.

 

[OnTheUp]

He's gone...brilliant, now we can move forward!

 

[StartingPrice]

The reason for mentioning the Liverpool score was that one season ago we beat them 4-0, but now they have a settled team and formation, and in Suarez the equivalent of Bale. I don't think it was the high line that was the problem, it was pace and especially on the left fullback of our side. I don't think we had much purchase from the ref. The Little Englanders are out in force on TalkShite, bemoaning the passing of Redknapp and highlighting that AVB didn't deserve to be at either Chelsea or Spurs. They never mention the fact that we also did HR a favour when we appointed him, because no big club has been in for him.

Yes, they have a settled team and formation, and they kept their match-winning player (the cheating fooking mole-rat ****) - but I have always made allowance for AVB on this basis. It is not just the 7 new players, in one way or another we have an essentially new squad. So I have made, and advocated, a lot of patience. But this is the third utterly humiliating defeat in pretty quick succession, and attibutable directly to decisions he has made that he could have made differently, and a certain lack of flexibility in regard to the high line IMHO.

The high line isn't generally the problem - but it was yesterday specifically because with their pace he sent out a central defence including one defender who knew at the start of last season not to be suitable to the high-line and one central midfielder playing in the centre of our defence for the second time, due specifically to decisions he has made about the central defenders in the squad. On top of this, deceisions he has made have meant we have ended up with a right-back who we all know can't play at left back...playing at left back. The centre of our defence playing a high line they just don't have the pace or ability to play, combined with a woefully inadequate left-back meant that they were carving through us like a hot knife through butter - it was truly embarrassing.

We got zero purchase form the ref, I hurt my throat shouting at him, and if there was any justice in the World that man would be facing an investigation for the total partiality he showed <calm down, SP, calm down>. But that does not alter the fact that they were capable of carving through our defence like a hot knife through butter based squarely on decisions AVB has made. Would any of those refereeing decisions have altered the course of the game? I don't know, I really don't. It would have been nice to have found out - but my gut feeling is that they would still have been able to carve through our defence like a hot knife through butter, based on decisions AVB has made.

I can't speak for anyone on TalkShite. I can tell you that there are several threads dealing with Mr Redknapp, and in them I explain in full exactly why, IMO, it was the right time to replace him. I was neither pro nor anti RatKnip. We did him a favour, and he gave us some good times in return - but also some dour dross the like of which AVB has been castigated for to the high heavens, and he showed himself to be tactically inept on occasions, and spouting that things were as good as it could get for our club was not what DL or ourselves want or expect. But this is not about comparing AVB and RatKnip, for me, it is clearly and plainly about decisions that AVB has made that let inexorably to a sickening and embarrassing defeat against a rival club, at home. And they are pretty basic decisions to be making.

 

[Sweetsman]

Yes, they have a settled team and formation, and they kept their match-winning player (the cheating fooking mole-rat ****) - but I have always made allowance for AVB on this basis. It is not just the 7 new players, in one way or another we have an essentially new squad. So I have made, and advocated, a lot of patience. But this is the third utterly humiliating defeat in pretty quick succession, and attibutable directly to decisions he has made that he could have made differently, and a certain lack of flexibility in regard to the high line IMHO.

The high line isn't generally the problem - but it was yesterday specifically because with their pace he sent out a central defence including one defender who knew at the start of last season not to be suitable to the high-line and one central midfielder playing in the centre of our defence for the second time, due specifically to decisions he has made about the central defenders in the squad. On top of this, deceisions he has made have meant we have ended up with a right-back who we all know can't play at left back...playing at left back. The centre of our defence playing a high line they just don't have the pace or ability to play, combined with a woefully inadequate left-back meant that they were carving through us like a hot knife through butter - it was truly embarrassing.

We got zero purchase form the ref, I hurt my throat shouting at him, and if there was any justice in the World that man would be facing an investigation for the total partiality he showed <calm down, SP, calm down>. But that does not alter the fact that they were capable of carving through our defence like a hot knife through butter based squarely on decisions AVB has made. Would any of those refereeing decisions have altered the course of the game? I don't know, I really don't. It would have been nice to have found out - but my gut feeling is that they would still have been able to carve through our defence like a hot knife through butter, based on decisions AVB has made.

I can't speak for anyone on TalkShite. I can tell you that there are several threads dealing with Mr Redknapp, and in them I explain in full exactly why, IMO, it was the right time to replace him. I was neither pro nor anti RatKnip. We did him a favour, and he gave us some good times in return - but also some dour dross the like of which AVB has been castigated for to the high heavens, and he showed himself to be tactically inept on occasions, and spouting that things were as good as it could get for our club was not what DL or ourselves want or expect. But this is not about comparing AVB and RatKnip, for me, it is clearly and plainly about decisions that AVB has made that let inexorably to a sickening and embarrassing defeat against a rival club, at home. And they are pretty basic decisions to be making.

I can't argue against any of your points, which are well made. Anyway, he's gone now.

 

[ibbz]

I wish AVB luck.
he needs a smaller team with less pressure so he can actually give himself time to build up his way with the right type of player.
In retrospect, he was not the right man for Spurs.
I was hoping for a Brian Clough like second coming, and for AVB to prove a point to everyone, but alas, nay, he failed and humiliated us - we were title contenders but we are now a laughing stock.

 

[StartingPrice]

I can't argue against any of your points, which are well made. Anyway, he's gone now.

Indeed.
As said, I am deeply disappointed, and even up to before yesterdays game was hopeful that we could finally get continuity with a head coach who had some serious tactical acumen. But I just lost the will to defend him after yesterday (which is, of course, different to actively wanting him out - I wish folk would stop acting jubilant over another set-back for our club).

I still think we have bought well, I still believe we have a very good and capable squad. It just needs to be harnessed properly. Oh well, a new start around the corner - unless we sign Rafa the Gaffer :-O