SlickMongoose
Copacetic
- Feb 27, 2005
- 6,258
- 5,043
Welcome to the plateau!
- Thread starter Harry_Snatch
- Start date
Kendall
Well-Known Member
- Feb 8, 2007
- 38,502
- 11,933
Give over.
If a player has a couple of bad games, the wolves are out for him.
Just look at the comments our fans are throwing at Siggy.
Kendall
Well-Known Member
- Feb 8, 2007
- 38,502
- 11,933
Have you read any of the Harry Kane threads?
Walker and Naughton have had roastings. Lennon was getting ripped to bits on here in his third season when he was 20!
Bale written off etc.
michaelden
Knight of the Fat Fanny
- Aug 13, 2004
- 26,469
- 21,848
Until our new grounds start breeding players like La Marca or the Young Eagles academy we will just tick over nicely as we have done.
I know its a moot point now but IF we had got the Olympic stadium and been allowed to redevelop it as we wanted, we would be the Crown of London & the UK within 5 years. An 80K seater stadium in the heart of the city with great transport links and easy access internationally, we'd be better than Wembley (minus the aura of course). And a team, pushing for honours, tickets at £60-80 with attendances averaging 60K we'd be raking it in, allowing better wages for players and therefore better players willing to come.
60,000*£60=£3,600,000 per home game *estimated (that's no hospitality in there)
I do hope the stadium design allows for future expansion should the transport to the area be improved
I know its a moot point now but IF we had got the Olympic stadium and been allowed to redevelop it as we wanted, we would be the Crown of London & the UK within 5 years. An 80K seater stadium in the heart of the city with great transport links and easy access internationally, we'd be better than Wembley (minus the aura of course). And a team, pushing for honours, tickets at £60-80 with attendances averaging 60K we'd be raking it in, allowing better wages for players and therefore better players willing to come.
60,000*£60=£3,600,000 per home game *estimated (that's no hospitality in there)
I do hope the stadium design allows for future expansion should the transport to the area be improved
Gilzeanking
Well-Known Member
- May 7, 2005
- 6,141
- 5,084
Reckon you are getting a tad carried away K . Theres always disagreement over each player's merits . I feel certain you could claim that every player we have ever had has been 'ripped to bits' at some point . Equally every player has been praised to the skies at some point ....this is called having a discussion in a footie forum .
You're being over dramatic imo .
Also looks like we're due a timely reminder that Spurs fans are exactly like other team's fans . The bizarre idea abroad here that somehow we are worse , is a strange delusion that rears its ugly bonehead every now and again .
Surplus to requirements imo .
Harry_Snatch
Well-Known Member
- Jul 16, 2009
- 1,532
- 1,099
- Thread starter
- #46
don't get too excited but I think you have misunderstood me and we actually agree on something.
I am saying the fans are idiots for jumping on Siggy's back. The club should be ignoring that shit and signing players like that. Specifically a striker in a similar career stage to Siggy instead of MAYBE trying to appease the fans with bs chases of marquee strikers like Damiao who has been the Brazil no 9 until recently.
Riandor
COB Founder
- May 26, 2004
- 9,424
- 11,651
The club doesn't buy players to appease the fans, it buys them for the manager to win games.
If a target has been identified that can take the club forward, no matter whom, then the club will try.
Personally whilst i am obviously unhappy that we don't succeed, are you saying we should stop trying? Should we stop trying to win the league too because it's bloody unlikely?
No.
I would have liked another striker, but let's look at this objectively here just right now. If the targets we had in mind other than Leandro would only have been stop gaps and a possibly BETTER player could be available if we continue our push into the top 4 and stay there, is it not worth the gamble?
Adebayour is now back, Defoe possibly only a couple of weeks away... Did people people really want us to splash 8-10m on a sub?
It's a very fine line. But the manager and chairman have to make a decision based on what they have and what they think they can achieve with what they have. If both think they can get Cl regardless, then we as fans have to back that decision for now and see what happens.
If we do get CL with what we have, then that money we didn't spend in Jan is there and plus some for the summer and we are a more attractive proposition for players who didn't want to leave their clubs in the winter.
We cannot afford to drop 8-10m on a player we might not use and might want to sell in a season or two because all of a sudden we have made the leap and can't give them game time, or worse, could then have a marquee player but can no longer afford them because our squad is bloated with squad players we can't shift.
The only players we need now are up and coming talent or 1st team replacements. If none are available, you wait.
Look at our wage bill in comparison to other teams and look at our league position. Look again.
We're doing fine. Let's not get overly impatient here... onh and don't forget FFP and Scudamore wanting to impose point deductions. Sound spending will see us right, AS LONG AS clubs that flaunt it are punished.
Kalim
Pakispur
- Dec 10, 2006
- 1,285
- 996
I was agreeing with you until you came to the bit about "hasn't had an opportunity to find any form", unless I am unaware of injuries he has been carrying since he made his plaing return.
I do agree he gets a lot of stick, but so do Walker, Naughton and even Caulker recently and they all have relative inexpirience, and in the case of Naughton & Caulker playing out of position [right footed players playing left sided].
I think it's a case of our fans being impatient.
Spurs1960
Well-Known Member
- Jul 26, 2011
- 2,424
- 1,220
To be a success at anything you aim high. Fans who want us to aim lower and fans who want us to win something but don't realise they are proposing a route that will ensure we don't.
I would rather we aim to be one of life's successes not failures and you only achieve that by aiming high.
The grass is not always greener, you buy to improve not just to fill spaces and appease supporters.
We are adopting the right policy, aim high for players who can make a difference.
Buying a prospect sends us backwards, I'd rather go forwards.
I would rather we aim to be one of life's successes not failures and you only achieve that by aiming high.
The grass is not always greener, you buy to improve not just to fill spaces and appease supporters.
We are adopting the right policy, aim high for players who can make a difference.
Buying a prospect sends us backwards, I'd rather go forwards.
Spurs1960
Well-Known Member
- Jul 26, 2011
- 2,424
- 1,220
Arsenal fans did warn us that as soon as he signs a contract his attitude changes and he doesn't try anymore.
So far they have been spot on. He couldn't even be bothered to come back from Africa for a week to prepare for a game for us.
van_Pommel
Well-Known Member
- May 10, 2004
- 3,063
- 998
What's the Young Eagles academy?
michaelden
Knight of the Fat Fanny
- Aug 13, 2004
- 26,469
- 21,848
Benfica's youth academy. Not as prolific now as it was but still good nonetheless. Saying that Sporting Lisbon's academy isn't too shabby either.
Ionman34
SC Supporter
- Jun 1, 2011
- 7,182
- 16,793
Crystal Palace I think
Francis Gibbs
Well-Known Member
- Jul 17, 2012
- 4,326
- 4,569
i tend to define a couple as two .......
Adam456
Well-Known Member
- Jul 1, 2005
- 4,462
- 3,128
Somehow I must have missed this thread appearing on the front page over the last 10 days but suffice to say there are 2 obvious points:
1. You could easily have said we'd reached a plateau 6-7 years ago but we have gone from challenging for a hopeful UEFA spot in 7th to regularly challenging 3-4th. What has changed ? Has our revenue magically risen compared to our competitors ? No. Our methods changed - we bought a large number of players for the future whilst generally not wasting big fees on old players and we are seeing the fruits of that now
OK you say. But now we've done that are we at a a plateau again ? No. The next thing we've done is build an enormous state-of-the-art training complex. This should enable us to identify, attract and train players from an earlier age (and, therefore in general, more cheaply). We should see the fruits of that over the next 4-5 years
OK but after that are we at a plateau ? Well no again because the next thing after that will be a new stadium. This will double our revenue overnight and allow us to compete for/retain world-class players. Will we be a big as Ushited (who will realistically continue to be the benchmark as FFP curtails Chelsea and Citeh) ? No not for a long time. But then go to point 2
2. Are we over-achieving for our revenue ? Yes. Here's a cool graphic at the top of the Financial Fair Play blog:
http://www.financialfairplay.co.uk/
We finished above Chelsea and Liverpool last season and 1 point behind the scum. We are in a similar position this season, arguably challenging for second, despite having only the 6th highest revenue (and more importantly wage bill) by some margin. Is there any reason to believe that we can't keep overachieving ?
If we guesstimate quite conservatively from that graph that we are overachieving by, say, 30% now, what position might we be in, if after completing the new stadium we overachieve by just 10% (using the development route we've set up and just good management). We have 4 points against the league leaders this season and let's face it United tend to get a bonus 5-10 points per season from favourable refereeing which I think will eventually be eliminated by replays/other technology
The bottom line is that the only 'plateau' we will face is if/when we are regularly winning the Prem and the Champions League. I think I'll happily cross that bridge when we come to it
1. You could easily have said we'd reached a plateau 6-7 years ago but we have gone from challenging for a hopeful UEFA spot in 7th to regularly challenging 3-4th. What has changed ? Has our revenue magically risen compared to our competitors ? No. Our methods changed - we bought a large number of players for the future whilst generally not wasting big fees on old players and we are seeing the fruits of that now
OK you say. But now we've done that are we at a a plateau again ? No. The next thing we've done is build an enormous state-of-the-art training complex. This should enable us to identify, attract and train players from an earlier age (and, therefore in general, more cheaply). We should see the fruits of that over the next 4-5 years
OK but after that are we at a plateau ? Well no again because the next thing after that will be a new stadium. This will double our revenue overnight and allow us to compete for/retain world-class players. Will we be a big as Ushited (who will realistically continue to be the benchmark as FFP curtails Chelsea and Citeh) ? No not for a long time. But then go to point 2
2. Are we over-achieving for our revenue ? Yes. Here's a cool graphic at the top of the Financial Fair Play blog:
http://www.financialfairplay.co.uk/
We finished above Chelsea and Liverpool last season and 1 point behind the scum. We are in a similar position this season, arguably challenging for second, despite having only the 6th highest revenue (and more importantly wage bill) by some margin. Is there any reason to believe that we can't keep overachieving ?
If we guesstimate quite conservatively from that graph that we are overachieving by, say, 30% now, what position might we be in, if after completing the new stadium we overachieve by just 10% (using the development route we've set up and just good management). We have 4 points against the league leaders this season and let's face it United tend to get a bonus 5-10 points per season from favourable refereeing which I think will eventually be eliminated by replays/other technology
The bottom line is that the only 'plateau' we will face is if/when we are regularly winning the Prem and the Champions League. I think I'll happily cross that bridge when we come to it
I also really disagree with the premise of the thread, and can only see us thriving more and more in coming years...
If we buy just 3 new players this summer; a top class striker , a controlling midfielder and high quality wing cover; we could (on current form projections) expect challenge for the league title, and based on how we did 2 years ago in the champions league, and this year in the Uefa, we could even reasonably project 1/4 finals there.
Chelsea and City squads are clearly weakening and as FFP bites (and it already cut the big spending their managers threatened pre-January into being net-sellers after the window). Their main hope of salvation comes through the youngsters they have bought & loaned out and hope to bring through; however we have more promising prospects than them coming through at all levels down to u16 judging by results and itk sentiment. We might even finish above Chelsea once again this year and even City are not out of sight in the league any more and they soon face a 30m payoff to replace Mancini/ pay off his replacements club.
How many City players would replace ours? Only Kompany, Toure (thought it is not so clear he's beter than Sandro) , Silva and Aguero (perhaps Zabaleta next year will remain more consistent than Walker...but the development curve is against him). Mostly mercenaries too, who will want to escape a sinking ship....Arsenal are the ones I worry about....But I digress!!!...
A team of Lloris, Bae, Vert, Kaboul--Sandro,Moutinho,Dembele--Lennon,Damiao,Bale lacks nothing in quality, experience, physicality and personality and if they continue to be systematically drilled into AVB's vision they won't lose many games and will dominate position regularly and be able to physically match anyone. With its oldest players just 27 hat team is young enough to finish the decade together too, and won't need further big spending for years (by when we should have paid off our stadium and generating big profits.
To get 3 suitable players is both reasonable and affordable even now- Robert Lewandowski ,Damiao, Negredo, Benteke, Soldardo are all likely to be available for under 20m (and selling Defoe who'll still be just 30 can offset 6-7m of that).
Moutinho will go this summer with just two years left on his deal, and he wont cost much more than 20m either.
And as for wing cover, Nani in his final year of his deal, or the promising Min Son will both go for 10m or less.
Depressing as the repeated stalled attempts have been I have no reason to doubt their sincerity or financial viability, and with champions league football to offer that we will succeed in finally bringing in Leandro or similar; along with Moutinho or similar this summer. This is an expectation rather than a fantasy at this point in our clubs evolution IMO.
By spending 50m (on the v high side), and easily being able to reclaim over half of that based on reported bids we just turned down (Sig- 10m+, Hud 5m, Parker 3m...Naughton 5m, Defoe 7m etc)- i.e. 20m odd net, we would instantly become authentic title challengers imo and could expect a decent champions league run.
Nor would a premiership proven 'reserve' 11 of Friedle-Rose-Caulker-Dawson-Smith Livermore-Holtby-Carol Dempsey-Ade-Nani lack anything in depth either.
Furthermore we could call on the best u21's in the league to bolster us, having this season gathered top-flight experience under their belt (Townsend,Kane,Mason,Prichard,Frier,Parret,Hall,Archer etc). There is much less 'deadwood' blocking their development paths, with the expiring contracts of considerable wages like Gallas, Cudecini, Gomes, (Parker, Hud,) Jenas, Bentley, joining Pav, King and Dos Santos - 10 players that cost us wages of 25m+/year; that have left in the last year and who added very little of substance to our team during that period.
In terms of our future funding needs, Champions league football conservatively brings an extra £40m/year, as does next years New TV deal, and a conservative estimate for a 58k stadium and corporate seats is 30m extra per year. We can expect to turn last years turnover of 150m/ year into 230m next year, and expect to push £300m after 2016 when the stadium is complete and our Sponsorship deals are renegotiated in this new financial context.
The big question....the big unknown... is how to pay for the Stadium while still keeping Bale... It will be a tight squeeze, to find another 250m to pay for it, but it can be done when you look at our presently shrinking debt figure and rising net assets (with the accounts for 2013 likely to show a net figure approaching 100m if present trends continue)...I am just guessing but with tens of millions coming (27m?) from government subsidies, a much bigger sum from Sainsbury’s, and the option of naming rights (which most conservatively will raise 100m and probably double) we will only need to take a small loan, much of which can perhaps be repaid by 2017 with the profits from a yupified housing development.
And at that point 3-4 years from now, while we won't have the turnover to outgun Man U, Bayern, Arsenal, Juventus, Real or Barca, in the spending stakes; we should have the biggest 'FFP authenticated' turnover outside of these 'super 6'. And at that point if we still have the stability of AVB, Bale and the majority of our above squad remains together + the present fabled generation of u18 super-kids actually comes through to bolster them; then we can compete with the world within 3-4 years both on the pitch, financially off of it and in terms of Stadium/Training facilities too.
If we buy just 3 new players this summer; a top class striker , a controlling midfielder and high quality wing cover; we could (on current form projections) expect challenge for the league title, and based on how we did 2 years ago in the champions league, and this year in the Uefa, we could even reasonably project 1/4 finals there.
Chelsea and City squads are clearly weakening and as FFP bites (and it already cut the big spending their managers threatened pre-January into being net-sellers after the window). Their main hope of salvation comes through the youngsters they have bought & loaned out and hope to bring through; however we have more promising prospects than them coming through at all levels down to u16 judging by results and itk sentiment. We might even finish above Chelsea once again this year and even City are not out of sight in the league any more and they soon face a 30m payoff to replace Mancini/ pay off his replacements club.
How many City players would replace ours? Only Kompany, Toure (thought it is not so clear he's beter than Sandro) , Silva and Aguero (perhaps Zabaleta next year will remain more consistent than Walker...but the development curve is against him). Mostly mercenaries too, who will want to escape a sinking ship....Arsenal are the ones I worry about....But I digress!!!...
A team of Lloris, Bae, Vert, Kaboul--Sandro,Moutinho,Dembele--Lennon,Damiao,Bale lacks nothing in quality, experience, physicality and personality and if they continue to be systematically drilled into AVB's vision they won't lose many games and will dominate position regularly and be able to physically match anyone. With its oldest players just 27 hat team is young enough to finish the decade together too, and won't need further big spending for years (by when we should have paid off our stadium and generating big profits.
To get 3 suitable players is both reasonable and affordable even now- Robert Lewandowski ,Damiao, Negredo, Benteke, Soldardo are all likely to be available for under 20m (and selling Defoe who'll still be just 30 can offset 6-7m of that).
Moutinho will go this summer with just two years left on his deal, and he wont cost much more than 20m either.
And as for wing cover, Nani in his final year of his deal, or the promising Min Son will both go for 10m or less.
Depressing as the repeated stalled attempts have been I have no reason to doubt their sincerity or financial viability, and with champions league football to offer that we will succeed in finally bringing in Leandro or similar; along with Moutinho or similar this summer. This is an expectation rather than a fantasy at this point in our clubs evolution IMO.
By spending 50m (on the v high side), and easily being able to reclaim over half of that based on reported bids we just turned down (Sig- 10m+, Hud 5m, Parker 3m...Naughton 5m, Defoe 7m etc)- i.e. 20m odd net, we would instantly become authentic title challengers imo and could expect a decent champions league run.
Nor would a premiership proven 'reserve' 11 of Friedle-Rose-Caulker-Dawson-Smith Livermore-Holtby-Carol Dempsey-Ade-Nani lack anything in depth either.
Furthermore we could call on the best u21's in the league to bolster us, having this season gathered top-flight experience under their belt (Townsend,Kane,Mason,Prichard,Frier,Parret,Hall,Archer etc). There is much less 'deadwood' blocking their development paths, with the expiring contracts of considerable wages like Gallas, Cudecini, Gomes, (Parker, Hud,) Jenas, Bentley, joining Pav, King and Dos Santos - 10 players that cost us wages of 25m+/year; that have left in the last year and who added very little of substance to our team during that period.
In terms of our future funding needs, Champions league football conservatively brings an extra £40m/year, as does next years New TV deal, and a conservative estimate for a 58k stadium and corporate seats is 30m extra per year. We can expect to turn last years turnover of 150m/ year into 230m next year, and expect to push £300m after 2016 when the stadium is complete and our Sponsorship deals are renegotiated in this new financial context.
The big question....the big unknown... is how to pay for the Stadium while still keeping Bale... It will be a tight squeeze, to find another 250m to pay for it, but it can be done when you look at our presently shrinking debt figure and rising net assets (with the accounts for 2013 likely to show a net figure approaching 100m if present trends continue)...I am just guessing but with tens of millions coming (27m?) from government subsidies, a much bigger sum from Sainsbury’s, and the option of naming rights (which most conservatively will raise 100m and probably double) we will only need to take a small loan, much of which can perhaps be repaid by 2017 with the profits from a yupified housing development.
And at that point 3-4 years from now, while we won't have the turnover to outgun Man U, Bayern, Arsenal, Juventus, Real or Barca, in the spending stakes; we should have the biggest 'FFP authenticated' turnover outside of these 'super 6'. And at that point if we still have the stability of AVB, Bale and the majority of our above squad remains together + the present fabled generation of u18 super-kids actually comes through to bolster them; then we can compete with the world within 3-4 years both on the pitch, financially off of it and in terms of Stadium/Training facilities too.
dricha1
Well-Known Member
- Jul 26, 2005
- 1,312
- 2,584
Somehow I must have missed this thread appearing on the front page over the last 10 days but suffice to say there are 2 obvious points:
1. You could easily have said we'd reached a plateau 6-7 years ago but we have gone from challenging for a hopeful UEFA spot in 7th to regularly challenging 3-4th. What has changed ? Has our revenue magically risen compared to our competitors ? No. Our methods changed - we bought a large number of players for the future whilst generally not wasting big fees on old players and we are seeing the fruits of that now
OK you say. But now we've done that are we at a a plateau again ? No. The next thing we've done is build an enormous state-of-the-art training complex. This should enable us to identify, attract and train players from an earlier age (and, therefore in general, more cheaply). We should see the fruits of that over the next 4-5 years
OK but after that are we at a plateau ? Well no again because the next thing after that will be a new stadium. This will double our revenue overnight and allow us to compete for/retain world-class players. Will we be a big as Ushited (who will realistically continue to be the benchmark as FFP curtails Chelsea and Citeh) ? No not for a long time. But then go to point 2
2. Are we over-achieving for our revenue ? Yes. Here's a cool graphic at the top of the Financial Fair Play blog:
http://www.financialfairplay.co.uk/
We finished above Chelsea and Liverpool last season and 1 point behind the scum. We are in a similar position this season, arguably challenging for second, despite having only the 6th highest revenue (and more importantly wage bill) by some margin. Is there any reason to believe that we can't keep overachieving ?
If we guesstimate quite conservatively from that graph that we are overachieving by, say, 30% now, what position might we be in, if after completing the new stadium we overachieve by just 10% (using the development route we've set up and just good management). We have 4 points against the league leaders this season and let's face it United tend to get a bonus 5-10 points per season from favourable refereeing which I think will eventually be eliminated by replays/other technology
The bottom line is that the only 'plateau' we will face is if/when we are regularly winning the Prem and the Champions League. I think I'll happily cross that bridge when we come to it
Nice of you to drop in Mr Levy, er sorry, Adam! ;-)
Bus-Conductor
SC Supporter
- Oct 19, 2004
- 39,837
- 50,713
Do you really think this ?
Here's a list of players we didn't pay a fortune for that we may not all like or rate highly but have represented the club (some many, many times):
Current examples:
Lloris, Walker, Dawson, Vertonghen, Kaboul (first time), Ekotto, Lennon, Sandro, Bale, Adebayor, Holtby.
All good value.
Yes, but many fans wouldn't have liked it even had Levy been successful in his bid. I'm from the school that one has got to move on if it's better in the long term.
Harry_Snatch
Well-Known Member
- Jul 16, 2009
- 1,532
- 1,099
- Thread starter
- #60
I think thats the point we signed all of these bar Hugo and Ade before they made their name. All of them for under 15m. We don't have the ability or will at board level to complete sigings above that range. When it comes ti strikers, it's very rare that you get an established striker for less than 15m, so we should take a punt on a striker in a similar mould to these guys when we signed them.
