West Brom Vs Tottenham: Match Thread

[leffe186]

I'm guessing that someone else has mentioned it, but does anyone else think that Harry was just using this as a dry run for Tuesday? No doubt we will line up 4-5-1 then, and although it wasn't the right formation for today it allowed people like VDV and Gallas to bed in. Problem is, Pav was poor and Modders got injured - if it wasn't for that I think we'd have won comfortably.

 

[philbcn]

Absolutely agree 100%

I'm with both of you on this

 

[Ledders Army]

I'm guessing that someone else has mentioned it, but does anyone else think that Harry was just using this as a dry run for Tuesday? No doubt we will line up 4-5-1 then, and although it wasn't the right formation for today it allowed people like VDV and Gallas to bed in. Problem is, Pav was poor and Modders got injured - if it wasn't for that I think we'd have won comfortably.

I thought it was the right formation for today and we looked good up until we scored/Modric got injured.

Unfortunately Lennon had a poor game and once he was taken off, with Bale at LB we lacked width in midfield. Think 451 can be a good formation for us.

 

[StartingPrice]

I didn't say he didn't do anything offensively though did I? I said he is nowhere near as effective getting forward from left back, unless it's against teams who defend in numbers. He did play well today, but the fact is, as soon as West brom started to attack and get a good share of possession, Bale hardly did anything going forward. Its not rocket science that having him play left back means he has to focus more defending. Why play him in a defensive position when he is sooooooooo much better in attack.

I'm not saying he can't play left back, or can't defend, or even that he can't get forward from left back. I'm saying he is always going to be restricted when he plays left back. He has a lot more freedom on the wing. He has been our best attacking player so far this season and we dropped him to left back.

Funny you mentioned the Wigan game earlier aswell, because he was dropped back to left back in that game aswell. When we were already struggling to score as it was. It's bad enough we have our top scorer from last season out, without sticking our best attacking midfielder (or at least before VDV arrived) back to fullback.

We were playing 4-4-1-1 btw

The whole point about him playing left-back is that he may offer SLIGHTLY less (yes, we do understand that) in an offensive sense. But he still offers a hell of a lot from an offensive sense, and he does his defensive duties AS WELL. This means, ineffect, you are getting two players for the price of one. And as well as his STILL OFFERS A HELL OF A LOT OFFESNIVELY the player who takes his place in midfeidl (at the start of the game today, Luca Modric) can also OFFER A HELL OF A LOT OFFENSIVELY. Capisce:shrug: It's not rocket science:bang:

Honestly, it's not like we can't see he offers a hell of a lot playing on the wing, and if that is so, surely you should be asking yourself what else it is we are seeing, rather than just thinking we are stupid, eh:shrug:

Offensive play of Bale/Modric, or offensive play of BAE/Bale - after careful assessment of all contributing factors, and employing my 'native intelligence' I choose the former, okay.

Today, he whipped in a hell of a lot of crosses, could have scored two running in on the 'Keeper and Modric DID score one before being taken off so early...so how on the face of the FCUKing Earth did we fail to win today, due to a lack of offensive play from Bale, because he played at LB?

p.s. The 4-5-1/4-4-1-1 thing is just semantics.

 

[NickHSpurs]

Noe Pamarot is the answer! Playing CB for Hercules who are currently 2-0 up at Barca!

 

[philbcn]

Agreed.

Corluka is way too relaxed at times.

Palacios loses the ball too much for a centre midfielder and he still tries adventurous balls. Should be told to only play short balls ahead of him and side to side IMO.

Lennon is a shell of his former self. He's lost his sharpness and is really struggling to get into games.

Kranjcar doens't have much of an effect at all when he comes on.

Pav, Crouch and Keane just aren't firing for us in the league.

Is kind of worrying considering Defoe's out for the next 3 months.

Ok, just re-read what I put and I do sound like a bit if a drama queen :lol: But we should have won today and the 2nd half performance was awful. One things for sure in my mind though and that is that Bale is not a LB.

with you on all of this except Kranjcar, who wasn't good today but was alright the last time I saw him.

Couldn't believe Corluka just haled his hands up to let other players take the ball after he intercepted, take control son!

Palacios is a worrying shade of his former self and the strikers are not scoring.....

troubling times

 

[yidotastic]

i just thought we were too slow the only bit of pace came form bale also like to add was it me or did we not know who was playing were we where all over the place one modric went off

 

[mil1lion]

The whole point about him playing left-back is that he may offer SLIGHTLY less (yes, we do understand that) in an offensive sense. But he still offers a hell of a lot from an offensive sense, and he does his defensive duties AS WELL. This means, ineffect, you are getting two players for the price of one. And as well as his STILL OFFERS A HELL OF A LOT OFFESNIVELY the player who takes his place in midfeidl (at the start of the game today, Luca Modric) can also OFFER A HELL OF A LOT OFFENSIVELY. Capisce:shrug: It's not rocket science:bang:

Honestly, it's not like we can't see he offers a hell of a lot playing on the wing, and if that is so, surely you should be asking yourself what else it is we are seeing, rather than just thinking we are stupid, eh:shrug:

Offensive play of Bale/Modric, or offensive play of BAE/Bale - after careful assessment of all contributing factors, and employing my 'native intelligence' I choose the former, okay.

Today, he whipped in a hell of a lot of crosses, could have scored two running in on the 'Keeper and Modric DID score one before being taken off so early...so how on the face of the FCUKing Earth did we fail to win today, due to a lack of offensive play from Bale, because he played at LB?

p.s. The 4-5-1/4-4-1-1 thing is just semantics.

How many goals has he scored from left back? How many assists has he got from left back? Now compare that to how many he has from left wing. Hell compare any one of our midfielders records to Bales at left wing.

Sure we could play Bale left back and play a Kranjcar or a Modric in front of him, but like I said before, at home against teams who get bodies behind the ball. Not away from home, because the away team will get a fair share of attack. Which means Bale will have to defend more when he should be further up the pitch.

The fact is, it was 1-1, and while Bale had played well, he still had to play further back. With West Brom on the attack, he had to defend deep and it took away from our attacking play.

You say it's like having 2 players in place of one, but it isn't. He can't defend and be as effective attacking at the same time. Why should we have to rely on him as a defender when he is so much better in attack?

As for your debate on which is better offensively BAE and Bale or Modric and Bale, how about Palacios or Modric in the middle instead?

We bossed Man City away from home with Modric and Huddlestone in the middle. We can boss West Brom away with them in the middle aswell. So I choose a midfield of Lennon, Modric, Huddlestone and Bale. Which is our best midfield.

 

[milkman]

Was Gallas captain as well?

 

[Jody]

no, THUDD was.

 

[StartingPrice]

How many goals has he scored from left back? How many assists has he got from left back? Now compare that to how many he has from left wing. Hell compare any one of our midfielders records to Bales at left wing.

Sure we could play Bale left back and play a Kranjcar or a Modric in front of him, but like I said before, at home against teams who get bodies behind the ball. Not away from home, because the away will get a fair shar of attack. Which means Bale will have to defend more when he should be further up the pitch.

The fact is, it was 1-1, and while Bale had played well, he still had to play further back. With West Brom on the attack, he had to defend deep and it took away from our attacking play.

You say it's like having 2 players in place of one, but it isn't. He can't defend and be as effective attacking at the same time. Why should we have to rely on him as a defender when he is so much better in attack?

As for your debate on which is better offensively BAE and Bale or Modric and Bale, how about Palacios or Modric in the middle instead?

We bossed Man City away from home with Modric and Huddlestone in the middle. We can boss West Brom away with them in the middle aswell. So I choose a midfield of Lennon, Modric, Huddlestone and Bale. Which is our best midfield.

I have answered all of these questions a thousand times elsewhere.

The 'how many goals has he scored...' one is a non-starter as far as I am concerned as he clearly needed to get his confidence going (this happens) before getting a run of goals. If this had happened while he was playing at LB perhaps he would have got more from that position. Besides, it totally skews the arguement to NOT look at the offensive contribution of the player who starts in midfield in place of Bale.

And I agree about choosing the games where he plays LB and those where he plays LW - just don't think against weaker oppos. is the time to play him at LW, save that for the Big Boys. That is my carefully considered opinion. Today, weaker oppos., pay at LB.

It is largely misnomic to look at how deep he was playing. As I have shown, i.e. the Stoke game, he would have taken those corners whether he was playing LB or LW, and his assist running forward from the half-way line ditto, and this is because when he is playing LW he still gets back to defend as it is his naturally tendency, only his sublime volley wasmore likely just because he was playing LW, and a seasons averages are more important than one spectacular goal. Likewise, as I have explained, today, he could have scored two (and really should have scored at least one) running on to the ball 'even though he was playing LB', and he whipped penty of crosses in as well. As a winger he defends, and that means many of his goals/assists, on closer inspection, can be seen to be down to the fact that he is a dynamic and very athletic player, and not because he is either running from deep, or playing very high up the pitch; likewise, as a full-back, he gets forward a hell of a lot, and therefore gets into lenty of goalscoring opportunities, and makes plenty of assists, or potential assists.

I would have said Pav and Lennon's ineffectiveness took away from our attacking play - Bale getting forward to twice run in on the 'Keeper and providing so many crosses ADDED to our offensive threat, AND Modric, who played in midfield (sadly, all too briefly) scored our goal, let'snot forget.

Yeah, but please try to understand this, when I say it si like getting two players for the price of one when he plays LB, you have to factor the performance/offensive contribution of the player taking his position in midfield (Modric) in your assessment of the offensive threat - and that included a goal, and looked very good until he came off injured.

Yeah, Palacios and Modric in the middle...apart form the fact that we had to fit VDV in and that measn dropping THudd who is becoming more-and-more influential, and without VDV (type player), Modric doesn't provide enough goal threat.

It is a non-sequitor that because we 'bossed' a footballing team like Cuteh away, with THuddModders in the middle, that it will work with every team. Against footballing teams it is clearly a good option. Against teams who know they can't outplay us I don't think it is a good option. Besides, ala the Bale's offensive output debate, I think Modric is able to offer far more creatively (which is where we need him) playing on the wing and cutting in, than when he has to sit deeper in central mid.

And one sequence of play to illustrate my point. Modders received the ball cutting in, a little in advance of the half-way line, swivelled and a ball inside the defender for Bale to run on to...I thought he had overplayed it, but it was inch-perfect, and Bale hit a cross in (slightly deep, if I recall correctly). I think it was about 20 minutes in. Did you see it?

Finally, I think you have still not got the whole point of my original post. I don't mind if you think Bale would be better as a winger - I just don't see how today's performance in any way proves that anyone who believes that is 'so obviously' right. As I have shoen several times now, Bale offered plenty of offensive threat today. The player who took his place in midfield scored (before his injury). He did nothing wrong defensively. So how does any of that conclusively justify a bleief that he should be a winger. Subjectively stating that he would have offerred more offensively doesn't. as I am subjectively stating that he offered plenty and so did/wld have Modric.

 

[mil1lion]

I have answered all of these questions a thousand times elsewhere.

The 'how many goals has he scored...' one is a non-starter as far as I am concerned as he clearly needed to get his confidence going (this happens) before getting a run of goals. If this had happened while he was playing at LB perhaps he would have got more from that position. Besides, it totally skews the arguement to NOT look at the offensive contribution of the player who starts in midfield in place of Bale.

And I agree about choosing the games where he plays LB and those where he plays LW - just don't think against weaker oppos. is the time to play him at LW, save that for the Big Boys. That is my carefully considered opinion. Today, weaker oppos., pay at LB.

It is largely misnomic to look at how deep he was playing. As I have shown, i.e. the Stoke game, he would have taken those corners whether he was playing LB or LW, and his assist running forward from the half-way line ditto, and this is because when he is playing LW he still gets back to defend as it is his naturally tendency, only his sublime volley wasmore likely just because he was playing LW, and a seasons averages are more important than one spectacular goal. Likewise, as I have explained, today, he could have scored two (and really should have scored at least one) running on to the ball 'even though he was playing LB', and he whipped penty of crosses in as well. As a winger he defends, and that means many of his goals/assists, on closer inspection, can be seen to be down to the fact that he is a dynamic and very athletic player, and not because he is either running from deep, or playing very high up the pitch; likewise, as a full-back, he gets forward a hell of a lot, and therefore gets into lenty of goalscoring opportunities, and makes plenty of assists, or potential assists.

I would have said Pav and Lennon's ineffectiveness took away from our attacking play - Bale getting forward to twice run in on the 'Keeper and providing so many crosses ADDED to our offensive threat, AND Modric, who played in midfield (sadly, all too briefly) scored our goal, let'snot forget.

Yeah, but please try to understand this, when I say it si like getting two players for the price of one when he plays LB, you have to factor the performance/offensive contribution of the player taking his position in midfield (Modric) in your assessment of the offensive threat - and that included a goal, and looked very good until he came off injured.

Yeah, Palacios and Modric in the middle...apart form the fact that we had to fit VDV in and that measn dropping THudd who is becoming more-and-more influential, and without VDV (type player), Modric doesn't provide enough goal threat.

It is a non-sequitor that because we 'bossed' a footballing team like Cuteh away, with THuddModders in the middle, that it will work with every team. Against footballing teams it is clearly a good option. Against teams who know they can't outplay us I don't think it is a good option. Besides, ala the Bale's offensive output debate, I think Modric is able to offer far more creatively (which is where we need him) playing on the wing and cutting in, than when he has to sit deeper in central mid.

And one sequence of play to illustrate my point. Modders received the ball cutting in, a little in advance of the half-way line, swivelled and a ball inside the defender for Bale to run on to...I thought he had overplayed it, but it was inch-perfect, and Bale hit a cross in (slightly deep, if I recall correctly). I think it was about 20 minutes in. Did you see it?

Finally, I think you have still not got the whole point of my original post. I don't mind if you think Bale would be better as a winger - I just don't see how today's performance in any way proves that anyone who believes that is 'so obviously' right. As I have shoen several times now, Bale offered plenty of offensive threat today. The player who took his place in midfield scored (before his injury). He did nothing wrong defensively. So how does any of that conclusively justify a bleief that he should be a winger. Subjectively stating that he would have offerred more offensively doesn't. as I am subjectively stating that he offered plenty and so did/wld have Modric.

Bale would still have done all those crosses and had those chances at left wing. But would have done more aswell, because he wouldn't have been pinned back whenever West Brom were on the attack.

The fact is, Bale is soooo much better attacking than he is defending. That is not even up for debate. I also find it funny that his best moments today were that of an attacking nature and not a defending one. He did a good job defending, but he is so much better attacking.

What Modric done from the left he could've done in the middle. He controlled the tempo of the game, kept us on the ball and we ticked. Maybe he still scores that goal coming from the middle, or maybe Bale scores it coming in from the left.

We still have just as many attacking players if we only play 1 of Huddlestone or Palacios. You question whether Modric and Huddlestone can boss a team like West Brom? I don't know if you noticed but they're a team who play football under Di Matteo. So to speak of them like a team who play like they know they can't outplay us is nonsense. They actually outplayed us for lots of the 2nd half.

As for the Stoke game, Bale switched wings a few times with Lennon. Something he can't do at left back. He also popped up centrally where he scored his goal. Again, something he can't really do from left back. He shows time and time again how good he is at getting forward and we shouldn't play him 20-30 yards back like we did today.

I think you're somewhat undermining West Brom at their place. To think we can beat them with our best attacking midfielder playing from fullback, and not adding as much in an attacking sense as he would on the wing. Especially with our top striker out injured. It's well known that teams at home are more adventurious as it is, while at our place they will be less inclined to get bodies forward.

I could understand if Bale was great at defending, or even anywhere near as good defending as he is attacking. But he simply isn't. He's a hell of a lot better as an attacking player, and simply doesn't need to be defending too much.

 

[felmani26]

Disappointing and frustrating are the words that openly springs to mind. Disappointing to again lose more ground albeit i'm fully aware that this is a marathon and not a sprint and frustrating that again to see so many lacklustre performances from all facets of our team, most notably Corluka, Palacios, Lennon and Pavlyuchenko.

Such is football that yesterday's hero can quickly turn into today's villain and this is most definately seeping through to Palacios's stature among us but whilst I agree he has been below par of late, he deserves time to turn this around. However I concur that perhaps a little time-out is in order for him to rediscover his qualities that first endeared us to him in the first place.

 

[The Apprentice]

Good to see Huddlestone rise to the occasion of captaincy....

Jenas and Sandro next week please.

 

[Arkie]

I facking hate Howard Webb

 

[Arkie]

apart from that benny has to play LB with Bale at LM

 

[StartingPrice]

Bale would still have done all those crosses and had those chances at left wing. But would have done more aswell, because he wouldn't have been pinned back whenever West Brom were on the attack.

The fact is, Bale is soooo much better attacking than he is defending. That is not even up for debate. I also find it funny that his best moments today were that of an attacking nature and not a defending one. He did a good job defending, but he is so much better attacking.

What Modric done from the left he could've done in the middle. He controlled the tempo of the game, kept us on the ball and we ticked. Maybe he still scores that goal coming from the middle, or maybe Bale scores it coming in from the left.

We still have just as many attacking players if we only play 1 of Huddlestone or Palacios. You question whether Modric and Huddlestone can boss a team like West Brom? I don't know if you noticed but they're a team who play football under Di Matteo. So to speak of them like a team who play like they know they can't outplay us is nonsense. They actually outplayed us for lots of the 2nd half.

As for the Stoke game, Bale switched wings a few times with Lennon. Something he can't do at left back. He also popped up centrally where he scored his goal. Again, something he can't really do from left back. He shows time and time again how good he is at getting forward and we shouldn't play him 20-30 yards back like we did today.

I think you're somewhat undermining West Brom at their place. To think we can beat them with our best attacking midfielder playing from fullback, and not adding as much in an attacking sense as he would on the wing. Especially with our top striker out injured. It's well known that teams at home are more adventurious as it is, while at our place they will be less inclined to get bodies forward.

I could understand if Bale was great at defending, or even anywhere near as good defending as he is attacking. But he simply isn't. He's a hell of a lot better as an attacking player, and simply doesn't need to be defending too much.

There are a lot of ifs and buts here.

But you are still not addressing the central issues.

1) Bale did offer plenty going forward.
2) Modric did score.
3) We were dominating the game until Modric had to go off injured.

Simple.

You are confusing it with a debate about whether Bale is effective as a winger. As I have never said he isn't I really don't see why you would want to do that (or, perhaps more pertinently, I think I see exactly why you want to do it). I have stated time and time again, I believe he would make a very, very good winger. As I ahve also stated he is a great left-sided player. And that playing on the wing in some games, and at LB in others is probably the best option. And that is 'Arry decides to convert him into a winger permanently, I don't have a problem with that...and why should I as I keep on saying he would make a very, very good winger. I just don't think it maximizes his skillset fully, hence that I believe he would make a World-Class full-back, and, therefore, prefer him in that position.

But, like I said, that is a different debate altogether. This one is exclusively that you said he didn't offer an offensive threat as he was playing at LB and that this negated our attacking play. I explained, with evidence that this wasn't true, that he offered plenty of offensive threat, and then you changed it into a debate about whether he should play LW or FB.

Let me explain it clearly for you again: Wewere winning and dominating the game before Modric had to go off, and looked superb down the left flank with him and Bale. And after he went off Bale still offered plenty of attacking threat. So, it is wholly fatuous to attach any blame for this slightly disappointing result on Bale playing at LB.

 

[brett.spurs]

I thought we played well.

 

[dcarney75]

I saw enough today to be reasonably confident we're going to destroy some teams this season. Annoying and slightly unexpected that we've not clicked yet, but there's no current need for knickers to get twisted. Some of the stuff on here makes me laugh.

One CL placing doesn't mean we have a god-given right to hammer everyone who isn't Chelski, ManYoo or Arse. We're getting there; it's just not a completely linear process. Anyone who thinks it is is either 14 years old or a reactionary simpleton with a misplaced sense of entitlement.

 

[mil1lion]

There are a lot of ifs and buts here.

But you are still not addressing the central issues.
Actually I have addressed them all.
1) Bale did offer plenty going forward. As I said before, he would have offered more in attack as a winger though
2) Modric did score. Who's to say he wouldn't have scored from centre midfield? Or maybe Bale scores it instead.
3) We were dominating the game until Modric had to go off injured. Modric could've still controlled the game in the middle with Huddlestone.

Simple.

You are confusing it with a debate about whether Bale is effective as a winger. As I have never said he isn't I really don't see why you would want to do that (or, perhaps more pertinently, I think I see exactly why you want to do it). I have stated time and time again, I believe he would make a very, very good winger. As I ahve also stated he is a great left-sided player. And that playing on the wing in some games, and at LB in others is probably the best option. And that is 'Arry decides to convert him into a winger permanently, I don't have a problem with that...and why should I as I keep on saying he would make a very, very good winger. I just don't think it maximizes his skillset fully, hence that I believe he would make a World-Class full-back, and, therefore, prefer him in that position.

But, like I said, that is a different debate altogether. This one is exclusively that you said he didn't offer an offensive threat as he was playing at LB and that this negated our attacking play. I explained, with evidence that this wasn't true, that he offered plenty of offensive threat, and then you changed it into a debate about whether he should play LW or FB.

Let me explain it clearly for you again: Wewere winning and dominating the game before Modric had to go off, and looked superb down the left flank with him and Bale. And after he went off Bale still offered plenty of attacking threat. So, it is wholly fatuous to attach any blame for this slightly disappointing result on Bale playing at LB.

Oh for fuck sake, you clearly don't read what I type.

I didn't say he didn't do anything offensively though did I? I said he is nowhere near as effective getting forward from left back, unless it's against teams who defend in numbers. He did play well today, but the fact is, as soon as West brom started to attack and get a good share of possession, Bale hardly did anything going forward. Its not rocket science that having him play left back means he has to focus more defending. Why play him in a defensive position when he is sooooooooo much better in attack.

I'm not saying he can't play left back, or can't defend, or even that he can't get forward from left back. I'm saying he is always going to be restricted when he plays left back. He has a lot more freedom on the wing. He has been our best attacking player so far this season and we dropped him to left back.

Funny you mentioned the Wigan game earlier aswell, because he was dropped back to left back in that game aswell. When we were already struggling to score as it was. It's bad enough we have our top scorer from last season out, without sticking our best attacking midfielder (or at least before VDV arrived) back to fullback.

We were playing 4-4-1-1 btw

I have never said Bale isn't good at left back. I never said he didn't offer an offensive threat at left back today. I simply said over and over that he is sooo much better as a left winger than as a left back. I said that while he did do those things going forward, he would still have done so as a left winger, but he would've been able to do more aswell. Because when you're a left back, it means you have to defend, which means he had to defend when West Brom were on the attack. He should have been further up the pitch, not defending, because he doesn't need to be back there defending when he is a lot more effective going forward. Take the shackles off him and give him more freedom to play where he is so much more effective.

All his best performances for us have been as a left winger. Yes he has played some very good games at left back aswell, but he has never played as well as a left back as he has on the wing. It's not hard to imagine why either considering he is much better attacking than defending. Maybe when he becomes as good defensively as he is attacking (like Ashley Cole) he can play left back more often. But unless we're going to be camped in the opposition half with the fullbacks getting forward and practically playing as wingers, there's no point playing Bale 30 yards further back where he has to worry about defending. We're simply restricting his attacking play with him as a left back. And by restricting i'm not saying he never gets forward but that he doesn't get forward at will :wink:

I'm done debating with you because you clearly twist what I say.