What's the point of the u21's

[ralphs bald spot]

The U21's start their League programme tomorrow kind of makes me ask what's the point what does it teach the boys? The U21 League has been tried at all different formats and none of them have really worked. I saw the U21s the other week at Billericay and the Orient game and they were poor none of them are anywhere near first team football at Tottenham

Kind of gets you asking what is the point of the u21s? Does the team offer a pathway into the first team the answer to that is no. The better players are pushed out on loan and others sit in the first team squad as they get little benefit from u21 football. In the past the stiffs would have included players not getting a first team game but that has long since stopped. I guess you have to have some step up from the u18's but in to many cases lads are at clubs effectively fulfilling fixtures with no apparent progression apart from waiting for their contracts to expire and hoping that another club picks them up that's no good for anyone.

I don't think there is an easy answer unless the FA allow B teams to play competitive football which has some element of reward and failure it will only get worse.

 

[Mattspur]

It would be interesting to know how many young players at PL clubs who regularly played U21 football have successfully made the step up to the first team. I would imagine that a club only needs 1 or 2 players every 3-4 years to make it financially worthwhile.

Sure, the better players tend to further their development by going out on loan but they need to be able to showcase themselves in the U21 leagues in order to make that step.

The idea of B Team's was floated quite heavily a few seasons ago, and I'm not sure if I recall the FA taking a vote on it or something, but in the end it was a non-starter.

Edit:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58864123

 

[ralphs bald spot]

It would be interesting to know how many young players at PL clubs who regularly played U21 football have successfully made the step up to the first team. I would imagine that a club only needs 1 or 2 players every 3-4 years to make it financially worthwhile.

Sure, the better players tend to further their development by going out on loan but they need to be able to showcase themselves in the U21 leagues in order to make that step.

The idea of B Team's was floated quite heavily a few seasons ago, and I'm not sure if I recall the FA taking a vote on it or something, but in the end it was a non-starter.

the question isn't scrapping youth teams its scrapping the u21'S - boys will progress not because of u21 football almost despite it - Scarlett and Skipp have hardly played u21 football

but the point is the u21'S leagues don't showcase talent the games are played in sterile atmospheres with most sides playing a similar brand of football in a largely uncompetitive league with no consequences of success or failure

B Teams have been floated and of course the FA aren't going to vote for it they tick along nicely with the England team doing ok and the rise of inclusivity in Football all is rosy in the garden (its the proverbial Turkey and Christmas vote and I am not sure the FA are capable at the best of time . But the reality is that for loads of boys and the football clubs themselves the model don't work you are obviously going to get a churn in players but u21 football is just not fit for purpose

 

[Saoirse]

It does seem to largely be a holding pen for kids not playing U18 football, but not proven enough to get a good loan move. Some of them will eventually come good and make it in the game, even if it's not at Tottenham.

 

[PLTuck]

I'm quite looking forward to watching the first game this evening. I know nothing about the structure of the Premier B league as Spursplay has it. Is there prize money? Is there a trophy and relegation/promotion? If not then surely that is the first step to improving it and make it more competitive?

 

[ralphs bald spot]

they do have relegation (United got relegated the other year) but it certainly does little to lift the quality of the league or encourage clubs to use it as any sort of pathway look at our u21s probably 5 o 6 them treading water at Tottenham with their careers going nowhere a little sad in my book

 

[JKendall13]

It's not the fault of the u21 league. Premier league teams, top to bottom but also more acutely at the top 6 level, have so much money that they don't really need to bring players through the academy level. If you bring 2-3 through every five year, that's a result. And generally those are top class talents like Kane, Foden, TAA, Mount, James, etc.

It's just a virtue of the PL being richer and having more access to global footballers. Less opportunity for young players at a young age unless they are prodigies, thus the U21 league is always going to be something of a backwater. Maybe you get a couple late bloomers here and there, but most won't play PL football.

 

[Col_M]

In my view, its a way of teaching the youngsters the methods of play that the head coach is after. If you are coming through the academy, then U21 is the next level before getting proper league experience like on loans. The competitive demands enables 1) the player to hone their skills, 2) coach to consider who is good enough to recommend to the head coach 3) who doesn't have it at this level.

There is also the ability for the substitute goalkeeper to get some minutes in, and for players returning from long term injuries

 

[Tucker]

Does this system work any better than when it was just reserves where teams could play their unused senior players at will? Surely youngsters would learn more playing against grown men?

I’d hate to see a system where premier league clubs have B-teams in the lower divisions. That would be so open to abuse by the likes of City and Chelsea.

I think the loan system has always worked well for bringing youngsters through, but the squad rules have hampered that meaning clubs will often hold youngsters back so they are “club trained” I’d get rid of that pointless rule. What does it matter where a kid trained? I can understand the home grown rules wanting kids coming through the English youth system though.

 

[cusop]

Reading this I am reminded of Harry Kanes loan move to Norwich , he was too young to play for them and got injured early. U21 should be for the late developers physically,

 

[ralphs bald spot]

In my view, its a way of teaching the youngsters the methods of play that the head coach is after. If you are coming through the academy, then U21 is the next level before getting proper league experience like on loans. The competitive demands enables 1) the player to hone their skills, 2) coach to consider who is good enough to recommend to the head coach 3) who doesn't have it at this level.

There is also the ability for the substitute goalkeeper to get some minutes in, and for players returning from long term injuries

but that's not how its working at all boys move almost immediately from u18s to loans (Skipp Scarlett Parrott) if there marked for progression otherwise they sit in the u21s - does anybody think the likes of Lyons Foster is getting any benefit from sitting in the 21's for 3 years

of course your lucky to get one or two through that's always been the case but there has to be a better solution than what we currently have and I don't get peoples resistance to B teams moving into the pyramid its not about big teams taking advantage that's happening already and always will its about giving young players opportunities to progress and that's not happening

 

[ralphs bald spot]

It's not the fault of the u21 league. Premier league teams, top to bottom but also more acutely at the top 6 level, have so much money that they don't really need to bring players through the academy level. If you bring 2-3 through every five year, that's a result. And generally those are top class talents like Kane, Foden, TAA, Mount, James, etc.

It's just a virtue of the PL being richer and having more access to global footballers. Less opportunity for young players at a young age unless they are prodigies, thus the U21 league is always going to be something of a backwater. Maybe you get a couple late bloomers here and there, but most won't play PL football.

of course that's all true but there has to be a better way to give players an opportunity to play competitive football and develop than the current u21's system its failing everybody the boys playing and the clubs themselves -

 

[cusop]

Kyle Walker Peters came through the system 12 million.. his loan move came after he was 21

 

[C0YS]

I could just go for the simple answer. Namely, it offers more games to players. I could also say that almost every player to make it in the pl have played a degree of U21 football (Skipp played a season at that level, Kane half a season). But there are more important points than just player development.

One of the main functions that the U21s does is it allows players further down the leagues to watch youth players and get players both loans and transfers away from the club. It is easy to scout the U21 and while the level isn't that high, the best clubs are still around league 2/national League level. Making it a good place to scout for players. Without it we would be looking at a lot more trails for players and it would become harder to get a transfer fee for players.

Players who have particularly benefited from an in-between league are those who suffered set backs, as well as players who just need a little bit more time. Two players who have certainly benefitted from it are Dawkins and Joe Pritchard.

Dawkins injuries looked to have put an end to his career. His rehabilitation at Spurs and ability for him to recover and use the u21s to work on both his game and his fitness and put him out in the shop window, helped him establish a good level career that probably made him a millionaire, or at least quite close to one.

Joe Pritchard's case was injuries at a lower level. I think I'm right in saying he barely played any u18 football because of injuries he came back and stayed in the U21s a long time. Made more than 50 appearances there. Eventually, he got his move to Bolton before quickly moving on to Accrington.

Unfortunately, injuries stopped him playing much last season. But 27 goal contributions from 85 games is a phenomenal return from CM. He is now back playing and starting for Accrington and frankly has done very well compared to what most youth players do. Again, I highly doubt he would be playing at that level had it not been for the U21s.

 

[ralphs bald spot]

I could just go for the simple answer. Namely, it offers more games to players. I could also say that almost every player to make it in the pl have played a degree of U21 football (Skipp played a season at that level, Kane half a season). But there are more important points than just player development.

One of the main functions that the U21s does is it allows players further down the leagues to watch youth players and get players both loans and transfers away from the club. It is easy to scout the U21 and while the level isn't that high, the best clubs are still around league 2/national League level. Making it a good place to scout for players. Without it we would be looking at a lot more trails for players and it would become harder to get a transfer fee for players.

Players who have particularly benefited from an in-between league are those who suffered set backs, as well as players who just need a little bit more time. Two players who have certainly benefitted from it are Dawkins and Joe Pritchard.

Dawkins injuries looked to have put an end to his career. His rehabilitation at Spurs and ability for him to recover and use the u21s to work on both his game and his fitness and put him out in the shop window, helped him establish a good level career that probably made him a millionaire, or at least quite close to one.

Joe Pritchard's case was injuries at a lower level. I think I'm right in saying he barely played any u18 football because of injuries he came back and stayed in the U21s a long time. Made more than 50 appearances there. Eventually, he got his move to Bolton before quickly moving on to Accrington.

Unfortunately, injuries stopped him playing much last season. But 27 goal contributions from 85 games is a phenomenal return from CM. He is now back playing and starting for Accrington and frankly has done very well compared to what most youth players do. Again, I highly doubt he would be playing at that level had it not been for the U21s.

The scouting bit is somewhat true if you watch u21's game at the end of the seasons its pretty much a scouts convention but that doesn't justify meaningless football for the rest of the season - loans are working for the boys who clubs want to develop and as a result find a loan but its the majority that stagnate - of course there a boys who progress like Joe who broke his le playing for the u18s I think I was there when he did it he did great to come back - Dawkins was earlier and he was always injured I think read he is still playing in America - but the question is not about totally scrapping the u21's but more about is the league and the path they have beneficial and does it work for anyone

 

[C0YS]

The scouting bit is somewhat true if you watch u21's game at the end of the seasons its pretty much a scouts convention but that doesn't justify meaningless football for the rest of the season - loans are working for the boys who clubs want to develop and as a result find a loan but its the majority that stagnate - of course there a boys who progress like Joe who broke his le playing for the u18s I think I was there when he did it he did great to come back - Dawkins was earlier and he was always injured I think read he is still playing in America - but the question is not about totally scrapping the u21's but more about is the league and the path they have beneficial and does it work for anyone

Loans are not always the best way to develop players though. Some benefit from staying within the club and having their development follow under the close eye of coaches from their own club.

Obviously, there could always be a better way but it's not pointless. Similarly, clubs can elect to not take part.

Something like a B team in the lower leagues is something I'm dead against as I feel it undermines the integrity of lower leagues it also allows the bigger clubs to hoard even more players and that can also stifle development too. Similarly, development focused football over competitive football has significant advantages in developing some players.

Ideally you want as many different options and pathways in how to develop players as it is important to understand that every players development journey is significantly different and, yeah, U21 football can certainly be part of that.

 

[ralphs bald spot]

Loans are not always the best way to develop players though. Some benefit from staying within the club and having their development follow under the close eye of coaches from their own club.

Obviously, there could always be a better way but it's not pointless. Similarly, clubs can elect to not take part.

Something like a B team in the lower leagues is something I'm dead against as I feel it undermines the integrity of lower leagues it also allows the bigger clubs to hoard even more players and that can also stifle development too. Similarly, development focused football over competitive football has significant advantages in developing some players.

Ideally you want as many different options and pathways in how to develop players as it is important to understand that every players development journey is significantly different and, yeah, U21 football can certainly be part of that.

all fair points I don't agree with them all - loans its not a one size fits all I agree, I think that they can be over emphasised a bit but generally the trend is that they are split into two - one the boys who are fast tracked and others where they are effectively put in the shop window - for the majority they are not an option

A few clubs have ditched the u21s and I would expect more might follow for both financial and development reasons . The B team or affiliates are for me the right way to go at the expense of an U21 sides with defined squad sizes you give boys a potential path and I don't see how it undermines the integrity I think it raises the quality and the competitive element (you haven't seen an u21 team win the cup that they compete against League sides yet)

I do take the point about different pathways just don't see that the u21s league fits that purpose for anyone

 

[DogsOfWar]

When I was younger, academy football ended at 18 and then it was about playing against adults.
In those days it was reserve team football (in a reserve team league or further down the tiers) that was roughly 50/50 of fringe first teamers, the odd quality player coming back from injury, and the best of the ex-academy players coming through.

For me, it worked on many levels.
Kids who are the best at their level suddenly find they aren't anymore and then you find out if they are willing to work hard enough to maintain that.
Kids who aren't up to it physically are found out early on.
Fringe first team players get regular minutes.
The committed kids learn from the senior players and their development is accelerated.
The environment was still the same as the first team, and crowds were decent so they felt the experience of the higher level.
It was cheaper for the club as they only had 7 or 8 youngsters in the squad.

I can understand the principles of why the u23/u21 system was bought in to help youth development but my experience was development was better aided by playing with/against men every week who were close to the first team level in terms of experience and quality.
In my view it significantly reduced the youth player pool but those coming out of the end of it were more likely to play in the first team.

 

[fridgemagnet]

If I understand correctly, if say Devine, Sarr don't go loan if we need to give them some game time they could be used in the occasional U21 matches & possibly Spence plus others I've missed?
Or does it depend on their contracted status at a club? IIRC Scarlett and Devine plus White made U21 appearances last season.
Also I may have imagined it but I'm sure on occasion I have seen other PL teams playing a player who was out on loan in behind closed doors matches (maybe like the odd game to see how they're doing?) I may have this confused and it's players returning to parent clubs to treat an injury and the game is just a match fitness thing as the loan is cancelled?

 

[fridgemagnet]

The one thing I've been unsure of since Poch left is are our youth teams playing to the same style/patterns as the senior team?

Under Poch I'm sure they did for certain age groups but since John Mcdermott left and Ryan became No#2 I've been unsure of who really does what over there now.
Maybe explains why we've signed the youth players we have and let quite a large number leave (if they don't fit Conte's shape/vision)