When should a player break into the first team?

[Larryjanta]

Apologies if this has already been discussed or should be elsewhere but I've increasingly been considering when a player *should* step up from the under 21s into the first team. This has been prompted, mainly, by the emergence of Mason at an "old" age. I realise that Mason is an odd one as, if not for injuries, he could have made the breakthrough sooner but, even still, 23 does seem quite late.

I've been giving this more thought and it seems to me that the players who we all associate with an early breakthrough, Rooney, Sterling, Owen etc. all have something in common. They are either physically men at a young age (Rooney) or have a quality you cannot teach (pace) so, without a physical quality that seperates you from the boys, is it even possible for a player to step up early? Bentaleb is another example, he looks like a man at 19 whereas someone like Tom Carrol still looks like a kid at 22.

So, for you, at what age do you think a player needs to have stepped up before you would consider moving them on? And, as a secondary question, do you think it is possible for an 18 year old to step up if they are slow to mature physically and still look like the kids in the under 16s?

As a final point, if you look at players who have burst on the scene at a young age, few seem to still be at the top of their game at 30 - 1) are there an exceptions to this and 2) do you think is simply their body maturing earlier (puberty, hitting their peak and then declining) or is it down to them being overplayed at a young age and then burning out.

 

[Sevens]

Great post.

Firstly I have always been a great believer that a Manager should pick their current strongest team and that players, if good enough, will get their chances through natural attrition. Therefore in my opinion it doesn't matter if a player is 16 or 40. If they are the best available player for that position then they should be selected.

Secondly, and I have argued this point so often over the last 20 years that I am genuinely bored of it!, with regards to players I've always believed building for the future in football is a false economy. Most Managers simply don't have the time or luxury to do this and therefore planning for the distant future (three or four seasons ahead) is a waste of time. That future never comes. Again it comes down to if a kid is good enough, he'll get games eventually. You should buy potential, but you shouldn't sacrifice the present to give a youngster a game to develop them.

Thirdly, I don't subscribe to the view that players show massive improvement after a certain age. Some players do improve with age but most improvements are very subtle or are more down to improved confidence than an actual physical increase in ability. Actual on the ball skills rarely improve past the teenage years. A 19 year old winger who is a very poor crosser won't suddenly become a good crosser. At best he'll end up just a poor crosser. It's why I don't truly subscribe to the theory that Managers improve or ruin players. Managers can improve confidence in a player (and confidence is a big part of success) or even more importantly play to that players strengths but do they actually improve their game? Again I think such improvements would be very subtle. There are obvious exceptions to the former but they are exceptions and not the norm. Also when you drill down with the exceptions you find something in hindsight as to why that player appeared to be a late developer. E.g. Drogba who was playing at full back.

Fourth, the question of physique. It's a good question but the answer probably lies in how many youngsters are released by the big clubs and then how many of those youngsters go on to be top class international players? Or even top Premiership players? Not many in the last 20 years. The only obvious one that stands out would be Peter Crouch who played in two competitive teams in ourselves and Liverpool.

Fifth, players getting worse. I think there can be several reasons for this. One is expectation based on my third opinion above. A lot of the time players don't actually get worse. Sometimes they even slightly improve. But they don't improve that much from what they were like when they broke onto the scene as a youngster. They fail to live up to expectations and then people turn on them. Another is that players who rely on physical prowess (pace, agility etc.) are more likely to have shorter effective careers simply due to the natural ageing process that takes place as you get older. One injury can rob a player of the pace that made them a good player. With pace they're good, without they are merely average. Professionalism and desire must also play a part. It's easy to forget sometimes that these are young men in their prime who are earning obscene amounts of money. The motivation for these players, especially if they have reached the pinnacle of what they're going to achieve and it's not with a trophy competitive club, surely must dwindle for all but the most professional. The desire to train as hard, to rehabilitate during injuries etc. It's a lot to ask of a twentysomething who is earning more in a week than most people earn in a year.

 

[jezz]

When there good enough.

 

[prawnsandwich]

There is more to it than meets the eye. Last season AVB did not pick any of the youth players and this season I think Levy is wanting a few high priced players to be showcased.
This time next season I think there will be a lot of younger players in the squad.

 

[theShiznit]

When there good enough.

If they're old enough they're good enough... A motto that's led to many a man having to sign a register

 

[beats1]

Read the U21 thread and you will hear what people think and our coaches think.

People expect a player to break in to the team at 18 otherwise he isn't good enough. Everyone has to be like Rooney and etc.

However each player is different. Mason should of broken in to the team in AVB's first season but he never got a chance.

Some players who are physically strong enough, need to be loaned like Bentaleb whereas the weaker players need to bleed in whenever possible whilst building their confidence like Pritchard.

Probably safe to say Kyle Walker Peters will be next in the europa league matches

 

[beats1]

Our youth coaches and coincidentally barca's as well expect youth players to break in to the first team at 23.

For example Duelofeu would of been in the barca team that messi broke in to but because barca are now doing well(rather than being mid table/relegation) it is harder to break in to.

Both teams know that when a first team is doing well, youth players wont get an opportunity until later in their career. Someone like Mason maybe 23 but is probably 3/4 years behind the development of the younger eriksen due to lack of experience at the top level.

So whilst he may not be as young his development may be delayed if he doesnt peak early, he still could reach the big potential he showed a young age

For example Pirlo wasn't playing first team football for his club until 23/24 and was sold by inter(who didn't rate him) in a false profit transfer(announcing transfers higher). Anyway both players started as a number 10 before moving deeper. Im not saying that Mason will be that good but he should aim to follow that path tbh.

 

[mpickard2087]

Our youth coaches and coincidentally barca's as well expect youth players to break in to the first team at 23.

For example Duelofeu would of been in the barca team that messi broke in to but because barca are now doing well(rather than being mid table/relegation) it is harder to break in to.

Both teams know that when a first team is doing well, youth players wont get an opportunity until later in their career. Someone like Mason maybe 23 but is probably 3/4 years behind the development of the younger eriksen due to lack of experience at the top level.

So whilst he may not be as young his development may be delayed if he doesnt peak early, he still could reach the big potential he showed a young age

For example Pirlo wasn't playing first team football for his club until 23/24 and was sold by inter(who didn't rate him) in a false profit transfer(announcing transfers higher). Anyway both players started as a number 10 before moving deeper. Im not saying that Mason will be that good but he should aim to follow that path tbh.

Yeah I remember reading ages ago (think it may have been an interview with McDermott) where he said the academy/youth structure was all about making sure the players were ready for the first team before they were pitched in too soon, and used the Spanish/Italian model where I think the average age of players getting regular first team outings was 22 and adopted this thinking.

Fans need to be patient and not write off the likes of Kane, Bentaleb etc aged 18/19, the coaches sure as hell aren't though thank god.

 

[spurs9]

Yeah I remember reading ages ago (think it may have been an interview with McDermott) where he said the academy/youth structure was all about making sure the players were ready for the first team before they were pitched in too soon, and used the Spanish/Italian model where I think the average age of players getting regular first team outings was 22 and adopted this thinking.

Fans need to be patient and not write off the likes of Kane, Bentaleb etc aged 18/19, the coaches sure as hell aren't though thank god.

Plus it's usually (not always) speedsters that make the break through at 18 etc. More intelligent players take longer usually.

 

[VegasII]

Plus it's usually (not always) speedsters that make the break through at 18 etc. More intelligent players take longer usually.

They usually have longer careers as well. Sheringham, Pirlo...(cough)...Brad Friedel.

 

[Black]

I feel a few of ours would be breaking through if we didn't keep overspending on average players all the time.

 

[spurs9]

I feel a few of ours would be breaking through if we didn't keep overspending on average players all the time.

I agree. Maybe we fans needed last season to see that, as there is no way last season we would have been happy promoting Kane, Mason and Bentaleb instead of buying Soldado, Paulinho and Capoue.

 

[spurs9]

I feel a few of ours would be breaking through if we didn't keep overspending on average players all the time.

Also, just to add to my earlier reply, we may, at times, desperately need a player for a position but the young players are a year or two off, so maybe we need to utalise incoming loans or free/cheap transfers of experienced players that are coming to the end of their careers more.

 

[VegasII]

I feel a few of ours would be breaking through if we didn't keep overspending on average players all the time.

The fact that Bentaleb, Mason and Dier have all come in and had an impact straight away says a lot.

 

[michaelden]

If they're old enough they're good enough... A motto that's led to many a man having to sign a register

I swear it's, "if they're good enough, they're old enough" not your way around

 

[Locotoro]

@Sevens

I don't disagree with what you have said except in one area, improvement.

From a physiological and techinical perspective a player can improve dramatically through improved intellegence on the pitch. Making the right pass at the right time is not a talent but a skill that must be honed by tuning your decision making skills. When a player becomes experienced enough to read the environment at speed he will instinctively know what to do and the pass is made without even thinking. In this sense, having a coach who is can teach positional awareness, passing choices, defending, and protection of the ball can turn a good talented youngster into a very efficient professional. In that sense, huge improvements are made through coaching and that is why our national game is flagging behind Spain, Holland and Germany, because the sport is more about intelligence and less about physique than it ever has been before and we just don't seem to focus on these areas.

Those players that can't improve their footballing intelligence are usually the ones with short careers.

 

[Larryjanta]

thanks everyone for the responses. I agree with a lot of you.

I would love us, as fans, to get behind and more excited about our youngsters. We have such an exciting crop of players coming through but they need patience. Had to put several sc'ers on mute after reading ninsense about how Kane and Bentaleb would never make it based on 1 or 2 poor performances.

 

[VegasII]

I think what's quite cool is that we have Mason, Kane, Townsend and Bentaleb in the first team squad with the potential for more on the way. A lot more by the sounds of it. It's taken a while but we've gone from having one young player e.g O'Hara/Marney to a handful. Encouraging. We need a couple of defenders and a keeper to breakthrough as well.

 

[RichieS]

thanks everyone for the responses. I agree with a lot of you.

I would love us, as fans, to get behind and more excited about our youngsters. We have such an exciting crop of players coming through but they need patience. Had to put several sc'ers on mute after reading ninsense about how Kane and Bentaleb would never make it based on 1 or 2 poor performances.

We could realistically have Veljkovic, Mason, Bentaleb, Carroll and Kane along the spine of our team in a couple of years, with Rose, Pritchard and Townsend around them. I'm really excited about that!

 

[theShiznit]

I swear it's, "if they're good enough, they're old enough" not your way around

Yeah that's the one, the other way is closer to signing the death register.

it seemed ok at the time, must've been all that crack i was on.