Where it is going wrong!

[alfiespurs]

We beat United.

That was luck...

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Or how many signings has Levy made by manouevering the situation so that the manager has little choice. These last minute shenanigans can be pretty useful sometimes.

Wether there's any truth to what I said there or not I can't say

Personally I would prefer to stick to theories we can at least vaguely rationalise rather than half baked conspiracy theories which would be impossible to prove (unless we can access the inner workings of Levy's mind) and even if they were true would possibly be because he knows that he deals proposed by the manager don't make sense. Like signing Tevez (too much money) or Phil Neville (too ugly).

Do you really but into the whole "Moutinho was an orchestrated farce" theory. Even AVB was working on it wasn't he, and he seemed reasonably convinced.

 

[Real_madyidd]

That was luck...

In that case, in answer to this thread:

We need more luck.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

10 years?

So you're including the years that we actually officially had a DOF in place?

It's clearly not the same situation is it BC, if you're in this mood there is little point doing this.

You mean the not suffer fools gladly mood ?

I asked you a simple question. How many players do you think Levy has forced on any manager without that manager having any say. At any time.

You came up with one. I have suggested 2 or 3. Can you add to them ?

 

[Spurs_Bear]

You mean the not suffer fools gladly mood ?

I asked you a simple question. How many players do you think Levy has forced on any manager without that manager having any say. At any time.

You came up with one. I have suggested 2 or 3. Can you add to them ?

No I came up with 2. Add Vertonghen into the mix as well if you want? We were clearly going for him before AVB, and carried on.

You then mentioned the 10 year thing, well he clearly wasn't acting like a DOF when we had an actual DOF in Arnesen/Comolli, why would you buy a dog and bark yourself?

It's almost like the situation has grown over time though.

Call it forced on the manager (probably too strong) or whatever you want, but I think it was pretty clear that AVB wanted Moutinho, did he want Sig/Demp/Dembele? Not by my reckoning.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Personally I would prefer to stick to theories we can at least vaguely rationalise rather than half baked conspiracy theories which would be impossible to prove (unless we can access the inner workings of Levy's mind) and even if they were true would possibly be because he knows that he deals proposed by the manager don't make sense. Like signing Tevez (too much money) or Phil Neville (too ugly).

Do you really but into the whole "Moutinho was an orchestrated farce" theory. Even AVB was working on it wasn't he, and he seemed reasonably convinced.

I don't buy into that theory, but I question why we left it so fucking late.

 

[MisterC]

United are more or less playing 4-4-2 now, well 4-4-1-1 - and they went to Chelsea and won! Two out and out wingers, which we have as well so you could argue we are definitely more suited to playing the above systems at the moment given the players we have.

Its what makes Fergie so good, he adapts and changes the tactical set up when he sees fit. Its not a relentless use of a system that has made United so good (aside from the players!) its a work ethic in the United side that Fergie demands, and having an instinct and understanding of when to use certain set ups, players etc.

You're right most don't use it now, but its not to say we should dismiss it out of hand given our struggles at the moment.

I think the other thing that makes Fergie so good is he has had better players than us over ten years! If we have better players than Man UTD he buys ours (sad but true)! So the system is not really the point. No one players 442 but with out team 4 or 5th is best we going to get with what ever system. However I think it's easier on coaching etc etc as most of Europe play one upfront.

 

[Mr Pink]

I think the other thing that makes Fergie so good is he has had better players than us over ten years! If we have better players than Man UTD he buys ours (sad but true)! So the system is not really the point. No one players 442 but with out team 4 or 5th is best we going to get with what ever system. However I think it's easier on coaching etc etc as most of Europe play one upfront.

er, yeah - I mentioned that in brackets

 

[Bus-Conductor]

No I came up with 2. Add Vertonghen into the mix as well if you want? We were clearly going for him before AVB, and carried on.

You then mentioned the 10 year thing, well he clearly wasn't acting like a DOF when we had an actual DOF in Arnesen/Comolli, why would you buy a dog and bark yourself?

It's almost like the situation has grown over time though.

Call it forced on the manager (probably too strong) or whatever you want, but I think it was pretty clear that AVB wanted Moutinho, did he want Sig/Demp/Dembele? Not by my reckoning.

I think I'm going to start a thread on this actual issue but for now, re what you are saying I think this:

You said Levy just decided he was going to be the DOF and sacked Comolli. I know that Redknapp said he refused to work under one (he also resigned/left Portsmouth when Mandric brought one in over his head I think) when he was initially interviewed after taking the job, saying that he didn;'t want to be answerable to someone else's purchases.

Perfectly rational to assume that AVB had little to do with Sigurdsson and Vertonghen. But AVB was in place when Dembele and Dempsey were signed. Hard to imagine he wasn't at least consulted even if in Dempsey's case it was a "it's him or nothing" type offer.

I wholeheartedly agree that AVB has probably not got a single player of his preferred choosing. And I believe that he deserves as many windows as is reasonable to rebuild a now depleted squad.

But I do not believe that there have been many players brought into the first team group by Levy without at least some degree of approval (even if reluctant) by a manager.

I also believe that Levy does not go off scouting players, like a DOF would, or that he actively undermines managers for the sake of it. I think he acts like many chairman around the world do, even the ones that have DOF's (like Aulas at Lyon) in taking a firm grip on the policy and parameters in which deals for players can be done. I think, like a DOF, he might occasionally choose to take the word of the clubs scouting sources over that of his managers when assessing whether a deal is done (although I think that possibly only applies to the latter part of Redknapp's managerial reign) and by and large I think that it is the right thing for him to do and more often than not it has benefitted our club in the medium/long term and more importantly is understandable given the finical situation of our club and the business of football in general.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

I think I'm going to start a thread on this actual issue but for now, re what you are saying I think this:

You said Levy just decided he was going to be the DOF and sacked Comolli. I know that Redknapp said he refused to work under one (he also resigned/left Portsmouth when Mandric brought one in over his head I think) when he was initially interviewed after taking the job, saying that he didn;'t want to be answerable to someone else's purchases.

Perfectly rational to assume that AVB had little to do with Sigurdsson and Vertonghen. But AVB was in place when Dembele and Dempsey were signed. Hard to imagine he wasn't at least consulted even if in Dempsey's case it was a "it's him or nothing" type offer.

I wholeheartedly agree that AVB has probably not got a single player of his preferred choosing. And I believe that he deserves as many windows as is reasonable to rebuild a now depleted squad.

But I do not believe that there have been many players brought into the first team group by Levy without at least some degree of approval (even if reluctant) by a manager.

I also believe that Levy does not go off scouting players, like a DOF would, or that he actively undermines managers for the sake of it. I think he acts like many chairman around the world do, even the ones that have DOF's (like Aulas at Lyon) in taking a firm grip on the policy and parameters in which deals for players can be done. I think, like a DOF, he might occasionally choose to take the word of the clubs scouting sources over that of his managers when assessing whether a deal is done and by and large I think that it is the right thing for him to do and more often than not it has benefitted our club in the medium/long term and more importantly is understandable given the finical situation of our club and the business of football in general.

That bit in bold is true, but that was because there was another layer between the Chairman and the Manager. Effectively, what I'm saying is that Levy took on a dual role, one of Chairman/DOF. And to be honest, after the fiasco with Comolli spunking a load of money on players that we didn't need at the time, I'm not surprised he took a lot keener interest.

But what I'm saying is this has now evolved, in theory I'm only talking Levy in the last 18 months, I'm not talking Levy in his whole tenure as Chairman. If you had said to me 18 months ago, Levy has his own scouting team that he takes note from and doesn't work in tandem with the Coach/Manager, I'd have said you were talking bollocks. Now though, I'd find it a lot harder to disagree.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I don't buy into that theory, but I question why we left it so fucking late.

Surely it was because of the same reason that many deals are left that late. Because until the last minute Porto's chairman was hoping that someone with more money than us was going to come in and trump our best offer like they did with Hulk.

It's not as if it's just spurs/levy that do business on deadline day is it. ManC did five deals. Arsenal/Arshavin, ManU/Berbatov, manC Robhino etc etc and a million other less high profile ones.

 

[ohwhenthespurs]

All this continental style of football is crap and not working…. We don’t have the right squad for it and it hasn’t worked all season, we are only where we are in the league because other teams around us haven’t been consistent.

Oh god, do people really still think things like this?
That the rest of Europe is one homogenous block of 'continentals' who play the game in the same, but vastly inferior way to the English, and simply can't handle the pace and physicality of the Premier League.
It's like listening to that cretin Ray Parlour on Talksport.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Surely it was because of the same reason that many deals are left that late. Because until the last minute Porto's chairman was hoping that someone with more money than us was going to come in and trump our best offer like they did with Hulk.

It's not as if it's just spurs/levy that do business on deadline day is it. ManC did five deals. Arsenal/Arshavin, ManU/Berbatov, manC Robhino etc etc and a million other less high profile ones.

Not really, it didn't appear that Porto wanted to sell him.

Come on mate, those last examples are completely different scenarios. Man City do deals when they want, they leave it late because there is zero negotiation.

Robinho is a poor example as they only got taken over by Sheikh Yarbooti on the morning of that day. Remember that great manager Mark Hughes being told he'd basically won the lottery while he was on the golf course?

And Man United bought Berbatov last knockings because they were dealing with us, you know what Daniel Levy is like, he's different.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

That bit in bold is true, but that was because there was another layer between the Chairman and the Manager. Effectively, what I'm saying is that Levy took on a dual role, one of Chairman/DOF. And to be honest, after the fiasco with Comolli spunking a load of money on players that we didn't need at the time, I'm not surprised he took a lot keener interest.

But what I'm saying is this has now evolved, in theory I'm only talking Levy in the last 18 months, I'm not talking Levy in his whole tenure as Chairman. If you had said to me 18 months ago, Levy has his own scouting team that he takes note from and doesn't work in tandem with the Coach/Manager, I'd have said you were talking bollocks. Now though, I'd find it a lot harder to disagree.

Ok, and as I have said (and previously) I can believe that there are times Levy acts as a kind of de facto DOF, and I fully understand why. Redknapp wasted a lot of money on players with very little inherent value. Redknapp effectively was allowed (by the stupid chairman) to bankrupt Portsmouth the same way.

I believe that in the last year to eighteen months there may have been decisions taken by Levy based more on the scouting network (whatever that comprised of) than on his manager. But how many ? and what impact, positive and negative ? And what were the alternatives and were they any better ?

Bottom line question remains, how many players have been brought in without a managers consultation at all. And here's a supplementary question:

How many players that a manager has wanted, that were easily achievable (financially and otherwise) and would have come to the club but Levy actively blocked for purely footballing reasons ?

 

[MisterC]

Having unlimited funds helps, but it is really not the only way. Certainly not to having a decent side challenging regularly for a top 4 place. We ourselves have proved that, Arsenal prove that, and all over Europe clubs like Dortmund & Montpellier prove it.

Maybe to challenge for the title every year in our league would be difficult with our budget, but look at what Ajax & Dortmund have done to ManC, the richest club in the world. Played them off the park. It is not all about money.

Yeah I agree with you, I don't have much time to explain myself.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Oh god, do people really still think things like this?
That the rest of Europe is one homogenous block of 'continentals' who play the game in the same, but vastly inferior way to the English, and simply can't handle the pace and physicality of the Premier League.
It's like listening to that cretin Ray Parlour on Talksport.

Dey tuk er jobs!

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

That was luck...

So we luckily scored 3 goals?

Comments like this make me laugh. So when we win it's luck and when we lose AVB has got his tactics wrong. Yeah, right, that seems like a fair and even assessment.

 

[AngerManagement]

So we luckily scored 3 goals?

Comments like this make me laugh. So when we win it's luck and when we lose AVB has got his tactics wrong. Yeah, right, that seems like a fair and even assessment.

Any win at Old Trafford is a great result

That being said, of course we were lucky to come home with the 3 points

Utd had like 3 penalties turned down, 2 of which were clear cut and they battered us senseless for the entire second half as we held on for dear life by hook or crook as they hit the wood work more than once and missed countless good opportunities

We played well first half and hit them early, but then to be fair this has been quite a frequent occurrence this season at Old Trafford as Utd have found themselves behind early doors time and time again.

I don't think it's right to dismiss the result because it was very impressive and something to be proud of but I also don't think we can keep reeling it out as proof positive to suggest we are in good shape or AVB is doing a good job because we really did ride our luck and you'd think if we played that same games 100 more times we'd lose them all on the balance of play that day.

In short yes it was impressive and first half we played very well but yes we were also very very lucky to actually get the win

 

[L-man]

Didn't want to make a new thread with this, if anyone feels it warrants one, feel free...

The original JJetset @jetsetyid
Players not happy with AVB :0( They are as fickle as some fans! Andy Carroll story has some truth in it too....

Edit: Reading through his tweets and there's this:

In response to were Dempsey and Sig AVB signings - No definitely not but he didn't want our full backs JV or MD ! He wanted hulk too for up front but 40 mill!

 

[antlesh]

Better tonight? He will go back to 4231 against city which I can understand slightly as we have to show them a little respect but wouldn't be good to see Sandro back instead of Carroll who by the way is coming on a treat and see him start with adebayor and jermaine somehow?