Why people must now accept the terrible state we are in.

[HodisGawd]

Forgot to say, I blame Jenas. His set pieces are appalling, he's no captain and he's massively over-rated.

I can see why people think he's good or going to be good - because he's looks like he should be good. But he isn't, so let's all just accept that.

 

[rez9000]

Thanks for the article - it was a good, interesting read. I don't agree with a single word of it though.

Are you sure? :grin:

The last thing we need is big changes. I can understand the argument for a new manager, but if we have to I'd like a guy who'll come in and work mainly with this squad, but just fill in the holes with a few new players.

Yeah, I'm not with Azrael on that particular point either (sorry, Az. )

A new manager should be one who can take what he's given and make a team. And that's perfectly feasible. Our squad is bloody good. Way better than a lot of other teams in the PL.

Ironically, it's exactly what didn't happen with Ramos. His apologists trotted out the 'wait until he gets his players in and see what he can do'. He did. And we are.

We have good players. They're just not playing well together. And in some positions we're a bit light.

What we need is to get them playing well together. Then we'll be a VERY good side.

And I'd say it was Ramos' responsibility to make sure they play well together.

If you think Ramos is to blame fair enough, but let's not panic and rip up the club and start again.

I don't think it'll happen. I think that any replacement will look at the Spurs squad and think that he can do something with it, which he can.

Personally I don't want Ramos to go, I think he's a good manager.

And you're basing that assessment on what? If it's his Seville record, I think you should go and check out his pre-Seville days. I'm pretty sure you'll change your mind.

However, I also think he has to go because if he doesn't it makes Levy look like a twat. Although in the same way Levy'll look a twat for bringing him in in the first place if he goes.

Yes. I also feel that Levy may be exacerbating the situation if he is letting his pride prevent him from pulling the plug on Ramos.

Levy's logic was to sack Jol and bring in Ramos because Jol's two good seasons and then a bad start to the third were'nt good enough.

However, Ramos has had a TERRIBLE start to this season and we're playing far worse than we EVER did under Jol.

This time last year we may have had a dodgy defence but we were still full of confidence going forward and scoring loads of goals, the only problem was the oppo were scoring more.

Now we have a marginally better defence but absolutely nothing going forward. I know which one I'd rather have out of those two situations.

So, by that logic Ramos has to go - how can Lev justify sacking Jol but not sacking Ramos?

You're right. And it's something that so many of us refuse to see.

 

[Azrael]

Forgot to say, I blame Jenas. His set pieces are appalling, he's no captain and he's massively over-rated.

I can see why people think he's good or going to be good - because he's looks like he should be good. But he isn't, so let's all just accept that.

Yes, he's shite, but he's surely not responsible for it all!!!!

 

[Azrael]

Yeah, I'm not with Azrael on that particular point either (sorry, Az. )

For the record, I only meant wholesale change with the coaching set up and the board. I wasn't suggesting getting a whole load of new players.

 

[rez9000]

For the record, I only meant wholesale change with the coaching set up and the board. I wasn't suggesting getting a whole load of new players.

I understand. And I'd gos so far as the coaching setup, but not the board because I don't see it happening, and I believe it may cause more problems than it would solve. I think that Levy needs to change a few policies here and there and much of the turmoil surrounding the club (long term) would disappear. I prefer to think of him as misguided rather overtly trying to screw us over.

 

[Dezzydez]

I'm not sad Jol went, I realy thought he got us as far as he could, but he did build a solid team. I really thought Ramos could take us further, but the eviudence at the moment appears that he can't handle/understand the premiership and grinding out results.

I think we really ballsed it up by getting rid of solid dependeable guys such as Lee, Tainio (DM), even Malbranque! Like someone else said, they were playing like a team.

Jenas is not worth the hype and not a leader. We miss Edgar David's authority and experience.

The striker situation is not working, I am for giving Campbell more games and play 442. But we still have a great team, just not playing to their strengths..

 

[Azrael]

I understand. And I'd gos so far as the coaching setup, but not the board because I don't see it happening, and I believe it may cause more problems than it would solve. I think that Levy needs to change a few policies here and there and much of the turmoil surrounding the club (long term) would disappear. I prefer to think of him as misguided rather overtly trying to screw us over.

I don't see the board changing either. All I'm saying is that is part of the solution for me, but I know realistically its not going to happen...and this is why I say we are in deep shite.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I absolutely agree. What gets me about the Ramos defenders is that amount of excuses they'll come up with forgets the fact that he has thus far generated one of the all time worst records in the premier league to date. They have mocked other teams' managers with superior records repeatedly in the past yet this time around they can't bring themselves to think about and accept the obvious.

Are you sure? :grin:

Yeah, I'm not with Azrael on that particular point either (sorry, Az. )

A new manager should be one who can take what he's given and make a team. And that's perfectly feasible. Our squad is bloody good. Way better than a lot of other teams in the PL.

Ironically, it's exactly what didn't happen with Ramos. His apologists trotted out the 'wait until he gets his players in and see what he can do'. He did. And we are.

And I'd say it was Ramos' responsibility to make sure they play well together.

I don't think it'll happen. I think that any replacement will look at the Spurs squad and think that he can do something with it, which he can.

And you're basing that assessment on what? If it's his Seville record, I think you should go and check out his pre-Seville days. I'm pretty sure you'll change your mind.

Yes. I also feel that Levy may be exacerbating the situation if he is letting his pride prevent him from pulling the plug on Ramos.

You're right. And it's something that so many of us refuse to see.

I assume both of you would have me in the Ramos apologists camp. I think if either of you read my ratings posts you will see me criticise Ramos in exactly the same way as I did Jol when I think he has blundered.

But if you actually watch the games we have dominated possession in every game bar one I think. (most cases by 60+%) this is not a "team" under performing. It is a team, mainly struggling to score.

But what I would say, and genuinly believe, is that that losing three very established strikers (two very good, one absoloutely top drawer creator as well as scorer) in two consecutive windows and not having adequate replacements (for different reasons) is easily at the heart of what is wrong at the moment.

You both know my opinion on Bent from the get go. I said all along he was not good enough, very limited and vastly over priced. For a team like ours who want to play football he is was a poor choice.

Pavlyuchenko I think was a great acquisition but he's been playing since Jan in harsh conditions with a euro sandwiched in between. We all know this can be a tough league to settle but under those circumstances, in a team full of new players as well, very much not ideal.

And lastly we still lack leadership, especially in the form of a midfield pitbull.

We all know that Ramos was powerless regarding Keane and Berbatov and would almost certainly have requested suitable relacements found. We also know that we were very close to Arshaving which would (combined with pav) have really helped us creatively and goal wise.

I have always defended the DOF role and continue to believe in it. But what I would concede is that very possibly Comolli must take greater responsibility for our current plight. I hold him directly responsible for sanctioning the ridiculous 16m purchse of Bent.

And Unless someone proves otherwise I believe as DOF knowing Keane & Berbatov were off and Defoe already gone should have made sure we had more than Bent & Pav as recognised senior strikers - especially knowing the situation with pavlyuchenko.

I've always thought Comolli did a pretty good job. Accepting the odd bent (and Bentley at 15m for that matter) as inevitable when also making great signings as well. But this current striker predicament I'm pretty sure (even he admitted on the official site) is more down to him than Ramos.

Be honest fellas, could we play much better than we did in most games recently ? Is it Ramos's fault that Bentley has all of a sudden forgotten how to cross, or that Bale comits harry carry ten minutes into a tough game ? Or that in three games running we didn't get clear cut penalties ?

 

[SpurSince57]

I'm not sad Jol went, I realy thought he got us as far as he could, but he did build a solid team. I really thought Ramos could take us further, but the eviudence at the moment appears that he can't handle/understand the premiership and grinding out results.

I think we really ballsed it up by getting rid of solid dependeable guys such as Lee, Tainio (DM), even Malbranque! Like someone else said, they were playing like a team.

Jenas is not worth the hype and not a leader. We miss Edgar David's authority and experience.

The striker situation is not working, I am for giving Campbell more games and play 442. But we still have a great team, just not playing to their strengths..

With the players he had available, he did. I didn't subscribe to the 'he can't take us to the next level' rubbish that was being parroted around, and still don't. Ramos, on the other hand, looks as if he can—only at the moment it's not the level most people were thinking of.

On the other hand, before the season started very few were expressing any doubts about Ramos, or our summer signings.

 

[Azrael]

Be honest fellas, could we play much better than we did in most games recently ? Is it Ramos's fault that Bentley has all of a sudden forgotten how to cross, or that Bale comits harry carry ten minutes into a tough game ? Or that in three games running we didn't get clear cut penalties ?

To a degree I think you have to say yes, it is his fault. A coach has to motivate players and to pick teh right one for the side. It's his job. Do you think if these players were playing under SAF or Arsehole Wenger they'd be this bad? Ramos has to take some of the responsibility.

 

[Damian99]

As much as i was screaming for a penalty against stoke, the ball clearly hit the guys chest, although had i been the Ref i would have given a penalty and sent him off and played whatever injury time needed for us to score another and make it 2-3 although with our strikers that could have meant playing on until atleast tomorrow.

 

[Mullers]

Be honest fellas, could we play much better than we did in most games recently ? Is it Ramos's fault that Bentley has all of a sudden forgotten how to cross, or that Bale comits harry carry ten minutes into a tough game ? Or that in three games running we didn't get clear cut penalties ?

If Bentley and Bale were playing brilliantly and if we won ten games on the spin not playing at our best I am sure Ramos would get the credit so he should take the flak when players aren't performing and when were losing games.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

To a degree I think you have to say yes, it is his fault. A coach has to motivate players and to pick teh right one for the side. It's his job. Do you think if these players were playing under SAF or Arsehole Wenger they'd be this bad? Ramos has to take some of the responsibility.

Of course, and as I said at the beginning, when I feel he is respnsible or partly so I don't hold back from saying so.

But what I'm seeing most weeks is a very motivated team. Aren't you. Which games this season do you think we have come out and not put much effort in ? Genuine question.

I think tactically Ramos has dropped a couple of clangers so far but by and large his team selection has been pretty good and the team have not looked half arsed have they ?? or do you think different ? genuine question.

 

[Azrael]

Of course, and as I said at the beginning, when I feel he is respnsible or partly so I don't hold back from saying so.

But what I'm seeing most weeks is a very motivated team. Aren't you. Which games this season do you think we have come out and not put much effort in ? Genuine question.

I think tactically Ramos has dropped a couple of clangers so far but by and large his team selection has been pretty good and the team have not looked half arsed have they ?? or do you think different ? genuine question.

Can't agree. Some of his decisions have been utterly mind blowing. I think you must be watching a different side!

That said, I think any side that has such glaring gaps in certain parts of the squad will struggle no matter how the rest of the team is playing.

 

[Azrael]

There has been and is going to be a lot of debate over the course of the coming week about whether or not we, as Spurs fans, should panic at the current state of our club. Are we in a crisis? Or are some of us being dramatic and going over the top? Graham Roberts says we are in dire straits. Gary Mabbutt says it’s not that bad and Ramos is our man.
Well, I want to take a good long look at the list of problems the club has and why I think fans must be realistic and appreciate that not only are we in a bad way, but there is no way to remedy it. We must brace ourselves for the likeliness of relegation and the possibility of playing one, or more, seasons in the Championship. If one looks at the statistics of all other relegated clubs this is an extremely realistic possibility and those fans who kid themselves that there’s very little chance it’ll happen and still have their eyes set on more European football should really begin to take note.
I feel that to enable all fans to understand why our situation is dire it’s important to review the mistakes made by Levy &Co, consider the problems and the positives of our current situation and the consequences of relegation.

The Mistakes

· Sacking Jol for a mediocre replacement. Whilst I don’t think any of us would have predicted that things would be this bad I, for one, was not in favour of the appointment of Ramos. Before Sevilla his record was abysmal and there was no way he was going to be the great messiah. His appointment is proof of how much Levy actually knows about football. I always accepted that Jol had taken us as far as possible, but the solution was to go one step up, not bring in someone at essentially the same level. We must remember that Ramos’s success in the cups were in knock out competitions and this is not always an indicator of how good someone will be in the league over the long term, especially a foreign one. Ramos must take some of the blame for the current state of the team.

· Gus Poyet as a credible member of the coaching staff. Not many people will talk about Gus due to the great affection people have for him. I love the guy too. But people seem to forget that it was only a few years ago that he was playing for us. To bring him into the coaching staff, when he’s totally unproven, was extremely risky.

· The striker situation. I think all fans now agree that the situation with our strikers is absurd. To lose the best strike force in the country and replace it with a non-English speaking Russian who’s vastly out of his depth and a one year child from Man Utd beggars belief. Berbatov was going, we all knew that. Why didn’t Levy & Commoli? Why didn’t they have a replacement? Keane wasn’t so obvious….but his loss has cost us much more than Berbatov’s as now we have no leader and no linchpin. Where is our Keane replacement? Arshavin? Well, he was £3m too much wasn’t he and things couldn’t get in the way of “good business”.

· The signing of Jenas and his captaincy. Yup, it maybe from the Jol era but the day this man signed for us I said he wasn’t up to the job. He’s proven as much over several years now. The Jenas defenders say “give him time”, but how long does he need? He’s not like Defoe, who never got a regular run. This guy always features and half the time he’s bloody awful. But to take such a mediocre player, who cannot dictate a midfield to save his life, and make him captain? My god. I just fail to understand it.

· Wholesale changes. It was silly to sell the players from Jol’s squad such as Tainio, Steed, Chimbonda, etc. They may not have been good enough to take us into the top four, but they knew how to play together. If they were going to be eased out fine, but its utter stupidity to replace a proven squad for a bunch of people who’ve never played together overnight, then take away the strike force, and expect results. The new boys should be been eased in gradually.

· Language barriers. We have a Spanish coach who needs to speak through Gus half the time. So, immediately something gets lost in translation. Then there’s all the players who can’t speak English at the moment….they need to be translated to as well. Get the picture? It must be bad enough in training but how the hell do the players and coach communicate in the heat of the moment on the pitch?


The Positives

· We have a squad full of international players. No squad as good as this has been relegated to my knowledge.

· We still have a lot of games to go, during which it will be hard, but not impossible, to rescue ourselves.

The problems that now face us.

· Relegation. Only a fool would look at the present situation and insist that relegation is not now a very real prospect. In today’s footballing world relegation would spell the end of Tottenham Hotspur as we know it and would hit us much harder than our last relegation. There is too much money tied to the premiership, sponsorship deals, TV rights and so forth for us to lose if we are relegated…to say nothing of the majority of our squad departing. How many internationals want to play in a lower league? If we go down we will have a real fight to come back up and if we did come back up, we would no longer be the viewed as anything more than another West Ham or Fulham.

· Avoiding relegation. We can still do it with the amount of points available, but if we can’t beat Hull and Stoke, what chance do we have of beating the likes of Man U, Arsenal and Liverpool? Not a hope in hell in my book. People say we will fix the squad in January, but who the hell wants to join a basement club??? Besides which, January, on present form, will simply be too late.

· Players with no confidence. We have a squad of players who simply aren’t used to this kind of situation. They simply cannot pick themselves up. We need a couple convincing wins to begin to pick them up, but again this may come too late. We simply cannot now afford to “give them time”.

· Cup focus. Everyone, from the players, board, manager, coaches to the fans should forget about the cups. This is not longer a season for glory. It is a season for survival. Nothing else matters and players should not be rested for use in cups games.

· Ramos out? He needs to go, but who’s going to replace him at the moment? There aren’t any real candidates.


Conclusions

What I fear the most is that we have now gone beyond the point of no return. The only solution, to my mind is wholesale change.

Levy needs to go because he can’t understand that football isn’t like a regular business. He fails to grasp that his fantastic performance in the transfer market is going to come back and bite him on the arse because football is more than just balancing books and making short term returns. Plus, how much does he really listen to his managers? Ramos was quoted in the Metro this morning say that it is “hard to speak to the Chairman as he is very busy”.

Commoli needs to go because his utter failure to remedy the striker situation is inexcusable and makes his position untenable.

Ramos needs to go because quite simply he obviously doesn’t know what to do. He’s well out of his depth and doesn’t know where to turn. Problem is that getting rid of just one of the three as the fall guy still leaves us with a couple rotten apples. All must be and surely are accountable for the present situation.

But, let’s be realistic. This isn’t going to happen. If there’s a sacking, only one will go. At best Levy might have the guts to boot out both Ramos and Commoli. But, again, we have the aforementioned problem of getting a replacement. Fact is that there aren’t any and the rot is set to continue with the current set up. The transfer window prevents us from panic buying so we can’t fix the on field problems either. But January it will all be too late and we will be heading towards the Championship, if we aren’t already.

Many people will right all this off as drama. But I think when you look at all the things I have listed above only a fool wouldn’t fully appreciate what a monumental task faces now and we haven’t got the recourses to take it on. I fear that we are witnessing the death of Tottenham Hotspur as we know it and as I type this I have tears streaming down my cheeks.

I thought I'd bump this thread as I feel somewhat vindicated now that two out of three of what I said needed to happen has happened and Levy's "open letter" pretty much addresses all that I have said about almost as if he had read what I had said (yes, yes, I know he hasn't:roll.

 

[jamesc0le]

Ramos ITK from Rabbi Crackers on FTL
and it ain't good reading, especially after Levy's open letter
Quote:
spoke to someone that was on the phone this morning with ramos ....

Ramos had a list of players he wanted in the window...comolli to his credit had them lined up....levy said no to most of them as he wouldnt pay the money...they wasnt crazy 200k per week deals or owt.

ramos says from that last day of the window he knew it was over and that levy had no intention to run the club as a football club but rather as a player trading business.

this ties in with a meeting i was told of pre window where ramos asked levy what his intentions were and that if he wants to be succesful he has to let go of the purse strings a little.


this all ties in with levy's statement today ....the part where he says he has been accused of putting business infront of football is imho a dig at ramos....also just the whole flavour of his statement was

'ooh look how great ive been with the bank balance...sory thats affected the football'

so there you have it ....i think redcrap will be the perfect manager for a levy spurs as levy has provided a redcrap style squad and spending style...


ramos was and is clearly not that type of manager, he came to spurs on promises not kept.
__________________

 

[miso_kool]

lol

 

[Azrael]

Ramos ITK from Rabbi Crackers on FTL
and it ain't good reading, especially after Levy's open letter
Quote:
spoke to someone that was on the phone this morning with ramos ....

Ramos had a list of players he wanted in the window...comolli to his credit had them lined up....levy said no to most of them as he wouldnt pay the money...they wasnt crazy 200k per week deals or owt.

ramos says from that last day of the window he knew it was over and that levy had no intention to run the club as a football club but rather as a player trading business.

this ties in with a meeting i was told of pre window where ramos asked levy what his intentions were and that if he wants to be succesful he has to let go of the purse strings a little.


this all ties in with levy's statement today ....the part where he says he has been accused of putting business infront of football is imho a dig at ramos....also just the whole flavour of his statement was

'ooh look how great ive been with the bank balance...sory thats affected the football'

so there you have it ....i think redcrap will be the perfect manager for a levy spurs as levy has provided a redcrap style squad and spending style...


ramos was and is clearly not that type of manager, he came to spurs on promises not kept.
__________________

Well, if you believe the Sun this morning it was apparently Commoli who bungled it. I guess we'll never really know. :shrug:

 

[Bristol Coys]

It's obvious that Ramos was almost as screwed over as Jol.

However, Harry is a great appointment, in terms of the future he is great at developing players and many years younger than Scholari or Fergie.

I appreciate the open honesty of Levy's letter. All this ITK BS about who said and did what is fairly irrelevant now.
1) Levy runs the club.
2) He knows he is at least partly culpable and has held his hand up.
3) He is under massive pressure to produce in the January transfer window
4) Harry does not think their is an awful lot wrong with the squad.

I'm expecting; Arshavin, left wing, poss DM or flexible CB/DM.
and lets face it we have a damm good manager at finding players and doing deals.

 

[Azrael]

It's obvious that Ramos was almost as screwed over as Jol.

However, Harry is a great appointment, in terms of the future he is great at developing players and many years younger than Scholari or Fergie.

I appreciate the open honesty of Levy's letter. All this ITK BS about who said and did what is fairly irrelevant now.
1) Levy runs the club.
2) He knows he is at least partly culpable and has held his hand up.
3) He is under massive pressure to produce in the January transfer window
4) Harry does not think their is an awful lot wrong with the squad.

I'm expecting; Arshavin, left wing, poss DM or flexible CB/DM.
and lets face it we have a damm good manager at finding players and doing deals.

Arshavin? Knowing Harry he'll bring in a load of seasoned stop-gaps in January.