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Why Saturdays game and their 1st goal made my mind up

Legend10

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2006
10,847
5,277
This is not meant to be a rant against martin Jol but a point of view that was finally swayed against him on Saturday.

I think that over the last 3 years Jol has done a decent job at Spurs, not exceptional but decent. I have never been convinced by him and I have never been anti him, I have always sat somewhere in the middle and felt that he deserved a good shot at it. But saturday's performance and Arsenal's 1 st goal have finally convinced me that he is not the man to take us further forward.

Firstly Arsenals 1st goal was a disaster for us, admittedly both Daws and Steed made misjudgements and mistakes which led to the free kick. But free kicks are often conceded in these areas and you then have to defend them properly. Spurs over the last year have conceded far too many goals from set pieces so therefore you would assume that they work and work on defending them. Well saturdays set up for that free kick convinced me that either they don't work on defending them and if they do whoever is doing that coaching doesn't know what they are doing. Our starting line was actually alright, a couple of yards inside and that is where you would expect. But and I asked this question Saturday afternoon in the match thread and nobody answered it...

Why was Gareth Bale designated to mark Adebayor? Even my mate and I sat there and went why the fuck is Bale picking up Adebayor? Lets suppose we actually do work on set pieces, who stood there on the training pitch and said "right when Arsenal have set playes Gareth you pick up Adebayor"
Anybody of any sanity would have Dawson and Kaboul picking up Adebayor and Gilberto, you then have Hudd to pick up Toure if he comes up and the rest go size for size where we match up very nicely with the likes of Berba, JJ, Bale and Chimbo. But to have Bale picking up Adebayor was a massively naive tactical error. Or we just didn't prepare properly for free kicks against, simple as that. If we did and bale wasn't meant to pick up Adebayor then it just hasn't been drilled home and that is what you do when you work on set plays you work and work on it until it is drilled home. And remember that free kick was taken twice and we had ages to prepare.

I'm not blaming Bale at all because he was asked to do a job that he should never have been asked to do in the 1st place. But once we were set up all Fabregas had to do was put in a semi decent ball and we were going to be in all sorts of trouble and low and behold that is exactly what he did. If daws or Kaboul pick up Adebayor I expect 1 of 3 things to happen.

1) They pretty much block his run and he doesn't get there.
2) He does get a run but they compete and either head clear or put enough pressure on him that he has to head under real pressure.
3) He gets a run and they ease him under the flight of the ball and he gets no real if any connection.

Maybe Robbo should have come and claimed but the way we set ourselves up to defend that free kick left us and Robbo extremely vulnerable. As it happens Fabregas put in a decent ball and Adebayor unchallenged and untouched strolled in more or less dead straight and headed into an empty as Gareth Bale got himself too afr wrong side and underneath the ball primarily because he is an inexperienced fullback being asked to mark the other teams tallest and most dangerous player from set pieces.

This goal can be blamed on Robbo, Bale, daws, or Steed but the whole problem started long before that by us being incorrectly or under prepared to defend set plays. This has now convinced me that we concede so many goals from set plays because we don't do enough or the right work on them.

Next lets talk about our tactical set up for this game which imho was all wrong.

The inclusion of Keane made no sense tactically at all, we knew Gilberto was going to play and it is clear to anybody that Gilberto would want the game to be played in front of him and not be turned around to face his own goal. Gilberto who looked well out of touch had a painfully easy afternoon against the totally ineffective Keane where as Bent with his forward running would have given Gilberto a nightmare. As it was Keane done nothing other than miss the 1 on 1 which is just one of those things and I hold no blame towards him for that. But that 1 on 1 had nothing to do with good play it was actually an errant back pass which just happened to find him. This was Keane's entire contribution to the match.

Now Bent also missed a 1 on 1 and an easier one than that, but there was a huge difference and that was that Gilberto couldn't deal with Bent's run in behind him, and that was with him only on for 10 minutes.

Next playing Bent would have meant that we could have played longer and turned Arsenal around which we desperately needed to do. By not doing so Arsenal were able to squeeze right up and compress the play into our half, as a result we played horrendously deep and left our midfield players with far too much distance to cover between our back line and helping our forwards, they did it for a while but eventually that becomes too much and they can cover the ground no more. Eventually our strikers become detached as the midfielders can't get there no more and this happened and when they do get there they can't get back and this happened on Arsenals second goal, quite simply Hudd and Steed didn't have it in them to cover the ground backwards as they were gone. Only JJ could do it and that is because JJ is a natural athlete.

Having seen the game develop in this manner and remember Bales free kick in the 1st half was actually our only shot of the half as Arsenal totally dominated Jol should have pulled Keane off put on Bent ordered us to play longer cutting out their midfield and told Daws and Kaboul to squeeze the game right upto the half way line so that our midfield boys had less ground to cover. But he didn't instead we just dropped deeper and deeper and eventually made it impossible for our midfield players.

Next point the substitution of Bale was imho a tactical mistake, bale was injured and had to come off which is fair enough. Bringing Lennon on gave Jol the chance to put him on the right and bring Steed over to the left. Jol surely had to do this as Clichey's runs were giving us all sorts of trouble down our right hand side. Just putting Lennon there regardless of what he does would have halted Clichey's runs as he knows if we break on them the other way as quick as he is he ain't catching Lennon. Instead we put him on the right against sagna who is arguably the better defender of the 2 full backs and had only ventured forward once all afternoon, Lennon on the left made no sense at all.

As has already been mentioned there is also the fitness levels but there is no point talking about them again.

For me Arsenal dominated this game and the reason was they were much better prepared and drilled for set pieces than us and their set up was correct for the game and ours was all wrong.

Arsenal played well saturday but boy did we help them and for me Wenger slaughtered Jol and finally convinced me that Jol can take us no further.

These were my observations, some of you may agree and probably most of you think I'm an idiot or worse but I just wanted to clarify why I am now in the Jol can take us no further camp.
 

Rupstoh

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2006
3,649
456
My opinion Legend10?

Robinson should go to rugby lessons and learn to clatter anyone, including our defence, onto the half-way line if the ball comes anywhere near our six yard box.

He doesn't - FACT.
 

AlexSkree

Member
Aug 21, 2006
851
-1
U dont think we maybe had two men on Adebayor or something? Bale and Daws? but Daws lost him..i really dont think we would have Bale alone on Adebayor when he is the only dangerous header they got really..And we got players like Huddle,Daws,Kaboul,Berba, Chimbonda, Jenas who can all win in the air..
 

Legend10

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2006
10,847
5,277
My opinion Legend10?

Robinson should go to rugby lessons and learn to clatter anyone, including our defence, onto the half-way line if the ball comes anywhere near our six yard box.

He doesn't - FACT.


I agree with that but it doesn't hurt to be set up properly in front of him
 

Legend10

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2006
10,847
5,277
U dont think we maybe had two men on Adebayor or something? Bale and Daws? but Daws lost him..i really dont think we would have Bale alone on Adebayor when he is the only dangerous header they got really..And we got players like Huddle,Daws,Kaboul,Berba, Chimbonda, Jenas who can all win in the air..


No we didn't, Daws didn't look at Adebayor at all and even if we did (which we didn't) Bale should have been the one in front.
 

Rupstoh

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2006
3,649
456
I said in an earlier thread that Kaboul stood on the edge of the 18 yard box marking grass.

I believe he should have been marking Adeybayor as he was no use to anyone where he was.
 

shelfspur

New Member
Aug 10, 2007
819
0
Jol isnt ever going to be the man to take us 'further forward'. We have the resources to be a Champions League football club - but Joly isn't ever going to be the man to take us there.
 

Legend10

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2006
10,847
5,277
I said in an earlier thread that Kaboul stood on the edge of the 18 yard box marking grass.

I believe he should have been marking Adeybayor as he was no use to anyone where he was.


It's so obvious that kaboul or daws should've been marking Adebayor, so how could we have got something so basic so badly wrong?

The only answer is that we didn't prepare properly and didn't do the required work.
 

N10toN17

New Member
Jan 22, 2007
1,288
1
Some very good points Legend, I was fairly puzzled why Daws or kaboul didn't take Adebayor, we are a shambles at set piece defending, I'm fed up of saying it.
 

dcarney75

A perfect blend of Steve Hodge and Andy Sinton...
Jan 15, 2007
933
310
Agree with the Keane/Bent thing - we let Gilberto off the hook there, in a big way.
 

DC_Boy

New Member
May 20, 2005
17,608
5
yep lots of good points -

for me steed plays better on the left, and lennon plays better on the right

Now ok the obvious retort is well Jol knows a lot more than me about tactics etc - well maybe he does, but I'd love to hear his reasons for what seems to so many (as lots have made the point about lennon & steed on sat) to be such a basic error

sat was also the day I decided Jol should go too. Of course I can see why it might be better to give him some more time. I doubt it will do us any good, but it's the way it's going to be so let's hope the players can get us out of this mess by winning our next three games or at least winning 2 of them and drawing with bolton
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
As you will probably know, I've always felt pretty similar about Jol. Had my doubts from way back and they have been reafirmed at various stages. The set piece issue is accurate. I mentioned in the ratings thread that dawson passes on responsibility at set pieces and he did this alot last year. He shirks responsibility.

EDIT IN
Forgot to say that our own set pieces without Bale are generally wank and show very little sign of training ground work. Usually consist of jenas under hitting or over hitting a ball to chimbonda.

I also mentioned the Lennon positioning in my ratings post.

I disagree about the tactic of starting Bent and "going long and bypassing the midfield". It could have been effective, I suppose, and Arsenal have often struggled against Bolton when a similar tactic is deployed but I personally don't think the rest of our team is set up and well enough drilled to play that way and on a personal level I think it is bloddy awful to watch.

Personally I would have dropped Keane and played a proper 5 midfield like this:

Lennon/Malbr Jenas Hudd Zok/KPB/Taarabt Bale

Instead on trying to bypass their midfield, try to match/outnumber it. A sort of footballing/Bolton solution. Try to control or at least nullify their midfield, not letting them control the game and with players like Lennon, Malbr, Bale we would have width to worry the and jenas, KPB or Taarabt we could support Berb down the middle. Hudd pulling strings and the defence with an extra bit of protection. We could have played them at their own game.

But I do basically agree with you and I don't know if you read my "JOL" thread a couple of weeks ago but I summed up my doubts which also include our fitness, sometimes motivation, movement off the ball and of course tactics. I also said that I thought he was the right man at the right time but that I too doubt his capability to be a top drawer coach. Even last week I raised I slightly whimsical thread about Jol not being nasty enough, strangely there was a similar article in the independant on Saturday.
 

tippspur59

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2006
2,771
2,522
Some people on here actually think that jenas played well,I thought he was the worst player on the field,so fuckin lazy it was unreal.
 

SpurSince57

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2006
45,213
8,229
Were we this bad at set pieces in 2004-2005 and 2005-2006?

What's perplexing about this is that in those two seasons we were very tight defensively, by Spurs standards at any rate, and now we appear to have reverted to type.
 

hybridsoldier

Well-Known Member
Aug 2, 2004
5,892
1,185
totally disagree, did you see our sides and what the hell we were doing between venables and jol?

he club was a sham and we are now genuine top 5, mr jol has done an absolutely unbelieveable and outstanding job

i still think he has taken us as far as he can, and its time for Ramos or Lippi to step up
 

Has1978

Well-Known Member
Jul 15, 2005
1,058
37
Legend10 - I actually agree with all of your points.

Set pieces have been our bane for a season and a half now.

Jol´s substitutions have consistently lost more points more than they´ve won.

However, on the basis that

1. He´s a stable guy, a good guy
2. A proven decent coach (apart from set pieces)
3. He fucking loves Spurs more than anyone (except ex players) ever could (especially some whore like Ramos)
4. He´s had some shoddy luck as well
5. Had his hands tied to an extent

And, we have made progress year on year with him - this is crucial - I feel he deserves a clear run to the end of the season. Fine, if he gets a 6th place with no cup success then we can say that he doesn´t have what it takes to take us further. But let´s give him the chance first I reckon. Cos he hasn´t actually let us down yet has he (over a season).
 

TheBlueRooster

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2005
3,818
4,707
totally disagree, did you see our sides and what the hell we were doing between venables and jol?

he club was a sham and we are now genuine top 5, mr jol has done an absolutely unbelieveable and outstanding job

i still think he has taken us as far as he can, and its time for Ramos or Lippi to step up

I feel he did an OK job. We finished fifth two seasons ago when we could have finished fourth by a long way. We were pleased because it was the best we had done for a long time. Stupid results then, last season and again this season is the reason we are in the position we find ourselves now. Like the majority I thank BMJ for what he's done, but I feel his time is up.
 

Thesoccershrink

Active Member
Nov 17, 2004
740
62
Maybe Robbo should have come and claimed but the way we set ourselves up to defend that free kick left us and Robbo extremely vulnerable.

As a former goalkeeper I'm really disappointed in the comments from people about Robbo's performance on Saturday. He did many things right and, as you say, he can't really be held responsible. There's a difference between coming for a ball flapping at it and someone gets behind you and heads it home and coming for a ball that is otherwise going to be headed home because the attacker has lost the defender. Robbo was caught there by poor marking and made the reasonable choice to try to get it rather than wait for the header being planted past him. Sometimes the choices you get in a game aren't great. If he had stayed on his line everyone would be saying he should have come for it.
 

justfookinhitit

Jedi Master
Aug 4, 2006
1,206
0
The one plus point of saturday (hard, I know to find one) was that finally we can threaten at set pieces when we let Bale take them. Not only did he score but his corners and free kicks pretty much all ended up in dangerous positions, which is something we just haven't had when JJ has been taking them.

Whatever happens with the manager, we need to spend some serious time on the training ground with our defence and midfield learning to operate as a unit. They just aren't doing it at the moment - they seem to think the plan is to leave a yawning gap between them all day long. We quite literally open ourselves up to quick-passing teams like the Arse.
 
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