Why Saturdays game and their 1st goal made my mind up

[Bus-Conductor]

http://img103.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=27426_00_08_39_122_901lo.JPG

From this first screen shot, we can see that we have three defenders all in line with the flight of the ball. No one is interested in the Arsenal players and they don't need to be. If defender 1 doesn't get to it, defender 2 gets it and if not defender 3 gets ii. If the ball is still too high for the 3rd defender, it isn't a problem as all Robbo has to do is complete the line. He can even use his arms, so the striker should have no chance. Once it's over Bales' head that is Robbo's, what thye'd call in the millitary, killing ground. If a ball is too high for the extended arms of the keeper, then it has to be going beyond the far post as it must be too high for the head of a striker. Hence Chimbonda is heading to the far post and JJ (out of shot) is already there. Everything is covered. We have positioned ourselves well.

But somehow, this happened:
http://img25.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=27430_00_08_40_122_941lo.JPG

I just don't see how BMJ is to blame. We've clearly got everything covered. Robbo has just had a moment of madness. he gets alot of stick and so far this season has been undeserving of it. But why or how he missjudged the ball so badly and went the other side of Adebayor is beyond me. But I'm pretty damn sure it wasn't on BMJ's advice. Looking at how we tried to defend that ball, i think it's pretty safe to say, we were coached to defend how I've suggested in the first paragraph. If everyone does there job, there isn't a problem.

That is no way zonal marking, if it is it was daft.

And why the fuck did Robinson run behind Adebayor. useles ****.

 

[Rupstoh]

Robinson's area from THAT free kick (6 yards at least and beyond) is his home.

If you wanted Adeybeyor to come in (as gentleman do), you'd open the door behind him to let him in first.

If you didn't, and he was a threat to your 'home', you'd take evasive action and take him (and the ball) out for a kick-around with the fairies.

The second photo says it all. I have done and still do, as much as 'Englands number one' is screamed out, question Robinson's/Jol's/Moniz/Hughton's tactics at set pieces around our own box.

 

[joey55]

http://img167.imagevenue.com/view.php?image=32959_00_08_11_122_707lo.JPG

Here you see the line exactly as I've explained, just after the goal has been scored. Obviously Bale and Dawson have moved out, but we see the gap where they were and we also Robbo, though he totally missed it, has finally got into position. We have berbatov, then Kaboul, then Dawson, then Bale all defending the area infront of the keeper. They are interested in their own positons and the flight of the ball, not the Arseanl players. After Robbo you see JJ in place to defend the far post . They are each defending an area or zone. Robbo failed to do this.

By contrast, here is a screen of the chance Arsenal cleared off the line form Berbs. They are man for man, and didn't change from this once the ball was in play.
http://img103.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=32961_00_10_24_122_805lo.JPG

Gilberto failed to keep to Berbs, but Arseanl got lucky.

 

[SpurSince57]

And while you've all been chatting, Arsenal beat Sevilla 3-0, the second goal from a set piece.

 

[N10toN17]

Great stuff Joey and Legend, having looked at it quite a bit, I'd say we are defending zonally as Joey has said, Le Arse look like they're going man for man in Joeys clip.

I personally would prefer us to go man for man, the zonal system brings diffusion of responsibility. Saying that our defenders look relatively blameless on this occasion and Robbo has had a shocker, but I won't go there as my feelings are quite clear on our keeper.

 

[Legend10]

Joey, I'm sorry mate it just doesn't show that to me at all.

First off 1 is a corner and 1 is a freekick 25yardsout and in from the touchline so the delivery is a totally different angle.

The 1st picture shows..

Chimbo is with Toure at the back stick.

JJ has left gilberto who started to go and then just stood as some players will do in these circumstances to find space if the ball is knocked down. JJ has gone because the flight of the ball has attracted him as it's in an area he may be able to make a clearance.

Bale is marking Adebayor but as I said got himself to far the wrong side and underneath the flight of the ball.

Dawson has also been attracted to the flight of the ball as it is not that far over his head.

The pictures that would better show would be one that showed the positions a second or 2 before the kick is taken because once the movement starts the picture changes dramatically.

As ever I respect your opinion but we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Legend10]

And while you've all been chatting, Arsenal beat Sevilla 3-0, the second goal from a set piece.

I'm ashamed to say I won £30 on that

Was anybody at fault with the set piece?

Like Ramos?

 

[SpurSince57]

I'm ashamed to say I won £30 on that

Was anybody at fault with the set piece?

Like Ramos?

Someone must have been. :grin:

 

[TopSpurMan]

I have to say I agree with many of the points that you make - there are many things about the way we play that confound me - remember the fulham game, we are 3-1 up and defending on our 18 yard line - when all our players are in our half robbo boots it to their keeper only to have it come straight back

At home to the arse 1 nil up - we camp in our half - we all know lennon is best on the right so when he is on he comes in on the left - weird why? Mad confusing - just watched Seville get beat but at least they played better than we did.

Overall we needed MJ but we should have switched management end of last season - not now - we should never have undermined him 3 games into a new season - he knows he has to keep the players on side because the board don't want him so some of his tactical decisions could be for all the wrong reasons - keeping players happy

Last but not least who decides which players we buy? DC or MJ is actually to blame for our disaster at the back, empty mid field and plethora of talent at the front getting frustrated because there is no service.

Which genius is it?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Surely the most relavent point is that if they are being told to zonal mark from a free kick of this kind it is poor coaching because if you are going to line up on your 18 yard line, you are certainly inviting the ball into an area which you are not marking.

 

[joey55]

Surely the most relavent point is that if they are being told to zonal mark from a free kick of this kind it is poor coaching because if you are going to line up on your 18 yard line, you are certainly inviting the ball into an area which you are not marking.

That would be a fair point if the deffence got the line wrong and the spaces between each other wrong. But they didn't. Every area was marked. What happened was a ridiculous situation by which the keeper somehow managed to run at an angle the wrong side of the striker. I just don't understand how he managed to do that. The whole point of how we've positioned ourselves is that if the defenders (who had all got in line with the flight of the ball) can't clear it, then the keeper should easily be able to deal with it.

 

[joey55]

Joey, I'm sorry mate it just doesn't show that to me at all.

First off 1 is a corner and 1 is a freekick 25yardsout and in from the touchline so the delivery is a totally different angle.

The 1st picture shows..

Chimbo is with Toure at the back stick.

JJ has left gilberto who started to go and then just stood as some players will do in these circumstances to find space if the ball is knocked down. JJ has gone because the flight of the ball has attracted him as it's in an area he may be able to make a clearance.

Bale is marking Adebayor but as I said got himself to far the wrong side and underneath the flight of the ball.

Dawson has also been attracted to the flight of the ball as it is not that far over his head.

The pictures that would better show would be one that showed the positions a second or 2 before the kick is taken because once the movement starts the picture changes dramatically.

As ever I respect your opinion but we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

From this it seems like you are judging the situation from before the ball is in play. The moment the ball is in play, every single Spurs defender, moves to defend an area. Not a single Spurs defender even glances at any Arsenal player. All they want is to get into position so the can defend the area, directly infront of them, that is in line with the flight of the ball. I seriously doubt you will find a set piece situation in which prior to the ball being kicked, the players aren't next to each other cancelling each other out, but if they are man marking them they will stay on them. But the moment Fabregas made contact with the ball, there was absolutley no interest in the positioning of Arseanl players, by Spurs defenders. All they wanted to do was defend that line. Bale seems to be the player you have most issue with, but he doesn't even look at Adebayor. Adebayor could have had a heart attack and Bale wouldn't have noticed.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I can't imagine the arsenal back four of Adams, Dixon etc ever contemplating zonal marking. Frankly it's fucking useless and a cop out for managers who can't organise and teams that can't defend properly.

It scares the shit out of me. We desperately need a leader back there who can organise on the pitch if we can't do it on the training ground.

Any suggestions ?

 

[SpurSince57]

I have to say I agree with many of the points that you make - there are many things about the way we play that confound me - remember the fulham game, we are 3-1 up and defending on our 18 yard line - when all our players are in our half robbo boots it to their keeper only to have it come straight back

At home to the arse 1 nil up - we camp in our half - we all know lennon is best on the right so when he is on he comes in on the left - weird why? Mad confusing - just watched Seville get beat but at least they played better than we did.

Overall we needed MJ but we should have switched management end of last season - not now - we should never have undermined him 3 games into a new season - he knows he has to keep the players on side because the board don't want him so some of his tactical decisions could be for all the wrong reasons - keeping players happy

Last but not least who decides which players we buy? DC or MJ is actually to blame for our disaster at the back, empty mid field and plethora of talent at the front getting frustrated because there is no service.

Which genius is it?

There is a difference between sitting back and being forced back. You'll notice that Arsenal succeed in forcing most sides back.

Putting Lennon on the left served the purpose of preventing Sagna getting forward, as he had been doing increasingly against the tiring Bale. Sagna had to go back to playing a more defensive role. He was also on a yellow and a clumsy challenge on Lennon might have seen him off. You could argue that Malbranque could have been put on the left and Lennon on the right, but Malbranque would not have carried the same degree of threat. He also has a habit of straying infield, in our own half. Also, the next substitution would see Malbranque coming off for a striker.

Sevilla were beaten 3-0. They had one shot on target, compared to our five; five corners against our eight. Yet they played better than we did. Right, good to see you can find extenuating circumstances for them, but not for us.

 

[Legend10]

From this it seems like you are judging the situation from before the ball is in play. The moment the ball is in play, every single Spurs defender, moves to defend an area. Not a single Spurs defender even glances at any Arsenal player. All they want is to get into position so the can defend the area, directly infront of them, that is in line with the flight of the ball. I seriously doubt you will find a set piece situation in which prior to the ball being kicked, the players aren't next to each other cancelling each other out, but if they are man marking them they will stay on them. But the moment Fabregas made contact with the ball, there was absolutley no interest in the positioning of Arseanl players, by Spurs defenders. All they wanted to do was defend that line. Bale seems to be the player you have most issue with, but he doesn't even look at Adebayor. Adebayor could have had a heart attack and Bale wouldn't have noticed.

http://img167.imagevenue.com/view.php?image=32959_00_08_11_122_707lo.JPG


Joey this just wrong

As I said before if we were marking zonal thegap between Bale and JJ on not only their starting positions but throughout the whole event is a joke, and if you were marking zonal this is still the most likely area for the ball to come into so you would put at leasy 1 of Daws or Kaboul in there.

All that has simply happened for you to say itis zonal is that JJ and daws have been attracted by the flight of the ball. Chimbo has stayed with Toure, bale has stayed with Adebayor and where JJ has been attracted while Gilberto has started his run and then just stopped to find space.

Let me ask you this if this is a zonal set up, what happens if Bale competes with Adebayor and the ball drops down into that bloody great area between the 6 yard box and the edge of the area where 3 Arse players are standing? Do you honestly think if we were marking space which is what zonal is that we would leave a bloody great hole like that just so that we could all get under the flight of the ball? Of course not.

If we are seriously setting up zonally for freekicks from this position and putting our big men (Daws, Kaboul, Berbs & Hudd) all across the front then we have more problems than I thought.

 

[joey55]

http://img167.imagevenue.com/view.php?image=32959_00_08_11_122_707lo.JPG


Joey this just wrong

As I said before if we were marking zonal thegap between Bale and JJ on not only their starting positions but throughout the whole event is a joke, and if you were marking zonal this is still the most likely area for the ball to come into so you would put at leasy 1 of Daws or Kaboul in there. It's not a joke. The space in between them is where Robbo has to win the ball. If a ball is so high that it can get over a 6ft + GK who can use his arms, so close to 8ft, then the ball is goig clear of the goal and JJ needs to be positioned where he is.

All that has simply happened for you to say itis zonal is that JJ and daws have been attracted by the flight of the ball. Chimbo has stayed with Toure, bale has stayed with Adebayor and where JJ has been attracted while Gilberto has started his run and then just stopped to find space. But they react the second the ball is struck, they have zero interest in what the Arsenal players are doing. Chimbo hasn't stayed with Toure. You are making it sound like Chimbo is aware where Toure is, but Chimbonda doesn't even look at Toure. Just because he's a couple of meters in fron of him doesn't mean he's man marking him. To have man marked him need to know where he was. Also Berbs, Kaboul, Dawson, Bale, JJ and Chimbs all follow the flight of the ball. You think Bale and Chimbonda were folowing Arseanl players, but if they were they were doing it without looking at them.

Let me ask you this if this is a zonal set up, what happens if Bale competes with Adebayor and the ball drops down into that bloody great area between the 6 yard box and the edge of the area where 3 Arse players are standing? Bale isn't competing with Adebayor. Bale is trying to defend the space in front of him. He doesn't know what Adebayor is doing. The point is, that if the ball goes over Bale, it shouldn't matter that Adebayor is there, as it should be Robbos. Do you honestly think if we were marking space which is what zonal is that we would leave a bloody great hole like that just so that we could all get under the flight of the ball? Of course not. But we'd adjust according to the flight of the ball. If we were man marking don't you think our players would at least be aware of what the Arsenal players are doing?

If we are seriously setting up zonally for freekicks from this position and putting our big men (Daws, Kaboul, Berbs & Hudd) all across the front then we have more problems than I thought.

.

 

[Legend10]

Circles and round spring to my mind

Your convinced your right, I'm convinced I'm right so lets just agree to disagree and hope that we don't concede any more goals like this.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I can't imagine the arsenal back four of Adams, Dixon etc ever contemplating zonal marking. Frankly it's fucking useless and a cop out for managers who can't organise and teams that can't defend properly.

It scares the shit out of me. We desperately need a leader back there who can organise on the pitch if we can't do it on the training ground.

Any suggestions ?

I can't believe you didn't say Richard "Fatty" Dunne (you have been)

 

[joey55]

Circles and round spring to my mind

Your convinced your right, I'm convinced I'm right so lets just agree to disagree and hope that we don't concede any more goals like this.

Fair enough, but I've just gone to the effort of uploading some pics of a Utd FK against Reading. It just shows what i consider to be man marking, from an FK in a similar position. Basically the Reading players stick to the Utd players like glue. They don't ever take their eyes off them and there is the usual shirt pulling etc associated with man marking.

http://img153.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=41238_00_46_01_122_670lo.JPG

But like you say, we could argue this till the cows come home.

Edit: The first pic was of even worse quality than this one so i've deleted it. It just showed the Reading players starting positions, which help to illustrate that they've moved with the Utd players, as seen in the remaining pic.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

It could just be that Jol threw the zonal marking curve ball in the interview to cover for the fact that we are just attrocious at man marking.

Wouldn't put it past him, he is very media savy.


Surely the bottom line is, what ever we are employing, we are doing it shit.