AVB felt let down wanted to leave !! long read but worth it...

[Imnotacticalgenius]

Would Moutinho have been able to turn Dawson into a CB capable of playing a high line against Aguero or Saurez? No, didn't think so. The fact is that AVB was too stubborn to adapt. The Chelsea players knew that his system didn't fit them and rebelled. At Spurs he was allowed to persist with it and we got tanked in quick succession. As I said in a different thread, AVB reminds me of a chef who, when given some of the best ingredients available, could only come up with a bowl of stodge.

What has Dawson got to do with this? What i am saying is that if AVB has Moutinho, it would be easier for AVB to preach his footballing philosophy to the team. Yes, I agree that AVB fails in that department - playing Dawson and yet playing the high line.....It was good earlier though with Vert and Rose in the back 4.....But without Rose and with Dawson in there, AVB should not employ the high line.The rebel in Chelsea is not about knowing his system but rather a few seniors did not want to believe in it. There were clashes of egos/personalities. Isn't it?

 

[Japhet]

What has Dawson got to do with this? What i am saying is that if AVB has Moutinho, it would be easier for AVB to preach his footballing philosophy to the team. Yes, I agree that AVB fails in that department - playing Dawson and yet playing the high line.....It was good earlier though with Vert and Rose in the back 4.....But without Rose and with Dawson in there, AVB should not employ the high line.The rebel in Chelsea is not about knowing his system but rather a few seniors did not want to believe in it. There were clashes of egos/personalities. Isn't it?

We'll never know what difference Moutinho might or might not have made, but what we do know is that AVB tried to implement his philosophy, even when it was blatantly obvious that it was tantamount to suicide. Good coaches are adaptable or at least only use systems when they have the personnel for them to work. Also, if AVB can't get his coaching methods across without Moutinho it doesn't bode well. By the law of averages, he would likely have underperformed in the dreary system used as badly as all the others.

 

[14/04/91]

AVB was stubborn about his system - we knew it when he was hired, and Levy even endorsed it.

Now, the high defensive line is facing a lot of criticism, but when Vert played CB and Rose at LB and Lloris was performing consistently (the first ten matches of the season or so) - then our defensive performances were some of the best we have seen in Spurs for years.

So play the high line when Verts (at cb) & Rose are fit. Don't play it with Dawson and Capoue.
This is another criticism of him. No plan b. An exceptional coach should be able to tailor his systems depending upon the opposition and his available players.

 

[14/04/91]

You may think that its nonsense, but a coach (even the top ones) would have an easier time, if he has an influential player who understand the system that he is preaching. Carvalho was brought to Chelsea by Mourinho. Mourinho also wanted Deco too, but Deco finally chose Barcelona, when initially he said he would be going to Chelsea.

Brendan Rodgers brought Joe Allen to liverpool with him right? There are many similar examples....

Of course he'd have an easier time. Moutinho is a class act and would influence a lot of teams in Europe.
But to say he was a big reason for AVB's failure (which was the point originally made) is clutching at straws. You cannot overly rely on one player.

 

[Gassin's finest]

Then again we could have signed Moutinho and he'd not adjusted to the Premiership.

 

[Ribble]

Of course he'd have an easier time. Moutinho is a class act and would influence a lot of teams in Europe.
But to say he was a big reason for AVB's failure (which was the point originally made) is clutching at straws. You cannot overly rely on one player.

It isn't just not signing Moutinho though, it's not signing anyone whatsoever like him in any of the windows the club had a chance to, and not even seeming to attempt to after totally screwing up the Moutinho deal.

If a player of his ilk was central to how AVB wanted to play and yet he was continually denied for no real reason, bar perhaps Levy being equally as stubborn, then he's never going to have been happy at the club or be able to implement his idea of the best way to play.


You know who the very first player arrival at Porto was after AVB took charge? Go on, have a guess.

 

[Imnotacticalgenius]

Of course he'd have an easier time. Moutinho is a class act and would influence a lot of teams in Europe.
But to say he was a big reason for AVB's failure (which was the point originally made) is clutching at straws. You cannot overly rely on one player.

I have not said that moutinho is a big reason for AVB's failure. I said moutinho would helped AVB to preach his philosophy better.

 

[Klinsmannesque]

I was a supporter of AVB until recent weeks - his stubborness and lack of adaption was there in plain view. We were playing a high line with a makeshift defence (Dawson) against one of the top strikers in world football and got taught a lesson - oh wait that lesson came a few weeks ago against another top forward line. The inverted wingers did not work. Its that simple. It crowded the middle, easy to defend against could only shoot from distance as the creative players didnt have the options they needed to split backlines - our build up was slow, boring, dull - there was no plan b as stated by others. I wanted him to suceed but he was too stubborn for his own good and just maybe not suited to the EPL. He would probably be more of a success in Italy where the play is slower and the build up is a lot more cautious.

 

[14/04/91]

It isn't just not signing Moutinho though, it's not signing anyone whatsoever like him in any of the windows the club had a chance to, and not even seeming to attempt to after totally screwing up the Moutinho deal.

If a player of his ilk was central to how AVB wanted to play and yet he was continually denied for no real reason, bar perhaps Levy being equally as stubborn, then he's never going to have been happy at the club or be able to implement his idea of the best way to play.


You know who the very first player arrival at Porto was after AVB took charge? Go on, have a guess.

He didn't sign him for Chelsea though who could afford ANY transfer fee or wages. If he was that central to the 'AVB philosophy' surely he would have been his first signing there also?

 

[eddiebailey]

And that is that AVB saw him as absolutely essential to implement his philosophy.

One has to question the genius of sticking to a tactical masterplan that is entirely dependent on one player whom you do not own.

 

[jambreck]

With all the things AVB is being blamed for, it is only fair to blame Levy for the Moutinho affair - at least based on what is somehow public knowledge.

And that is that AVB saw him as absolutely essential to implement his philosophy, and that he wanted to join us. Conducting the transfer is ultimately Levy's responsibility, and he failed.

Yes, he failed to sign a player.

That happens.

But his failure to sign Moutinho wasn't, in turn, a failure to support the manager - which is what this discussion is about.

 

[SuperPav]

One has to question the genius of sticking to a tactical masterplan that is entirely dependent on one player whom you do not own.

You might say that. You might also say that one has to question the genius of appointing a manager who sticks to a masterplan that is entirely dependent on certain players - and then not fulfilling his wishes.

And: It wasn't entirely dependent, but not signing obviously caused him to play a different system than he seemingly wanted to. You disagree?

Players such as Modric and Moutinho are extremely rare. Another example is Fernandinho - he held the same role at Shakhtar. And AVB was also after him.

The thing is that fans want scapegoats and simplistic denounciations. But this doesn't help the club forward. What happened was a large amount of events ultimately leading to failure for AVB. Some of those were caused by himself - stubbornness, relational skills etc. (it seems). But those are not really important anymore, because he is gone.

It is, however, extremely important to address any structural problems in the club, and how Levy is handling his job - and how he handled things under AVB. Because he is still here.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

What a load of bollocks.

I might be wrong but isn't Burt AVB's media ally ?

 

[Ribble]

He didn't sign him for Chelsea though who could afford ANY transfer fee or wages. If he was that central to the 'AVB philosophy' surely he would have been his first signing there also?

No, he tried to sign Modric and we all know what happened there. However there were rumours they were looking at Moutinho too, from AVB's mate Jason Burt no less: link

 

[CowInAComa]

Any manager whose masterplan hinges on signing the same specific 2-3 player everywhere he goes is a fraud.

 

[SuperPav]

Any manager whose masterplan hinges on signing the same specific 2-3 player everywhere he goes is a fraud.

That sounds smart. But why?

The things is: we lost two of the best players that will ever be in the club under AVB. They were both absolutely essential for us.

One might say AVB was foreseeing: that he knew that if we wanted to succeed, we needed exactly those players he were targetting.

Pure speculation, though.

 

[SuperPav]

No, he tried to sign Modric and we all know what happened there. However there were rumours they were looking at Moutinho too, from AVB's mate Jason Burt no less: link

Im wondering if the fact that Moutinho/Modric probably would have replaced Lampard weakened his case

 

[Ribble]

Any manager whose masterplan hinges on signing the same specific 2-3 player everywhere he goes is a fraud.

Every footballing masterplan relies on something, if a manager wants a specific player it'll be because they know that player can fulfil the role 100%. Capello took Emerson from Roma to Juventus and then to Real Madrid in his last stint as a club manager, does not wanting to find someone else for the role he filled make Capello a fraud?

 

[CowInAComa]

That sounds smart. But why?

The things is: we lost two of the best players that will ever be in the club under AVB. They were both absolutely essential for us.

One might say AVB was foreseeing: that he knew that if we wanted to succeed, we needed exactly those players he were targetting.

Pure speculation, though.

Over a season ago. Why are we getting thumped 5 and 6 nil a year later. Why cant we buy a goal a year later.

Nonsense. Clubs lose players, clubs buy players. We performed far below the level of the squad for way too long.

 

[CowInAComa]

Every footballing masterplan relies on something, if a manager wants a specific player it'll be because they know that player can fulfil the role 100%. Capello took Emerson from Roma to Juventus and then to Real Madrid in his last stint as a club manager, does not wanting to find someone else for the role he filled make Capello a fraud?

Of course managers have preferred transfer targets. But its a fool who cant adapt when they dont come off.