Dawson v Vertonghen debate

[Indisguise]

Let's not persist in discussing this interesting debate in the ITK thread.

 

[riggi]

or chat

 

[Indisguise]

or chat

Lol. Have I shot myself in the foot? Is "Chat" the wrong place? General football?

 

[LexingtonSpurs]

Vertonghen and Dawson were our most productive pairing as Center Backs - 2.27 PPG in 11 starts together.

 

[riggi]

Lol. Have I shot myself in the foot? Is "Chat" the wrong place? General football?

Spurs chat mate

 

[absolute bobbins]

Dawson vs Vertonghen in what?

Playing Cricket - Daws
Speaking Dutch - Verts
Crying in a football shirt - Daws (I love him for it too)
Cycling general knowledge - Verts
Playing football - Don't care, they're both as useful as a priest's pecker at the moment

 

[Bus-Conductor]

What is the debate exactly ?

 

[Sir Henry]

There's no debate.

 

[yankspurs]

There's no debate. Vertonghen is better in every way than Dawson. People got their panties in a bunch because I said I could care less what Dawson has done for the club. He should not be first team over Kaboul or Vertonghen.

 

[Gedson100]

What is the debate exactly ?

Someone said they'd flog Vertonghen to Utd for £20m

And a few people got indignant as if that was heresy, so I said:

Not sure why Vertonghen gets a free pass after a poor season. He was moody, performed well below par & apparently wanted out of the club. Yet a majority seem to think he's untouchable?

When you consider the shit Dawson gets, and I'm not his greatest fan, considering he's loyal, uncomplaining & a trier, it is puzzling.

If Vertonghen was to stay, he owes us a big, committed season.

Now: Just because I mentioned Dawson, even though I didn't directly compare their qualities, people decided to compare the two.

I maintain, Dawson has the level of a good Premiership standard centre back and provides that every game. It might not be enough for what we want, but that's what you get. Vertonghen could be World Class but for most of last season was disinterested, rumoured to have put transfer requests in and didn't reliably bring his 'A' game.
I also said this:

Is Vertonghen really that good? Really?
Or does he just look good on the ball & you like him?
None of our defence got through last season with an enhanced reputation & all will need to improve if they want long term careers here or at another big club.

&

It's been well documented (rumoured) that Vertonghen has wanted to leave the club since at least last summer.
If this is the case: don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Why is Jan immune to criticism? If he doesn't give a fuck about the club, why do so many care about him?

If he changes his mind or it isn't true then good luck to him, but I genuinely think that if some people came home to find Jan Vertonghen balls deep in their wife/husband, they'd probably congratulate him on scoring for the first time this season.

Vertongen is a good player. He needs to show it now or fuck off.

 

[RuskyM]

Jan Vertonghen is a better player than Michael Dawson. I doubt anyone other than Michael's mum would disagree.

My argument is that Jan's performances this season have been fucking disgusting. You're essentially giving me a choice between a good player playing awful because he doesn't care or an average player playing awful because he's an average player.

 

[Indisguise]

A few more to be getting along with:

i don't like players who don't care. vertonghen did not give a shit last season and it's amazing we'd get 20p on the back of his performances
yeah you can say backroom issues, players he was with blah blah blah a player should not regress that much that quickly, especially when he's on £60k a week
as for who i'd replace him with: lescott, garay, papadopolous

re dawson/vertonghen: yes, vertonghen is far, far, far the superior player.
i don't care. dawson grafts his knackers off every game, vertonghen was awful and gave nothing close to a decent performance, let alone his best. if dawson had vertonghen's work rate then all the abuse he gets might be warranted

Service to the club means diddly squat. By that measure, defoe was one of our best players and we all know how useless he was.

completely, completely wrong mate. Service to the club means a hell of a lot; 'course you do need to be able to back it up with ability - but Daws has served us like a pro. Spilt blood, taken knocks.

If you were on the Barcelona board, would you consider selling Messi because in the last couple of months or so he's been playing like he doesn't give a shit, yes I know it's an extreme example because these two players are polar opposites in terms of importance to to their respective clubs apart but I'm using him as an example to prove a point as the same logic applies. Sometimes you have to put up with things like that from your best players because I firmly believe that we will reap the long term benefits of a fully fit, focused and determined Jan Vertonghen playing for Spurs, he's the best defender at our club by an absolute country mile and he's one of the best in the league, we'd be stupid to let him go.

 

[idontgetit]

They play for the same side. Vertonghen is a better footballer. Dawson is Spurs through and through. Nothing really to debate when looking at it as 1 vs the other

 

[idontgetit]

I can't even be bothered to argue Spurs anymore but those who want to bash Verts are either fucking morons or just naive. We won't get a better defender so instead worry about how to get the best from him

 

[Geyzer Soze]

Susan Boyle

 

[guiltyparty]

What's the argument?

Fairly obvious the strengths and weaknesses of both

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Someone said they'd flog Vertonghen to Utd for £20m

And a few people got indignant as if that was heresy, so I said:


Now: Just because I mentioned Dawson, even though I didn't directly compare their qualities, people decided to compare the two.

I maintain, Dawson has the level of a good Premiership standard centre back and provides that every game. It might not be enough for what we want, but that's what you get. Vertonghen could be World Class but for most of last season was disinterested, rumoured to have put transfer requests in and didn't reliably bring his 'A' game.
I also said this:

&

Vertongen is a good player. He needs to show it now or fuck off.

I think Vertonghen took more stick than he deserved last season. I think in a world of diminishing CB's he's a bloody good one to have.

He's not perfect, he makes the odd blunder, but all CB's do, what he's capable of the rest of the time is superior to most CB's we've had in the last couple of decades.

I reckon Sherwood pissed him off royally. For Adebayor under AVB read Vertonghen under Sherwood. I think that who he was referring to when he was talking about "the player" after the Chelsea game.

I just think he needs to be played in his best position, and a coach that can get him enjoying his football again. He'll still make the odd mistake but the rest of the time we'll have one of the best footballing CB's in the EPL.

No one has ever criticised Dawson's attitude. But I don't think he's a decent standard EPL CB, even in this weak market. How can a player who is painfully slow, has the turning circle of a fresian cow, is uncomfortable in possession of the ball, terrible at set pieces, poor reading the danger and decision maker be considered good EPL standard ?

I think if he was playing for any other club the thought of us signing him would have people shitting furniture. I think even managers get too obsessed with this "attitude" thing sometimes, especially in CB's, where being seen charging around like gallant twat is somehow perceived as more use than actually having a brain and reading danger without the need to get your shorts dirty. Carragher was another example of a player who's longevity of career with Liverpool was hard to fathom for similar reasons.

You want gifted players to have a good attitude too, shit ones with a good attitude is vastly over rated.

 

[ItsBoris]

Our conundrum at CB is hilarious.

Vertonghen - great CB, poor attitude
Kaboul - great CB once, very injury prone now and uncertain how much it's affected him.
Dawson - poor CB, good attitude
Chiriches - can be brilliant or horrifying, mixed bag, still a bit of an unknown quantity.

Therefore, not one player there that we can truly rely on at this point in time.

 

[Chris12]

They both have desirable qualities.. Dawson with his fight and love for the club, Verts with his natural ability and talent..

Anyone would take Verts over Dawson goign by ability but it has to be seen what Verts' character is like, his desire and fight.. Not saying I know what it's like, just need to see it in moments when teams back is against the wall (gay fucking cliche innit)

 

[Syn_13]

Our conundrum at CB is hilarious.

Vertonghen - great CB, poor attitude
Kaboul - great CB once, very injury prone now and uncertain how much it's affected him.
Dawson - poor CB, good attitude
Chiriches - can be brilliant or horrifying, mixed bag, still a bit of an unknown quantity.

Therefore, not one player there that we can truly rely on at this point in time.

Yet through the miracle of science we will create a monster to be feared by many a striker. Levy, get it done. I know Uncle Joe's got the wonga for this one.

Edit: This might actually leave us with 1 centre back at the club. But what a centre back!