Eric Dier

[dudu]

No, I am saying what i said

Sterling was damn good and damn dangerous before Pep got his hands on him but the raw materials were there. There was never a debate to be had of whether or not RS was even good enough. Surely you see the difference between these two scenarios. Pep has made him one of the first 5 names on any teamsheet in European football.

Pep has honed what was an exceptional talent/prospect but Raheem had already shown his X-factor beforehand lest you forget his time at Liverpool. But teaching someone to move into areas that magnify their threat and weaken their marks is a hell of a lot different than teaching someone to be aware in 360*.

And I've made this argument to you before, even at his best that you can remember it wouldn't be good enough. I can still see levels for Raheem to go up. There are levels to player's potential and Dier's ceiling is a hell of a lot lower than we should be looking for.

Just look at how much more you can imagine Ndombele giving us to what Dembele gave us. We know how vital Mousa was but he had no offensive ability nor much of a pass. No coach was going to coach those into him - his ceiling was lower. And I'd still take a healthy, younger Mousa back now because what he did have was unparalleled. There was something there. For Dier there is nothing there beyond the hope that he can get back to a serviceable player.

But take heart my friend as you have @Shadydan on your side of the argument. That always puts one on a good foundation to being right. His eye for a player and football mind are peerless. As such, Shady how's Chelsea doing without Hazard? And Hazard without Chelsea? Good stuff ol'boy. Keep up your consistency.

It's not really an argument. It's an opinion and if you read back through everything I have said I doubt you will find that I have stated with any certainty that I believe Dier is going to be a world class DM for us or even a useful one, just that I personally think he deserves a chance under a new manager.

 

[heelspurs]

It's not really an argument. It's an opinion and if you read back through everything I have said I doubt you will find that I have stated with any certainty that I believe Dier is going to be a world class DM for us or even a useful one, just that I personally think he deserves a chance under a new manager.

Perhaps you aren't familiar with the academic definition of the word 'argument'. It doesn't necessarily mean an angry exchange. Proffering your opinions and rationally supporting them, especially in direct opposition of another's opinion, is argument. So, it's absolutely 'argument'. It sure as hell ain't dialectic because you've only challenged my points and not ceded one of them even though your side of the 'argument' has gotten quite whittled away and your last few comments have been 'argument adjacent'. If you don't want 'low argument' then at the very least good faith is necessary and that means admitting someone's got a point when they do. Not moving the goalposts on to some other area you think you can sink your teeth into.

And sure he deserves a 'chance'. I just don't feel it's worth the time but you do. I say fair enough let's see what happens. As others have pointed out he may just be our best option available right now so it would be foolish to argue against his inclusion atm. But going forward, subject to the manager's desires, I can't imagine it would be the plan. But who knows besides Jose.

See, now we've come to an agreement, give Dier a chance. But that doesn't mean I won't be critical of his play when he deserves it. I do hope he returns his 15-16 form and fight. Still would hope we brought in a better all around defensively minded MFer ahead of him but that would make him quite a useful squad option for rotation.

 

[Montalbano]

Perhaps you aren't familiar with the academic definition of the word 'argument'. It doesn't necessarily mean an angry exchange. Proffering your opinions and rationally supporting them, especially in direct opposition of another's opinion, is argument. So, it's absolutely 'argument'. It sure as hell ain't dialectic because you've only challenged my points and not ceded one of them even though your side of the 'argument' has gotten quite whittled away and your last few comments have been 'argument adjacent'. If you don't want 'low argument' then at the very least good faith is necessary and that means admitting someone's got a point when they do. Not moving the goalposts on to some other area you think you can sink your teeth into.

And sure he deserves a 'chance'. I just don't feel it's worth the time but you do. I say fair enough let's see what happens. As others have pointed out he may just be our best option available right now so it would be foolish to argue against his inclusion atm. But going forward, subject to the manager's desires, I can't imagine it would be the plan. But who knows besides Jose.

See, now we've come to an agreement, give Dier a chance. But that doesn't mean I won't be critical of his play when he deserves it. I do hope he returns his 15-16 form and fight. Still would hope we brought in a better all around defensively minded MFer ahead of him but that would make him quite a useful squad option for rotation.

Well I thought based off your previous posts Dier can't be coached (and Mourinho isn't here to improve him), was never good enough in 15/16, and never will be good enough for this team? At least we're all on the same page now that maybe with a run of games he could potentially recover his previous form and be an asset to Mou's side (at least until January) after you've been repeatedly attacking our understanding of football for daring to state this initially. I do appreciate you explaining the definition of an argument though, it's a difficult concept for most of us thick-headed posters to understand.

I'm all for hearing differing options, including your own, but you don't have to call everyone stupid for having one. The only person I've seen post in this thread with "misguided confidence in one's own opinion" is yourself.

 

[allatsea]

regardless of all the debating above, I think it's pretty clear that we need a second DM (and I doubt very much Mourinho will trust Skipp with that job). I think we'll be looking in January and I think we'll be looking for an improvement on Dier rather than a backup. It would be pretty miraculous if he were to suddenly rediscover the pace and agility he seems to have lost in the past 18 months but I'd like to be proved wrong because I like his character and personality.

I suspect you are right but if what Maureen said about the youth at the club has any meaning Skipp should be getting a chance at least to show what he can do.

 

[Real_madyidd]

It's not really an argument. It's an opinion and if you read back through everything I have said I doubt you will find that I have stated with any certainty that I believe Dier is going to be a world class DM for us or even a useful one, just that I personally think he deserves a chance under a new manager.

I think he is. I am 100% behind Dier.

 

[knowlespurs]

what he does do is give us a stronger defensive base which has been missing, he knows his role and he playing means more cover when the full backs go flying forward, think with Dier in the team we are a lot stronger defensively, even if it is not a sexy role, sissoko isnt as discplined

 

[nailsy]

It looks like it's going to be a big six months for him as he's out of contract in 18 months. If he develops well under Jose he could be a key man for us next season, or he could be looking for a new club in the summer.

 

[Wheeler Dealer]

 

[dudu]

Perhaps you aren't familiar with the academic definition of the word 'argument'. It doesn't necessarily mean an angry exchange. Proffering your opinions and rationally supporting them, especially in direct opposition of another's opinion, is argument. So, it's absolutely 'argument'. It sure as hell ain't dialectic because you've only challenged my points and not ceded one of them even though your side of the 'argument' has gotten quite whittled away and your last few comments have been 'argument adjacent'. If you don't want 'low argument' then at the very least good faith is necessary and that means admitting someone's got a point when they do. Not moving the goalposts on to some other area you think you can sink your teeth into.

And sure he deserves a 'chance'. I just don't feel it's worth the time but you do. I say fair enough let's see what happens. As others have pointed out he may just be our best option available right now so it would be foolish to argue against his inclusion atm. But going forward, subject to the manager's desires, I can't imagine it would be the plan. But who knows besides Jose.

See, now we've come to an agreement, give Dier a chance. But that doesn't mean I won't be critical of his play when he deserves it. I do hope he returns his 15-16 form and fight. Still would hope we brought in a better all around defensively minded MFer ahead of him but that would make him quite a useful squad option for rotation.

I will admit you have a point somewhere - no Eric Dier is not as gifted a footballer as Lionel Messi, and yes, Eric Dier was part of the Tottenham side that started declining under Poch. The problem with your 'argument' though is that you have largely resorted to using hyperbole and exaggerated claims to make a point about something that I just happen to disagree with you about.

I don't like going over point by exaggerated point because what happens when I do is that you come back at me to say 'well i didnt really mean that as it sounded, I was just saying it to make a grand point' and moving the goalposts yourself.

I think the bulk of people agree he should be given a chance. Not every player is the same, some flourish under different tutelage, some flourish when they reach a certain maturity and many many don't. I just don't see the point in not supporting and encouraging anyone in our side right now. Its a fresh start for a lot of players who have only had one voice and one method in their ear for the last 5 and a bit years.

 

[Windwarden]

Dier was a key player when we were defending well but just one of a collective when we weren’t. Mercurial.

Meh, dunno why I bit. Depresses the shit out of me seeing him on the teamsheet, and I think it’s like starting a man down, but if Mourinho’ s going to play him hope he improves and does well. I would also rather us play him, and Skipp have a better chance at breaking through ahead of him than if we got some other average DM we’d just end up needing to shift in a season or two anyway.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

what he does do is give us a stronger defensive base which has been missing, he knows his role and he playing means more cover when the full backs go flying forward, think with Dier in the team we are a lot stronger defensively, even if it is not a sexy role, sissoko isnt as discplined

I agree, from a defensive perspective Dier is preferable to Sissoko.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Dier was a key player when we were defending well but just one of a collective when we weren’t. Mercurial.

Meh, dunno why I bit. Depresses the shit out of me seeing him on the teamsheet, and I think it’s like starting a man down, but if Mourinho’ s going to play him hope he improves and does well. I would also rather us play him, and Skipp have a better chance at breaking through ahead of him than if we got some other average DM we’d just end up needing to shift in a season or two anyway.

Starting with a man down didn’t seem to work so badly v West Ham when he covered the second highest distance of any player, had the most touches, played the most passes and only lost possession twice, neither time in dangerous areas.

For someone so bad it’s like not having a player on the pitch, that’s a huge involvement in a match we won and by and large dominated.

Not saying he was a revelation, but clearly all evidence suggests that he did have a tangible, positive impact in at least that match.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

Depresses the shit out of me seeing him on the teamsheet, and I think it’s like starting a man down,

 

[wrd]

Dier needs to be given game time, I'm interested to see what happens, for all we know Jose may still value him as a CB in the long run. What I will say is that it's good news for England if Jose can make a Dier-Winks-Dele triangle work and then bring back the Kane/Dele partnership.

 

[Ossie85]

He can get fit and regain form, but he's still not good enough. We need a lot better than him.

 

[Windwarden]

Starting with a man down didn’t seem to work so badly v West Ham when he covered the second highest distance of any player, had the most touches, played the most passes and only lost possession twice, neither time in dangerous areas.

For someone so bad it’s like not having a player on the pitch, that’s a huge involvement in a match we won and by and large dominated.

Not saying he was a revelation, but clearly all evidence suggests that he did have a tangible, positive impact in at least that match.

He also contributed next to nothing in terms of tackles and interceptions, as a defensive midfielder, as always. The statistics you’re quoting aren’t meaningful imo, what did the running about actually consist of, what did it produce, the passing stats mainly reflect receiving the ball then handing it off to someone. Anyway, I’m not here to slag him off etc and have no interest in any arguments over a player I think is awful and many think is excellent or at least have some positive sentiment attached to him as he plays for us. That’s life, and I’m not going to attack anyone‘s opinion on him no matter what I think of it, just because it differs from my own.

IMO, what he did ok could be said of almost any player stuck in there to occupy a space and recycle possession. I think we need much much more than that. However, as I said, I very much hope he can elevate his game under Jose. I’d still much rather see Skipp though, and think he has much more quality and mobility In the position.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

He can get fit and regain form, but he's still not good enough. We need a lot better than him.

He also contributed next to nothing in terms of tackles and interceptions, as a defensive midfielder, as always. The statistics you’re quoting aren’t meaningful imo, what did the running about actually consist of, what did it produce, the passing stats mainly reflect receiving the ball then handing it off to someone. Anyway, I’m not here to slag him off etc and have no interest in any arguments over a player I think is awful and many think is excellent or at least have some positive sentiment attached to him as he plays for us. That’s life, and I’m not going to attack anyone‘s opinion on him no matter what I think of it, just because it differs from my own.

IMO, what he did ok could be said of almost any player stuck in there to occupy a space and recycle possession. I think we need much much more than that. However, as I said, I very much hope he can elevate his game under Jose. I’d still much rather see Skipp though, and think he has much more quality and mobility In the position.

Tactically, your assessments are wanting One of the things you need in that part of the pitch under the new system is positional awareness. This in starch contrast to Pochettino, who's system doesn't call for the same degree of positioning on the same part of the pitch. When it comes to positioning as a DM when counter pressing (referred to above as "what running about actually produces"), Dier can do that. Not every single CM/DM CAN occupy the right space at the right time. I will also add the superior arial command he showed as both an emphasis on his positioning and also a specific thing he brought very well to the last game.

 

[ClintEastwould]

I like Eric. But just look at the difference between him and Fabinho/Fernandinho and that’s really all you need to say regarding his quality and what we need to address so that we start properly challenging at the top again.

 

[Ossie85]

Tactically, your assessments are wanting One of the things you need in that part of the pitch under the new system is positional awareness. This in starch contrast to Pochettino, who's system doesn't call for the same degree of positioning on the same part of the pitch. When it comes to positioning as a DM when counter pressing (referred to above as "what running about actually produces"), Dier can do that. Not every single CM/DM CAN occupy the right space at the right time. I will also add the superior arial command he showed as both an emphasis on his positioning and also a specific thing he brought very well to the last game.

Dier's positioning is nothing out of the ordinary. That's not really a strength. He is good in the aerial duels, but that's not really a must for a DM imo. He is slow and has serious lapses of concentration where he just switches off. Sorry but that's not good enough for a top 4 DM. We need A LOT better than that

 

[spids]

Sorry but that's not good enough for a top 4 DM. We need A LOT better than that

And yet in Dier's 5 seasons with us we've finished 5th, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and in only one of those seasons where we were not a top 4 side -his first with us- he played RB and RCB. All the other seasons he was a DCM and we were a top 4 club in every one of them. And his only period of not starting regularly in DCM was from Xmas 2018 (we were 3rd at the time) until last week - where he missed games due to illness (appendicitis) - which coincided with our form falling off a cliff. But yeah, I'm sure you know what you are talking about when you say he's not good enough to be a DCM in a top 4 side. I am not saying we cannot upgrade this position, but the fact is he has been a top 4 DCM for the last 4 years.