Eric Dier

[Tottenhamboy85]

And yet in Dier's 5 seasons with us we've finished 5th, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and in only one of those seasons where we were not a top 4 side -his first with us- he played RB and RCB. All the other seasons he was a DCM and we were a top 4 club in every one of them. And his only period of not starting regularly in DCM was from Xmas 2018 (we were 3rd at the time) until last week - where he missed games due to illness (appendicitis) - which coincided with our form falling off a cliff. But yeah, I'm sure you know what you are talking about when you say he's not good enough to be a DCM in a top 4 side. I am not saying we cannot upgrade this position, but the fact is he has been a top 4 DCM for the last 4 years.

Actually the 3rd season when we came second he played as a RCB with Wanyama and Dembele in midfield

 

[Windwarden]

Tactically, your assessments are wanting One of the things you need in that part of the pitch under the new system is positional awareness. This in starch contrast to Pochettino, who's system doesn't call for the same degree of positioning on the same part of the pitch. When it comes to positioning as a DM when counter pressing (referred to above as "what running about actually produces"), Dier can do that. Not every single CM/DM CAN occupy the right space at the right time. I will also add the superior arial command he showed as both an emphasis on his positioning and also a specific thing he brought very well to the last game.

I don’t disagree with a lot of what you say except unlike you are doing imo I don’t use his few strengths in the areas you mentioned to disguise his major failings as a footballer and in particular defensively. He does occupy good spaces - ive said that consistently - but what you haven’t mentioned is that he is easily bypassed, he rarely makes tackles as he’s so immobile and you would expect a defensive midfielder with such good positioning to be making interceptions instead: he doesn’t. As I said before there was a time I thought maybe what you are saying is true so I did some research into rival teams defensive midfielders and they all absolutely destroy him in tackles and interceptions, these players at teams below and above us (previously), teams with much better possession than us. He simply contributes very little to any area of the game. There is no other player in football I know of to compare him to who mysteriously makes very very few tackles and interceptions but is heralded as a tactically excellent defensive midfielder solely through taking up good positions - I think occam’ s razor applies here when looking for the reason his contributions are as they are.

 

[Windwarden]

Dier's positioning is nothing out of the ordinary. That's not really a strength. He is good in the aerial duels, but that's not really a must for a DM imo. He is slow and has serious lapses of concentration where he just switches off. Sorry but that's not good enough for a top 4 DM. We need A LOT better than that

And it’s only brought up imo because there’s nothing tangible to praise.

If Dier played for any other premiership team he’d be getting all kinds of shit from all quarters on here, and disbelief that he gets in the national team. Look at how people talk about Rice here, who has been the most effective English defensive mid by a distance, and whose shortcomings are highly comparable. I can’t go through life with the cognitive dissonance required to despair at seeing Henderson toiling over nothing while ignoring it in our own.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

I don’t disagree with a lot of what you say except unlike you are doing imo I don’t use his few strengths in the areas you mentioned to disguise his major failings as a footballer and in particular defensively. He does occupy good spaces - ive said that consistently - but what you haven’t mentioned is that he is easily bypassed, he rarely makes tackles as he’s so immobile and you would expect a defensive midfielder with such good positioning to be making interceptions instead: he doesn’t. As I said before there was a time I thought maybe what you are saying is true so I did some research into rival teams defensive midfielders and they all absolutely destroy him in tackles and interceptions, these players at teams below and above us (previously), teams with much better possession than us. He simply contributes very little to any area of the game. There is no other player in football I know of to compare him to who mysteriously makes very very few tackles and interceptions but is heralded as a tactically excellent defensive midfielder solely through taking up good positions - I think occam’ s razor applies here when looking for the reason his contributions are as they are.

There are two obvious aspects of this:
Arial command is form of interception, what else is it than literally intercepting the ball. You just don't see it in those stats of yours because they are listed as "arial duels" not "interceptions".
If you are good at anticipative positioning, you will actually cause fewer tackles/ground interceptions because you are proactively closing down space to prevent the opponent from easy or vital passes. Many tackles means that you are a reactive player who responds after a pass is made. But to the contrary, you could have proactively cut out that pass as an option, eliminating the need to chase a bloke down with a tackle. Another great example of the same but further up the pitch is Eriksen, who also "doesn't tackle"/"doesn't press".

 

[carmeldevil]

There are two obvious aspects of this:
Arial command is form of interception, what else is it than literally intercepting the ball. You just don't see it in those stats of yours because they are listed as "arial duels" not "interceptions".
If you are good at anticipative positioning, you will actually cause fewer tackles/ground interceptions because you are proactively closing down space to prevent the opponent from easy or vital passes. Many tackles means that you are a reactive player who responds after a pass is made. But to the contrary, you could have proactively cut out that pass as an option, eliminating the need to chase a bloke down with a tackle. Another great example of the same but further up the pitch is Eriksen, who also "doesn't tackle"/"doesn't press".

Helvetica disagrees

 

[dudu]

There are two obvious aspects of this:
Arial command is form of interception, what else is it than literally intercepting the ball. You just don't see it in those stats of yours because they are listed as "arial duels" not "interceptions".
If you are good at anticipative positioning, you will actually cause fewer tackles/ground interceptions because you are proactively closing down space to prevent the opponent from easy or vital passes. Many tackles means that you are a reactive player who responds after a pass is made. But to the contrary, you could have proactively cut out that pass as an option, eliminating the need to chase a bloke down with a tackle. Another great example of the same but further up the pitch is Eriksen, who also "doesn't tackle"/"doesn't press".

Not only that but by positioning correctly in the center of the pitch you are forcing other teams out wide to try to find a way around you.

You only have to look to the weekend to see how many tackles were made on the wings vs were made in the center of the pitch, I think 23 of our 31 tackles were attempted by players in wide positions.

 

[Ossie85]

And yet in Dier's 5 seasons with us we've finished 5th, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and in only one of those seasons where we were not a top 4 side -his first with us- he played RB and RCB. All the other seasons he was a DCM and we were a top 4 club in every one of them. And his only period of not starting regularly in DCM was from Xmas 2018 (we were 3rd at the time) until last week - where he missed games due to illness (appendicitis) - which coincided with our form falling off a cliff. But yeah, I'm sure you know what you are talking about when you say he's not good enough to be a DCM in a top 4 side. I am not saying we cannot upgrade this position, but the fact is he has been a top 4 DCM for the last 4 years.

Fair enough. I can argue that being part of a top 4 team doesn't make you good enough. DM has always been a weak link in our side, that was temporarily patched when we signed Wanyama. But he couldn't mantain that level. Dier was leaner and more mobile before. Now he's a lot heavier, and not all of the gain weight is due to lack of fitness. He's has good qualities for a CB, but not for a DM.
It's imperative we sign a better DM imo

 

[BringBack_leGin]

He also contributed next to nothing in terms of tackles and interceptions, as a defensive midfielder, as always. The statistics you’re quoting aren’t meaningful imo, what did the running about actually consist of, what did it produce, the passing stats mainly reflect receiving the ball then handing it off to someone. Anyway, I’m not here to slag him off etc and have no interest in any arguments over a player I think is awful and many think is excellent or at least have some positive sentiment attached to him as he plays for us. That’s life, and I’m not going to attack anyone‘s opinion on him no matter what I think of it, just because it differs from my own.

IMO, what he did ok could be said of almost any player stuck in there to occupy a space and recycle possession. I think we need much much more than that. However, as I said, I very much hope he can elevate his game under Jose. I’d still much rather see Skipp though, and think he has much more quality and mobility In the position.

I mean, not one of the players outside of the front four contributed much by way of tackles because we were winning the ball high up, but just to humour you (I don’t know why, I really don’t need to) only Aurier made more tackles of our defence and midfield.

Good for you that you think he’s awful, literally no evidence since he joined supports this (notable, the four years of having a good or great defence with him in the side v 18 months of having an awful defence with him out of the side) but I’ll never deny someone’s right to an opinion, merely refute outright lies like ‘it’s like playing with ten men’ by providing tangible evidence which shows that actually, he was highly involved.

 

[The Doc]

Fair enough. I can argue that being part of a top 4 team doesn't make you good enough. DM has always been a weak link in our side, that was temporarily patched when we signed Wanyama. But he couldn't mantain that level. Dier was leaner and more mobile before. Now he's a lot heavier, and not all of the gain weight is due to lack of fitness. He's has good qualities for a CB, but not for a DM.
It's imperative we sign a better DM imo

Yep. I'll go with this. Like him and imagine he's a good character, but not in midfield. Feet and mind aren't quick enough imo, even when fully fit.

 

[spids]

Fair enough. I can argue that being part of a top 4 team doesn't make you good enough. DM has always been a weak link in our side, that was temporarily patched when we signed Wanyama. But he couldn't mantain that level. Dier was leaner and more mobile before. Now he's a lot heavier, and not all of the gain weight is due to lack of fitness. He's has good qualities for a CB, but not for a DM.
It's imperative we sign a better DM imo

As I said, we can definitely upgrade on this position, so not disagreeing with you. Just would like to see him get 5 or 6 consecutive games under Mourinho before I judge him fully. He was a revelation in DCM in the 2015/16 season, and ha proven he deliver in that position. He has effectively not really played for the best part of a year, and a year in which he had serious health issues that can really impact fitness.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

Not to shabby pace I think

 

[Windwarden]

And it’s only brought up imo because there’s nothing tangible to praise.

I mean, not one of the players outside of the front four contributed much by way of tackles because we were winning the ball high up, but just to humour you (I don’t know why, I really don’t need to) only Aurier made more tackles of our defence and midfield.

Good for you that you think he’s awful, literally no evidence since he joined supports this (notable, the four years of having a good or great defence with him in the side v 18 months of having an awful defence with him out of the side) but I’ll never deny someone’s right to an opinion, merely refute outright lies like ‘it’s like playing with ten men’ by providing tangible evidence which shows that actually, he was highly involved.

Mm. I’m not sure what’s wrong with you, aside from being a thoroughgoing milquetoast but I’ve noticed that you plunge into some delerious tantrum every time someone criticises one of our players, this time by calling me a liar for having an opinion that causes your ovaries to oscillate at an untenable frequency.

He’s meant to be our defensive midfielder and like defensive midfielders for other teams, make tackles and interceptions. He doesn’t. And it’s not just this game it’s every game, and it’s over every season. He’s nowhere near other good defensive mids in terms of his contribution.

I was perfectly decent and polite and didn’t say you are a liar for having your own subjective take on things- which is, by the way, impossible - no matter how imbecilic and contrary to the facts it is. You haven’t demonstrated any tangible evidence that has any relevance, yet ignored the tangible evidence I provided ie. His astonishing lack of tackles and interceptions as a defensive midfielder relative to other, good, players in his positions.

It’s more than a little pathetic that you haven’t developed the ability to disagree civilly, as I attempted to. I’m very sorry you can’t take any criticism of spurs players without going all blubbery, passive aggressive and weird. Lol

 

[dontcallme]

Mm. I’m not sure what’s wrong with you, aside from being a thoroughgoing milquetoast but I’ve noticed that you plunge into some delerious tantrum every time someone criticises one of our players, this time by calling me a liar for having an opinion that causes your ovaries to oscillate at an untenable frequency.

I was perfectly decent and polite and didn’t say you are a liar for having your own subjective take on things- which is, by the way, impossible - no matter how imbecilic and contrary to the facts it is. You haven’t demonstrated any tangible evidence that has any relevance, yet ignored the tangible evidence I provided ie. His astonishing lack of tackles and interceptions as a defensive midfielder relative to other, good, players in his positions.

It’s more than a little pathetic that you haven’t developed the ability to disagree civilly, as I attempted to. I’m very sorry you can’t take any criticism of spurs players without going all blubbery, passive aggressive and weird. Lol

Other than that you and BBLG are best of friends?

 

[Windwarden]

Other than that you and BBLG are best of friends?

Can’t get enough of him. It’s like university never ended.

 

[Windwarden]

There are two obvious aspects of this:
Arial command is form of interception, what else is it than literally intercepting the ball. You just don't see it in those stats of yours because they are listed as "arial duels" not "interceptions".
If you are good at anticipative positioning, you will actually cause fewer tackles/ground interceptions because you are proactively closing down space to prevent the opponent from easy or vital passes. Many tackles means that you are a reactive player who responds after a pass is made. But to the contrary, you could have proactively cut out that pass as an option, eliminating the need to chase a bloke down with a tackle. Another great example of the same but further up the pitch is Eriksen, who also "doesn't tackle"/"doesn't press".

‘That is true, I just don’t think it makes up for his inability to tackle or make interceptions when the ball’s on the ground, which is how the best teams play. Also you’re portraying him as a cerebral defensive mid who anticipates rather than making tackles, which I get but it doesn’t bear out because he barely ever makes interceptions either. And aside from that his counterparts in other teams toward the top end of the premier league have always made significantly more tackles and interceptions than him: it’s not like kante Etc are forced into making tackles because they’re poor at reading the game.

I also don’t have stats to hand but remember him being really poor for his size in the air when he’s a centre back, he’s not aggressive enough and switches off a lot Positionally. I think he wins more aerial duels in midfield due to the size of the opposition there. Again, I could be wrong but I’ve always felt we are very vulnerable when he’s been playing centre back. I think he gets a bit of a free ride as a defensive mid in terms of his tendency to switch off because all he has to do is apply some basic centre back positional sense and he looks much more solid than other mids positionally. The holes in that part of his game aren’t exposed as dramatically as they have been when he’s played as a centre back for us.

i really don’t have it in for him, I just don’t rate him at all for the reasons I’ve given and so fundamentally disagree with a lot of the justification s for his perceived failings. It seems like every possibility is considered except the simplest one. And whatever he might be ok at, it doesn’t explain the large shortfall between him and other defensive midfielders in terms of their tackles/interceptions. If it doesn’t matter, how come they’re making them?

I should add that I was probably most excited by Tottenham when Dele and Dier came through, Dele and Kane were combining for goals and we felt like we had a unique dynamic. I’d love that back and I’d genuinely love him to improve, and my opinion of him has nothing to do with the west ham game.

 

[Shadydan]

Not good for Dier, hooked after 28 mins

 

[Yiddo100]

Not good for Dier, hooked after 28 mins

Winks can count himself lucky

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Mm. I’m not sure what’s wrong with you, aside from being a thoroughgoing milquetoast but I’ve noticed that you plunge into some delerious tantrum every time someone criticises one of our players, this time by calling me a liar for having an opinion that causes your ovaries to oscillate at an untenable frequency.

He’s meant to be our defensive midfielder and like defensive midfielders for other teams, make tackles and interceptions. He doesn’t. And it’s not just this game it’s every game, and it’s over every season. He’s nowhere near other good defensive mids in terms of his contribution.

I was perfectly decent and polite and didn’t say you are a liar for having your own subjective take on things- which is, by the way, impossible - no matter how imbecilic and contrary to the facts it is. You haven’t demonstrated any tangible evidence that has any relevance, yet ignored the tangible evidence I provided ie. His astonishing lack of tackles and interceptions as a defensive midfielder relative to other, good, players in his positions.

It’s more than a little pathetic that you haven’t developed the ability to disagree civilly, as I attempted to. I’m very sorry you can’t take any criticism of spurs players without going all blubbery, passive aggressive and weird. Lol

I didn’t say you’re a liar, I said you were telling lies. There’s a difference. I think I did disagree civilly, I explicitly said that you are more than entitled to your opinion, but I called out your completely false statement regarding ‘it being like playing with ten men’ because it was, we, complete false. The only person who has thrown a tantrum or been abusive on a personal level here is you.

I’m going to leave it at that, until this point I felt it was a healthy enough disagreement and you began using words like imbecile, pathetic and also said I have ovaries as a way of belittling (not sure if that’s more insulting to me or women, but it’s hugely sexually discriminative either way). Ergo, I shan’t indulge in your tirade any longer.

The irony of this is that I had come on just now to say ‘fair play Windy, tonight Dier was atrocious and rightly hooked’ but I feel that ship has sailed.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

The both of them were truly dreadful, but I’m not sure who wasn’t.

 

[spids]

So, I stick up for Dier and he has a mare! ? At least Jose knows he has a big job on his hands now!