Ex-Manager watch: Antonio Conte

[fishhhandaricecake]

The same players will be swanning along enjoying their salaries and knowing they can get rid of the next manager if they want to. What a toxic platform. Conte should have been the line in the sand.

I'm not against Conte going but at the same time I hate what it represents.

Has anyone considered that if Levy and the board ran the club with better planning and strategy and with a clear direction on the football side as well as hiring managers who were more likeable and played more enjoyable football that perhaps the players spirits and performances would then improve? just a thought,.

The squad has changed loads I don't think this group are toxic at all, far from it, some of them might lack a little bit of grit and determination to get over the line but in no way shape or form does this group of players seem toxic to me at all.

It is no coincidence that good players have recently come to Spurs and don't look as good a la Richarlison, Bissouma etc because they're not being given the tactical platform or confidence to properly express themselves and thrive in a group and an environment where everyone is pulling in the same direction.

It is very demotivating 'working for' an organisation that has no direction, has a scattergun approach to everything, things are constantly changing and management is dull and negative. This is why the Managers personality for our club is so so key because if they are positive and help drive things forwards it takes away from some of the negativity and toxicness that is caused by the board and the environment which they've created.

 

[nav007_2000]

Apologies if this has been posted before

 

[TPdYID]

But you're not giving any context to these situations and you're wrong on Saka. He'd played 7 premier league minutes before Arteta came in. He played at RWB because that was where Arteta played him in his first season. Yes he's developed and Arteta deserves credit for that but he was a young player with immense potential who would've likely developed whoever the manager was, same with Martinelli.

You use Xhaka as an example because he was booed off, but Royal was absolutely vilified and came back to put in some good performances, yes it's a small sample size but given that Conte was here for only 16 months it's what we have to work with.

Gabriel looked flaky and inconsistent, he still does. The difference is he's partnered with Saliba who looks like he could become the best PL CB since VVD. If he was partnered by Romero and Davies I don't think he'd look as secure (he's still their biggest weakness imo).

The truth is we were in an absolute mess when Nuno left, Conte came in, improved the performances of all players last year to the point where we were able to get 4th.

This year it hasn't been as good performance wise but some of the players are playing better than they were when Nuno was in charge and it's laughable to suggest otherwise. Hoj, Skipp, Royal, Kane have all improved since Nuno, whereas Son had his best ever season when Conte was in charge. Players form can't only be attributed to the manager.

Saka has become the best winger in the world. Martinelli was always flashing hot & cold, now he's a consistent goal threat. Gabriel is part of one of the best defensive records in the EPL and it's largely to do with the manager. Creating an environment and team which helps the sum become greater then it's parts.

Please tell me you can see the difference in approaches. A coach like Arteta who has Arsenal playing progressive, front foot, attacking football and Conte who had us camped back in our own box. Pragmatism at it's finest.

 

[Styopa]

Isn't that what we are aspiring to be though?

But we don't act like it.

Yeah, I guess we are. But we have never been in the same ballpark as the Man U's, Real Madrid or Juve's of the world in our entire history. And in the last twenty years, we have not been in the same ballpark as the Chelseas of the world for obvious reasons.

The post I was replying to directly compared the number of trophies the club has won under ENIC and the number of previous Spurs managers have won in the same period. And I think while that comparison is very eye-catching, it doesn't mean much, given the clubs some of those previous coaches have managed.

Here's another comparison. Chelsea, one of the most successful clubs in modern history, have won 21 trophies in the last twenty years. That's impressive, right? But even more impressive is that during that same period, managers who Chelsea have employed have won 81 trophies (or 60, not including the trophies they won at Chelsea).

 

[aliyid]

It’s crazy some of the mental gymnastics everybody has to go through in order to justify their position.

Personal view but the worst thing the board have done since the Poch era is try to placate the fans with a trophy by getting ‘Instant Winners’ Jose & Conte... This has moved us from one of the most exciting attack minded teams into a borefest that nobody wants to watch.

That style only works when you have the best players and when we play in a league with financial powerhouses like Utd, City, Chelsea, etc… we will never have the best players so we need a coach who can make them more than the sum of their parts.

 

[TheChosenOne]

Conceding more shots than Southampton. No wonder we conceded so many goals yet he refused to change it. Was he purposefully sabotaging us?


Yet part of his undoing was the stubbornness that saw him remain loyal to a 3-4-3 setup that meant a midfield that wasn't built to play in such a system was, routinely, overrun. This, in turn, invited pressure upon a Spurs defence that has shown no signs in the past that they can deal with the sustained pressure to repel attack after attack. Unsurprisingly, the backline routinely crumbled as Conte's reactive and at times pragmatic approach struggled to reap the benefits.
Under Conte this season, Spurs were conceding 13.6 shots per game, the same number as Leeds and more than relegation threatened trio Crystal Palace (13.3), Southampton (12.6) and West Ham (12). It was an unsustainable style of play and with Hugo Lloris on the decline, the Frenchman was unable to bail the club out as often as he once did. As one might expect, it meant Spurs frequently shipped goals, 40 to be exact in the Premier League this season, the same number as their upcoming opponents, Everton, and the most of all sides inside the top 10.

It's not so much "conceding more shots" but being actively assisting oppenents with stray passes, inept defending and goalkeeper faults/distribution causing endless losses and dropped points.

 

[Stoof]

It’s crazy some of the mental gymnastics everybody has to go through in order to justify their position.

Personal view but the worst thing the board have done since the Poch era is try to placate the fans with a trophy by getting ‘Instant Winners’ Jose & Conte... This has moved us from one of the most exciting attack minded teams into a borefest that nobody wants to watch.

That style only works when you have the best players and when we play in a league with financial powerhouses like Utd, City, Chelsea, etc… we will never have the best players so we need a coach who can make them more than the sum of their parts.

It is funny that they're considered such "great managers" though. I'm pretty sure the project managers would love a load of cash to buy who they want - surely it fasts forwards what they want to do too?

"Oh no, I don't need that extra £200m for players thanks, I'm going to spend 18 months teaching Sessegnon to not be terrified of opposition players in the opposing half".

 

[Styopa]

Has anyone considered that if Levy and the board ran the club with better planning and strategy and with a clear direction on the football side as well as hiring managers who were more likeable and played more enjoyable football that perhaps the players spirits and performances would then improve? just a thought,.

The squad has changed loads I don't think this group are toxic at all, far from it, some of them might lack a little bit of grit and determination to get over the line but in no way shape or form does this group of players seem toxic to me at all.

It is no coincidence that good players have recently come to Spurs and don't look as good a la Richarlison, Bissouma etc because they're not being given the tactical platform or confidence to properly express themselves and thrive in a group and an environment where everyone is pulling in the same direction.

It is very demotivating 'working for' an organisation that has no direction, has a scattergun approach to everything, things are constantly changing and management is dull and negative. This is why the Managers personality for our club is so so key because if they are positive and help drive things forwards it takes away from some of the negativity and toxicness that is caused by the board and the environment which they've created.

It's funny how the whole the players are toxic narrative sprung up after we employed two of the most notoriously combustible managers in world football. Managers who have a track record of falling out with players, clubs, owners, officials, staff etc.

 

[Joshua shepherd]

Saka has become the best winger in the world. Martinelli was always flashing hot & cold, now he's a consistent goal threat. Gabriel is part of one of the best defensive records in the EPL and it's largely to do with the manager. Creating an environment and team which helps the sum become greater then it's parts.

Please tell me you can see the difference in approaches. A coach like Arteta who has Arsenal playing progressive, front foot, attacking football and Conte who had us camped back in our own box. Pragmatism at it's finest.

I don't disagree but like I said, you're ignoring context and lacking any appreciation of what Conte achieved whilst here.

He clearly improved players in season 1 because we went from struggling to get a shot on target to scoring for fun at the back end of last season.

This year it didn't quite work out in the same way, despite having our best ever start to a premier league campaign. There's so many extenuating circumstances that could have had an impact but it's not really important, what you're failing to acknowledge is that we were better this year than we were when Nuno was here.

If where we are isn't good enough then that's okay, we can move on from Conte, but if you think someone else can come in and get more out of some of our players, you're in for a shock, or you'll just blame the manager again and claim someone else could do it better.

Arteta has done a fantastic job, there's no denying that of course. Arsenal have a better path to the first team, and better players in the youth teams, I'm not sure he'd have had the same impact on Tanganga as he did on Saka though.

You have to ask if he was Spurs manager would he have even lasted long enough to see the job through? Some of their football in the first 18 months was dreadful and the results were worse.

 

[aliyid]

It is funny that they're considered such "great managers" though. I'm pretty sure the project managers would love a load of cash to buy who they want - surely it fasts forwards what they want to do too?

"Oh no, I don't need that extra £200m for players thanks, I'm going to spend 18 months teaching Sessegnon to not be terrified of opposition players in the opposing half".

Like people saying Ten Hag has done such an amazing job at Utd while only spending €230M.... on three players

 

[-Afri-Coy-]

Conceding more shots than Southampton. No wonder we conceded so many goals yet he refused to change it. Was he purposefully sabotaging us?


Yet part of his undoing was the stubbornness that saw him remain loyal to a 3-4-3 setup that meant a midfield that wasn't built to play in such a system was, routinely, overrun. This, in turn, invited pressure upon a Spurs defence that has shown no signs in the past that they can deal with the sustained pressure to repel attack after attack. Unsurprisingly, the backline routinely crumbled as Conte's reactive and at times pragmatic approach struggled to reap the benefits.
Under Conte this season, Spurs were conceding 13.6 shots per game, the same number as Leeds and more than relegation threatened trio Crystal Palace (13.3), Southampton (12.6) and West Ham (12). It was an unsustainable style of play and with Hugo Lloris on the decline, the Frenchman was unable to bail the club out as often as he once did. As one might expect, it meant Spurs frequently shipped goals, 40 to be exact in the Premier League this season, the same number as their upcoming opponents, Everton, and the most of all sides inside the top 10.

I genuinely doubt he was purposefully sabotaging us, but he was very inflexible in his approach.

Also, half way through the season when we were sitting comfortably in 3rd, we had scored the 3rd highest goals in the league BUT had conceded the 3rd most too. Basically relegation defence with title challenging attack.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

It's funny how the whole the players are toxic narrative sprung up after we employed two of the most notoriously combustible managers in world football. Managers who have a track record of falling out with players, clubs, owners, officials, staff etc.

1,000,000% this.

 

[mil1lion]

Conte is a great manager, Jose is a great manager. They're just not great coaches or man managers. They never really suited a club like us. Conte is good at setting up a system and instructing players what to do. He has shown however that he can't teach them how to do it. That's the key difference. If it was ever to work we would have needed a squad of experienced players who can follow exactly what he wants. Instead we sign players with potential who need a coach to develop their game. It's another failing bringing in a manager that doesn't fit the squad or building a squad to fit the manager.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

Stelini and Mason combo just reeks of more lack of planning, nothing new there then.

Perhaps lack of planning but I can actually see a lot of sense in this in terms of continuity for the players between now and end of the season but with a more positive vibe around the place and the approach. It would be too much of an ask for Mason to do it all himself for the final 10 games and it is difficult to get managers to switch to a new club 2/3 of the way through the season.

If Poch and L.Enrique (and Tuchel is now gone) aren't our top2 choices both being out of a job and our top choices are for example Nagglesman, Almorim etc then makes sense to work on getting them agreed for summer, if one of the first 2 names are our top choice then we could/could've got them in before end of the season with better planning but the Conte rant was a bit out of the blue so for me if we get a good manager signed up to start in summer so they can watch games and plan for pre-season etc then I have no problem with that as a reactionary plan.

If we hire another bad fit manager in summer and/or the search is a mess again and takes ages and means the new manager doesn't have time to properly plan pre-season etc then yes that will be the usual lack of planning and decisiveness on the football direction.

 

[newbie]

Saka has become the best winger in the world. Martinelli was always flashing hot & cold, now he's a consistent goal threat. Gabriel is part of one of the best defensive records in the EPL and it's largely to do with the manager. Creating an environment and team which helps the sum become greater then it's parts.

Please tell me you can see the difference in approaches. A coach like Arteta who has Arsenal playing progressive, front foot, attacking football and Conte who had us camped back in our own box. Pragmatism at it's finest.

There might be a lad at Madrid who might dispute Saka is the best in the world

 

[mil1lion]

There might be a lad at Madrid who might dispute Saka is the best in the world

Saka is not even world class yet. Still holes in his game but has potential to be one of the best.

 

[Metalhead]

So Levy gets all the flak when things don't go so well and none of the credit when they do?

I certainly think that off the pitch, commercially speaking, the credit towards him is universal.

 

[Metalhead]

It’s crazy some of the mental gymnastics everybody has to go through in order to justify their position.

Personal view but the worst thing the board have done since the Poch era is try to placate the fans with a trophy by getting ‘Instant Winners’ Jose & Conte... This has moved us from one of the most exciting attack minded teams into a borefest that nobody wants to watch.

That style only works when you have the best players and when we play in a league with financial powerhouses like Utd, City, Chelsea, etc… we will never have the best players so we need a coach who can make them more than the sum of their parts.

Was it the board placating the fans though? I find it hard to believe that Levy would have made the same move twice just to placate the fans. Part of the issue is that he has looked at availability from a name point of view rather than a philosophy point of view. I appreciate that it's become a tedious reference point but what part of the 'DNA of the club' was he referring to before the farce of a recruitment process last time?

 

[eddiebailey]

If he's fit (limped off at the weekend) I'd like Emerson at left wing back.

Bugger.

 

[Japhet]

Conceding more shots than Southampton. No wonder we conceded so many goals yet he refused to change it. Was he purposefully sabotaging us?


Yet part of his undoing was the stubbornness that saw him remain loyal to a 3-4-3 setup that meant a midfield that wasn't built to play in such a system was, routinely, overrun. This, in turn, invited pressure upon a Spurs defence that has shown no signs in the past that they can deal with the sustained pressure to repel attack after attack. Unsurprisingly, the backline routinely crumbled as Conte's reactive and at times pragmatic approach struggled to reap the benefits.
Under Conte this season, Spurs were conceding 13.6 shots per game, the same number as Leeds and more than relegation threatened trio Crystal Palace (13.3), Southampton (12.6) and West Ham (12). It was an unsustainable style of play and with Hugo Lloris on the decline, the Frenchman was unable to bail the club out as often as he once did. As one might expect, it meant Spurs frequently shipped goals, 40 to be exact in the Premier League this season, the same number as their upcoming opponents, Everton, and the most of all sides inside the top 10.

Conte's approach was the absolute opposite of pragmatic. It was based around 1 single approach/setup and it would have been the same 11 just about every game if not for injuries and suspensions. It never changed in spite of all the evidence that it was no good, which the shots against stats bear out.