Henry Percy ( Harry Hotspur )

[chinaman]

Cool.....but can he cross.

Certainly our Harry can strike.

 

[Ravenyonaz]

My old English Lit teacher insisted that Hotspur, in this sense, came from the Yiddish chutzpah, and that it was probably a snide insult to Henry Percy from some quarters, as it meant recklessness in those days.

I recall reading in a Oxford Dictionary, ages ago, that Hotspur means a good man!

 

[ShelfWatcher]

Google is pretty shallow these days. If it's not a link that a million 12-year olds have shared recently, then it probably won't show, and the best reference sites now hide behind subscription walls. But chutzpah (pronounced hutspur) predates hotspur and means the same thing, and comes from an age where most people never saw the written word, let alone could read it, so I'd be amazed if there wasn't a connection.

Take your points about Google, but still disagree about the origins of Hotspur as it applies to us
To me I would need to see a lot of proof to dissuade me away from the obvious explanation of digging your spurs into a horse in battle and the extended metaphors
from that
Also apparently Harry Hotspur enjoyed cock fighting, oo er missus, ??, so that adds another layer to the spurs connections

 

[ComfortablyNumb]

I recall reading in a Oxford Dictionary, ages ago, that Hotspur means a good man!

That's the point, though, a play on words in Henry Percy's case, from people who didn't like him, or were politically positioned against him. Chutzpah itself now has a more positive meaning, too.

 

[carmeldevil]

I was up in Northumberland (Alnwick) a few weeks ago, there’s a statue of him there.

View attachment 102617

MOVE IT TO THE STADIUM!

 

[chinaman]

The first thing that attracted me back in 1958 when I started reading about English football in the daily vernaculars in Hong Kong was the name Hotspur, which stood out in the sea of Cities and Uniteds. Then came the club's exploits in the 59-60 campaign and of course our Jimmy sealed my love for the club eversince.

 

[WorcesterTHFC]

Had a search on Google can't find any historical links to Henry Percy and chutzpah
I really don't believe Hotspur came from chutzpah. The obvious explanations about digging your spurs into your horse in the heat of battle, and extended metaphors relating to hot headed heroes are surely the correct ones

Apparently the word 'chutzpah' dates from the 1890s, when the club was already several years old, and when large numbers of Jews from eastern and central Europe were migrating to the USA. The chances that anyone in Harry Hotspur's or even William Shakespeare's time heard 'chutzpah' are zero.

 

[ShelfWatcher]

Apparently the word 'chutzpah' dates from the 1890s, when the club was already several years old, and when large numbers of Jews from eastern and central Europe were migrating to the USA. The chances that anyone in Harry Hotspur's or even William Shakespeare's time heard 'chutzpah' are zero.

Exactly, to me the obvious explanations are far more preferable
I'd love to know the historical sources the English teacher used to come up with his explanation. But as I say I can't find any. Whereas there's a multitude of sources to confirm the obvious theory Doesn't make it right in itself, but a damned hot favourite in my book ?

 

[bigfrooj]

Apparently the word 'chutzpah' dates from the 1890s, when the club was already several years old, and when large numbers of Jews from eastern and central Europe were migrating to the USA. The chances that anyone in Harry Hotspur's or even William Shakespeare's time heard 'chutzpah' are zero.

I agree. Tottenham was an affluent white middle class area at the time and any London Yiddish speakers would have lived in East London. My own ancestors had arrived in Spitalfields by the time of the 1841 census and were still in and around there by the 1891 census, and I think that was pretty much the Jewish experience.

it’s the first time I’ve heard the chutzpah theory, I’ve always been sure of the Harry Hotspur connections.

 

[SpursTillIDie1882]

Here are 2 excellent links, one is the official Percy family history, ran by Charles Percy a descendant of the family

In precis the genesis of the name or nickname 'Hotspur' is from his fearless, impetuous and triumphant battles against the Scots in the mid 1300's.

Hotspur | Percy Family History

and

Henry Percy, or 'Harry Hotspur'

Henry Percy, later made famous as 'Harry Hotspur' was born 20 May 1364 at Alnwick Castle in Northumberland. son of Henry Percy, and Margaret Neville

www.englishmonarchs.co.uk

 

[Delboy75]

The Chutzpah theory is interesting and does seem plausible if it was a common slang word that basically means get up and go. It was a group of young lads that formed Spurs. Would they have been more likely to pick some historical connection or a common slang word. But then the Hotspur connection to Henry Percy would be to much of a coincidence.

 

[ShelfWatcher]

The Chutzpah theory is interesting and does seem plausible if it was a common slang word that basically means get up and go. It was a group of young lads that formed Spurs. Would they have been more likely to pick some historical connection or a common slang word. But then the Hotspur connection to Henry Percy would be to much of a coincidence.

All the documentation and evidence we have confirms it was Harry Hotspur the boys were thinking about.
There is not one shred of evidence that it relates to Chutzpah

 

[DenverSpur]

Thanks see below:

Here's the link to the article

Disagree with this article. I was always told the following:
The Northumberland Family were charged with the security of the border with Scotland. The Scots nicknamed Sir Henry Percy “Hotspur” because wherever they tried to cross the border to raid he was there to stop them so they said he must have hot spurs from rushing his horse from one spot on the border to another.
Harry Hotspur may have been fond of Cock fighting but the reason we have the Cockerel logo is because cockerels have “spurs” on their lower legs that they use to fight other cockerels. In cock fighting they attach steel Spurs alongside the natural Spurs to make the contests more definitive(and bloody) - win or die. Used to watch cockerels fighting when I lived in S. America. Man they breed some psychopathic birds!!

 

[Duke of Northumberland]

I moved to the North East a few years back and always find the links with the club fascinating- having lived on Northumberland Park I now live near to Northumberland National Park. I think I’d rather see a Bobby Buckle statue than HH at the Lane, since he made the link and named and created the club.

 

[DenverSpur]

Here are 2 excellent link, one is the official Percy family history, ran by Charles Percy a descendant of the family

In precis the genesis of the name or nickname 'Hotspur' is from his fearless, impetuous and triumphant battles against the Scots in the mid 1300's.

Hotspur | Percy Family History

and

Henry Percy, or 'Harry Hotspur'

Henry Percy, later made famous as 'Harry Hotspur' was born 20 May 1364 at Alnwick Castle in Northumberland. son of Henry Percy, and Margaret Neville

www.englishmonarchs.co.uk

Interesting articles.

 

[ShelfWatcher]

I moved to the North East a few years back and always find the links with the club fascinating- having lived on Northumberland Park I now live near to Northumberland National Park. I think I’d rather see a Bobby Buckle statue than HH at the Lane, since he made the link and named and created the club.

That's quite a journey ? Certainly if the club was ever to start putting up statues Bobby Buckle would be a prime contender. So important to the very existence of this club. But for various reasons I don't think the club are too keen on statues

 

[JimmyG2]

Great thread.

 

[Tiffers]

Thanks see below:

Here's the link to the article

brilliant info especially the graphic

 

[Sloop]

A foreign friend asked me yesterday where “ Hotspur “ came from. I had a vague idea, but the answer I gave was a bit muddled and I actually felt a bit embarrassed I wasn’t really clear on it. So did a bit more reading up last night. As far as I’m aware there’s no reference to Henry Percy anywhere in the new stadium. Obviously there’s Percy house which I presume is named after him. Considering we literally take our name from him, shouldn’t there be some reference actually in The stadium. I know some of these characters from the past that have had statues have turned out not to be the most honourable of people. But Henry seemed like a straightforward warrior. The other very freaky thing is obviously his namesake Harry is now our talisman and the resemblance is uncanny.

That picture looks to me like a relatively recent creation. The likeness made me suspect that no one knows for sure what he actually looked like and that a Spurs fan was involved in the creation of the image. The picture also appears on the website of Hotspur Gin, who are based in Alnwick and also host the Alnwick Official Spurs Supporters Club - see https://www.hotspurgin.com/pages/harry-hotspur-history . They may well know more about it!

There is a statue of Harry Hotspur in the town of Alnwick. According to a blog post about it, the face was modelled on George Percy, Earl Percy, the son and heir to the current Duke of Northumberland. Apparently, all the depictions of Harry Hotspur from his time showed him with his visor down. (Incidentally, that picture does not look much like George Percy.)

Please note, Sloop is not in any way associated with Hotspur Gin and other gins are available

 

[ShelfWatcher]

That picture looks to me like a relatively recent creation. The likeness made me suspect that no one knows for sure what he actually looked like and that a Spurs fan was involved in the creation of the image. The picture also appears on the website of Hotspur Gin, who are based in Alnwick and also host the Alnwick Official Spurs Supporters Club - see https://www.hotspurgin.com/pages/harry-hotspur-history . They may well know more about it!

There is a statue of Harry Hotspur in the town of Alnwick. According to a blog post about it, the face was modelled on George Percy, Earl Percy, the son and heir to the current Duke of Northumberland. Apparently, all the depictions of Harry Hotspur from his time showed him with his visor down. (Incidentally, that picture does not look much like George Percy.)

Please note, Sloop is not in any way associated with Hotspur Gin and other gins are available

Great post, and of course further confirmation that our name comes from Harry Hotspur and his hot spurs in battle. Not that there was the slightest doubt in my mind. ?
If the picture is based on a modern creation and not historical likeness, it is tempting to think one Sir Harold Kane the hot footed striker played a part in the artists vision ??