How close are we to challenging City & Liverpool ?

[spurs mental]

I don't feel they are that far off. We turn it round in a season so can they. They have some decent players and trouble. Its all how good ETH is for me.

13 points and 29 GD is a big jump.

I don't see them challenging the top 2 next season, outsiders for top 4, but they need to change their club from top to bottom for ETH, and they aren't going to do that.

Been reported that if ETH wants a player but those higher up don't think he's right for United ETH will be overruled.

 

[JKendall13]

The truly great Premier League teams of the 21st century have been defined by world-class managers who implemented their playing style and vision of a significant period of time.

Ferguson's United, Wenger's Arsenal (pre-Emirates), Mourinho's Chelsea, and now Klopp's Liverpool and Guardiola's City. City and Chelsea have had intermittent success with other more short term managers due to their spending, but their sustained success has been most impressive under peak Mourinho and now Guardiola.

All that to say, I think less crucial than adding players for catching City and Liverpool would be to keep Conte for at least five years. While all the above projects were undergirded by huge amounts of transfer spending, especially City and Chelsea, recruitment is a lot easier when you have a stable manager and playing style. Also elite managers have a tendency to paper over the cracks of average recruitment which we saw with how Conte improved some players were thought were duds before he arrived.

We definitely need to spend and add players, but having a coach of Conte's caliber leading the project/recruitment and implementing the vision is the crucial force multiplier. Arsenal are spending gobs of cash at the moment, but are only improving in small increments because Arteta is nowhere near that level of manager and as such their recruitment is quite garbled and sometimes odd.

Unfortunately, Conte isn't really one to stick around places including clubs of very high stature so I think it will be hard for us to catch Liverpool and City as we'd really need him to commit for the medium to long term (3-5 years). On a more positive note, Conte is starting with two world class attackers in Kane and Son, which is the hardest thing to find and retain so we're definitely starting at a better spot than Klopp's Liverpool for example. The other thing that could really speed up our chase of those sides would be Kulusevski and Romero becoming genuinely World Class players while Kane and Son are still playing at a World Class level.

TL;DR: Keeping Conte for awhile is the main path to catch City/Liverpool as world-class managers are so crucial to building and maintaining projects like this. But it just isn't Conte's personality or history to stick around for the duration we'd need to make up the ground between City and Liverpool who are probably the two world's best teams and significantly richer.

 

[spurs mental]

Yeah we won't have the depth they both have, but as you say, the systems both work well and its ingrained on the players.

We've seen that start under Conte towards the latter end of the season. Look at how well Royal performed when Doc was out (Brighton and Brentford aside), I think it's safe to say we'll be able to rotate better when CL and cups start, and along along along 5 sub rule, a good squad with every player understanding their role when they play is more important than just the quality of the player.

@ralphs bald spot I know you like to disagree with a lot of people but not sure what exactly you're disagreeing with here when a lot of it based on what we saw?

 

[ralphs bald spot]

@ralphs bald spot I know you like to disagree with a lot of people but not sure what exactly you're disagreeing with here when a lot of it based on what we saw?

I only disagree a little bit with what you said ? but you can't have half a disagree sadly

I disagree with the bit about the quality of players over the system - I think the system is important and I agree that because he has a system that works he has a chance but the better players you have within that system the more chance you have - they both go together really but I think everyone agrees that within whatever system you use the better the players the more you improve it (otherwise we wouldn't all be spending our time salivating over new signings) - i think he needs to be and will be cut throat about things neither of the wing backs are top quality and he needs more options other than having Kane as a creative outlet which it can full down to sometimes - I think your right that within a system that is rigid it can carry players to a degree but it only gets you so far the challenge we have is bringing in players that will improve the first x1 and having other players to bolster the squad so we don't have the vast drops offs in performance which has happened at times this season

I am really not disagreeing that much with you

 

[Cochise]

I don't think we are a million miles off and this injection of funds should bring them closer. The issue though is not beating those teams but beating mid/lower end teams that normally trip us up. The challenge is becoming a winning machine and forcing those wins from games where the opposition look well up for it. It's about beating teams like Burnley who are comfortable sitting in for 90 and taking a point.

If we can do that, then we have caught up to the big two.

 

[west indie]

The past 4 seasons City and Liverpool have been relentless racking up late 80's and into 90+ points, law of averages this has to tail off at some point for one of them if not both.

Teams started to work us out towards the end of the season crowding out the centre of the pitch triple marking Kane even, thats why bringing in genuine wing back threats on either side will make us even more potent across the field and put an end to that tactic freeing up Kane. Who do you Mark?

 

[guiltyparty]

need 6 to 8 quality signings and even then might not be enough.. the gap is huge.. get close to 80 or 85 points and i would be happy nex t year

The thing is, you can’t bed 6-8 signings in in one season. Literally no one has ever done this.

It really isn’t just chucking a ton of money at it, tho that’s involved. It’s time, and building, and meshing existing players over performing with integrated players hitting the ground running, and also a bit of magic and luck.

I actually believe too many new players at once is a hindrance. It’s played out that way for us in the past, and you see Liverpool’s game-changing two signing season - but they were the right signings for everything to connect.

I would beware of thinking just lots of shiny new players equals anything. It’s the right ones that fit with the existing side. This chucking out half the squad stuff, as has been suggested elsewhere, I think is entirely unrealistic

 

[slartibartfast]

I think they'll have trouble keeping up with us lol.
Seriously though its possible.
We have 3 goal machines upfront. Sort the other end out and anything is possible.

 

[HodisGawd]

We're not far off building a title-winning team, in any normal era. But right now City and Liverpool are two truly incredible teams going toe-to-toe and feeding off each others' will to win and brilliance. They really are ridiculously good. I think we need Liverpool to run out of steam. They seem to have been operating on extreme overdrive the past few seasons and surely they can't keep it up. The road-runners like Robertson must just fall apart physically at some point. I think next season we can certainly be up there looking good, like Chelsea were for most of this season, but I'm not sure if we can reach their heights until one of them falls. Had Liverpool not found exactly the right player for them in Diaz, I would have wondered if it would happen next season given their reliance on Salah and Mane, but he looks just as good. You have to hand it to City and Liverpool. They are the two best teams the Prem has ever seen.

 

[SpartanSpur]

The past 4 seasons City and Liverpool have been relentless racking up late 80's and into 90+ points, law of averages this has to tail off at some point for one of them if not both.

Teams started to work us out towards the end of the season crowding out the centre of the pitch triple marking Kane even, thats why bringing in genuine wing back threats on either side will make us even more potent across the field and put an end to that tactic freeing up Kane. Who do you Mark?

This is it. Conte's plans are all about forcing overloads. Teams currently have a couple of players they leave in space (e.g. Royal/Sanchez). If we can get in a position where we are a serious threat all over that is the real gamechanger.

I think we're capable of giving Conte as squad as good or better than his 90 point Chelsea team this summer. Where 90 would put you in the conversation is anybody's guess!

 

[SpartanSpur]

We're not far off building a title-winning team, in any normal era. But right now City and Liverpool are two truly incredible teams going toe-to-toe and feeding off each others' will to win and brilliance. They really are ridiculously good. I think we need Liverpool to run out of steam. They seem to have been operating on extreme overdrive the past few seasons and surely they can't keep it up. The road-runners like Robertson must just fall apart physically at some point. I think next season we can certainly be up there looking good, like Chelsea were for most of this season, but I'm not sure if we can reach their heights until one of them falls. Had Liverpool not found exactly the right player for them in Diaz, I would have wondered if it would happen next season given their reliance on Salah and Mane, but he looks just as good. You have to hand it to City and Liverpool. They are the two best teams the Prem has ever seen.

I'd definitely hand it to Liverpool, supreme operation. City are also impeccably run but there is a massive blood and oil soaked elephant in the room with them.

 

[Spursmatty87]

I think the first step is building on this season improvements in the squad making sure we’re the third best team and getting the point Tally over 85 then maybe the season after we could challenge

 

[thebenjamin]

For me, Erling Haaland will elevate City to a supersonic level it’s frighting . He is Son and Kane combined. We can compete with both Liverpool and Chelsea . Next season Utd will be back in the mix.

Haaland is an interesting one. Incredible player, obviously. But scores most of his goals running in behind ubiquitous high lines in the Bundesliga. Every team he plays against in the PL (apart from liverpool) will have 10 players defending the penalty area. So that immediately wipes out his most significant strength.

His other obvious strength is fantastic movement inside the box attacking crosses, which obviously will remain a huge asset, but City don't really throw high balls into the box, it's more slide rule passes for tap ins. Do you need a six foot 4 monster to get on the end of those passes?

He is skillful with the ball at his feet, but 'for a big man' - he's not Man City skilful. He'll be a target man with his back to goal, but City don't really use that kind of player. He isn't going to be much of an asset around the box with city's tippy tappy intricate passing movements, they have several other players far better than Haaland at that.

So either City or Haaland are going to have to change the way they play. Realistically both will. Its going to be interesting. Obviously Guardiola has a plan, but I don't think it's the slam dunk success that, for example, Kane would've been at Man City. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he spent long periods out of the team while he learns new skills to fit in to Guardiola's style.

 

[Hertspur]

Haaland is an interesting one. Incredible player, obviously. But scores most of his goals running in behind ubiquitous high lines in the Bundesliga. Every team he plays against in the PL (apart from liverpool) will have 10 players defending the penalty area. So that immediately wipes out his most significant strength.

His other obvious strength is fantastic movement inside the box attacking crosses, which obviously will remain a huge asset, but City don't really throw high balls into the box, it's more slide rule passes for tap ins. Do you need a six foot 4 monster to get on the end of those passes?

He is skillful with the ball at his feet, but 'for a big man' - he's not Man City skilful. He'll be a target man with his back to goal, but City don't really use that kind of player. He isn't going to be much of an asset around the box with city's tippy tappy intricate passing movements, they have several other players far better than Haaland at that.

So either City or Haaland are going to have to change the way they play. Realistically both will. Its going to be interesting. Obviously Guardiola has a plan, but I don't think it's the slam dunk success that, for example, Kane would've been at Man City. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he spent long periods out of the team while he learns new skills to fit in to Guardiola's style.

For me this is why they are buying him. You could argue that they never play that way because they don't have a player like him. This is what is potentially scary about this signing is that it gives them another option, another tactic to use when passing it into the net isn't working. They can switch it up in a way they haven't been able to in recent seasons. Couldn't agree more with your first para though.

 

[Serpico]

Haaland is an interesting one. Incredible player, obviously. But scores most of his goals running in behind ubiquitous high lines in the Bundesliga. Every team he plays against in the PL (apart from liverpool) will have 10 players defending the penalty area. So that immediately wipes out his most significant strength.

His other obvious strength is fantastic movement inside the box attacking crosses, which obviously will remain a huge asset, but City don't really throw high balls into the box, it's more slide rule passes for tap ins. Do you need a six foot 4 monster to get on the end of those passes?

He is skillful with the ball at his feet, but 'for a big man' - he's not Man City skilful. He'll be a target man with his back to goal, but City don't really use that kind of player. He isn't going to be much of an asset around the box with city's tippy tappy intricate passing movements, they have several other players far better than Haaland at that.

So either City or Haaland are going to have to change the way they play. Realistically both will. Its going to be interesting. Obviously Guardiola has a plan, but I don't think it's the slam dunk success that, for example, Kane would've been at Man City. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he spent long periods out of the team while he learns new skills to fit in to Guardiola's style.

Everything you're suggesting I can see however I do feel he can play in very small areas. His burst of pace can be over a very short distance. With his size keeping people away.

 

[DiscoD1882]

all teams have to start somewhere. And we’ve got good foundation. No one knows what a couple of additions will do to a team. Look at the difference Kulu and Bentancour made to our season. Seems to me that conte knows what he wants and how he wants us to play. So I can see us being up there next season.

 

[Tucker]

Haaland is an interesting one. Incredible player, obviously. But scores most of his goals running in behind ubiquitous high lines in the Bundesliga. Every team he plays against in the PL (apart from liverpool) will have 10 players defending the penalty area. So that immediately wipes out his most significant strength.

His other obvious strength is fantastic movement inside the box attacking crosses, which obviously will remain a huge asset, but City don't really throw high balls into the box, it's more slide rule passes for tap ins. Do you need a six foot 4 monster to get on the end of those passes?

He is skillful with the ball at his feet, but 'for a big man' - he's not Man City skilful. He'll be a target man with his back to goal, but City don't really use that kind of player. He isn't going to be much of an asset around the box with city's tippy tappy intricate passing movements, they have several other players far better than Haaland at that.

So either City or Haaland are going to have to change the way they play. Realistically both will. Its going to be interesting. Obviously Guardiola has a plan, but I don't think it's the slam dunk success that, for example, Kane would've been at Man City. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he spent long periods out of the team while he learns new skills to fit in to Guardiola's style.

Watch Pep do something ludicrous like play him on the wing as a false 7 or some such shit.

 

[Japhet]

When we played them and matched starters vs starters it didn’t look that far but the season is an absolute marathon and we’ve definitely got to find some solutions to unlock certain teams. We definitely don’t have the depth although I think we’ll address a lot of that this summer.

I definitely see us stepping up a level or two and could see us challenging our highest points total but that might still be 10 points short given how dominant these two have been. They also have created a fear factor with smaller clubs that just roll over for them in a similar way to Norwich did against us. We’ve shown we can cough up points if teams are just stubborn so I don’t expect some of the easier rides that the top two will get.

I think we definitely need a midfielder who will run at the opposition or be able to thread balls through to our front line. Ndombele was supposed to be that and did manage it on a fair few occasions. He's obviously toast now, but a player like Milenkovic Savic would be an absolute barnstorming signing for us imo, given his scoring and assisting abilities. Failing that, Barak looks like he'd offer something different for much, much less.

 

[allpaths]

City and Liverpool squads are both getting older, key players are becoming more injury prone and contracts are running down.

City's backline is borderline broken. Laporte is overrated, Dias had a down year and Cancelo is more attack and possession based. The key to city's back 4 is Kyle Walker and his pace. He's the 2nd most important player in city's system only behind de Bruyne. Walker single handily halts oppositions counterattacks, allowing the rest of the side to cheat for offense. As we saw at the of the season Walker, struggled with injuries down the stretch, arguably the biggest factor in city's bottlejob vs Real, and looking much more vulnerable against villa and west ham. Walker's is past 30 now, he's only going to get slower and more vulnerable to picking up niggling knocks that lower his effectiveness.

City are always going to be the ultimate flat track bullies, especially with the addition of Haaland, but they are not a team without flaws. And if they lose de Bruyne and Walker specifically for any considerable amount of time, they wont be so infallible.

Liverpool is imo in a better spot the City. They got the best front line in world football and in Kanate, VVD and Matip they got a top 5 centerback group, along with TAA, Robertson and Tsimikas they got ideal fullbacks for there system.

Liverpool's only "weakness" is their midfield. Henderson is steady but unspectacular. Keita is completely underwhelming. While Fabinho is well schooled in the fernandinho school of tactical fouling substitute for actually defending. Thiago is still class, but doesn't have the legs. Liverpool already missed out on a primary target in tchouameni.

This is much more of a reach. But my hope is that the amount of games and high intensity catches up with Pool. Salah continues his late season ineffectiveness as teams figure him out more often. Mane goes to Munich and they arent able to effectively reinvest. They already brought in Fulham's Carvalho which is stunning business, but he's still very young, lightweight and inexperienced.

Maybe we just get lucky enough, both sides have down years, key injuries ect. And a rejuvenated spurs are well positioned to take advantage.

 

[C1w8]

The thing is, you can’t bed 6-8 signings in in one season. Literally no one has ever done this.

It really isn’t just chucking a ton of money at it, tho that’s involved. It’s time, and building, and meshing existing players over performing with integrated players hitting the ground running, and also a bit of magic and luck.

I actually believe too many new players at once is a hindrance. It’s played out that way for us in the past, and you see Liverpool’s game-changing two signing season - but they were the right signings for everything to connect.

I would beware of thinking just lots of shiny new players equals anything. It’s the right ones that fit with the existing side. This chucking out half the squad stuff, as has been suggested elsewhere, I think is entirely unrealistic

I think we're at least 6 players off (for the squad, not all starters) so that we are able to deal with any injuries/suspensions without loss of quality...but I really hope we dont sign all 6+ this summer and try to get them to mesh all at once!

We got 2 in January and look at the impact - give it a couple more windows to get to the full squad of players we want i feel would be better.