How close are we to challenging City & Liverpool ?

[DogsOfWar]

This is it. Conte's plans are all about forcing overloads. Teams currently have a couple of players they leave in space (e.g. Royal/Sanchez). If we can get in a position where we are a serious threat all over that is the real gamechanger.

I think we're capable of giving Conte as squad as good or better than his 90 point Chelsea team this summer. Where 90 would put you in the conversation is anybody's guess!

This is it in a nutshell, creating a team that can hurt you from every position.

At the start of the season if you stopped Son and Kane you stopped Tottenham.
When we added Kulu teams suddenly had someone else to deal with, having to double up on 3 players, so ended up playing deep but could still leave our wingbacks on their own.

If we can now bring in the equivalent of TTA/Robertson or Chilwell/James then we move up to that next level. Even more so if we can get Bastoni in to bring the ball out.

 

[barry]

Very close imo. I think next season, transfers allowing, Conte will make us a hard team to beat. If Mane leaves Liverpool, Haaland doesn't make City unstoppable, and with our attack being amazing already, there's a chance of a suprise. A slim chance, but a chance. We shall see

 

[hellava_tough]

I'd like to see what we could do with 2 top-quality WBs (obviously one on each side).

They're so important to Conte's system.

This season our WBs weren't particularly good, especially attacking. That's not to criticise any particular individual and there was some good play in patches, but if we want to challenge at the top level they need to be upgraded.

Put it this way; what would we look like, week in and week out, if we had Maehle and Perisic playing for us?

 

[sparx100]

I think that we are still a fair way behind Liverpool and City in terms of first 11 strength and overall squad depth. I don't see a weak link in Liverpool or City's first 11's and their squads are strong and not just full of average players.

I think if he gets his 6 signings we will become much more competitive and the teams we struggle in breaking down we will find it easier to open up.

2 wing backs, centre back, central midfielder and a winger/striker would give us depth, but it just depends on the quality of those players as to whether we can get closer to them. Remember they finished 20+ points ahead of us which is 7 or 8 more wins in a season. That's a massive difference to make up.

 

[hellava_tough]

If we look at our league results from this season, there's a massive amount of room for realistic improvement.

Let's split the games we played into 3 groups:

A.Games we won and will be favourites in the fixture next season (57pts in 21/22)
We managed 57pts in these games this season. As we would probably be favourites in the corresponding fixtures next season, this isn't where you'd look for improvements.

B.Games we won/lost/drew and won't be favourites in the fixture next season (11pts from 30pts in 21/22)
We managed 11pts from 30pts in these games this season. These were games against the 'big' teams in the league (and Arsenal). We'll certainly get some points from these fixtures next season, but we can't rely on improvement in these games.

C.Games we lost or drew and will be favourites in next season (3pts from 27pts in 21/22)
We managed 3pts from 27pts in these games. These are all the disappointing results from this season, where we really let ourseleves down and where we'd hope to do a lot better next season. There's massive room for improvement here.

So can we challenge the top 2?

Well if we got 0pts from the 'B' games and 27pts from the 'C' games, whilst maintaining the wins from the 'A' games (all on average), then that would leave us with 84pts.

That would give us a comfortable 3rd place this season (74pts), but still quite a way off the 92pts and 93pts of the top 2 sides.

Ultimately, to catch the Top 2, we'd need to be ridiculously consistent against the teams we should be beating.

What gives me hope is that Conte will have the team competitive in the 'B' games and I'm confident that we'll pick up 9pts to 14pts from these fixtures next season.

So then it's all about the relentless grind against the rest of the league.

It's doable, but very tough...as we all know

Spoiler: 2021/22 PL Results

Games we won and will be favourites in the fixture next season (57pts in 21/22)
Aston Villa 0–4 Tottenham Hotspur
Brighton & Hove Albion 0–2 Tottenham Hotspur
Leeds United 0–4 Tottenham Hotspur
Leicester City 2–3 Tottenham Hotspur
Newcastle United 2–3 Tottenham Hotspur
Norwich City 0–5Tottenham Hotspur
Tottenham Hotspur 3–0 Crystal Palace
Tottenham Hotspur 5–0 Everton
Tottenham Hotspur 3–1 West Ham United
Tottenham Hotspur 5–1 Newcastle United
Tottenham Hotspur 3–1 Leicester City
Tottenham Hotspur 1–0 Burnley
Watford 0–1 Tottenham Hotspur
Wolverhampton Wanderers 0–1 Tottenham Hotspur
Tottenham Hotspur 1–0 Watford
Tottenham Hotspur 2–1 Aston Villa
Tottenham Hotspur 2–1 Leeds United
Tottenham Hotspur 2–0 Brentford
Tottenham Hotspur 3–0 Norwich City

Games we won/lost/drew and won't be favourites in the fixture next season (11pts from 30pts in 21/22)
Manchester City 2–3 Tottenham Hotspur
Tottenham Hotspur 3–0 Arsenal
Tottenham Hotspur 1–0 Manchester City
Tottenham Hotspur 2–2 Liverpool
Liverpool 1–1 Tottenham Hotspur
Arsenal 3–1 Tottenham Hotspur
Chelsea 2–0 Tottenham Hotspur
Manchester United 3–2 Tottenham Hotspur
Tottenham Hotspur 0–3 Chelsea
Tottenham Hotspur 0–3 Manchester United

Games we lost or drew and will be favourites in next season (3pts from 27pts in 21/22)
Brentford 0–0 Tottenham Hotspur
Everton 0–0 Tottenham Hotspur
Southampton 1–1 Tottenham Hotspur
Burnley 1–0 Tottenham Hotspur
Crystal Palace 3–0 Tottenham Hotspur
Tottenham Hotspur 2–3 Southampton
Tottenham Hotspur 0–2 Wolverhampton Wanderers
Tottenham Hotspur 0–1 Brighton & Hove Albion
West Ham United 1–0 Tottenham Hotspur

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

Good tactical analysis:

How close are Tottenham to challenging for title:

 

[kaz Hirai]

miles away imo.

we'd have to be bring in 4 or 5 crazy talented players to even look toward their consistency , richarlison, spence, an aging eriksen. These level players will help us consolidate 4th, maybe close up a little on last seasons chelsea but no more

 

[EastUpperDK82]

We need to be able to look at our starting 11 and bench at all times and trust the players we see to deliver in any environment, tournament and situation... also to be able to change games from the bench (tactics)... I think that is what Conte is asking for as well... we need to be in peak condition and have all the tools to balance the league and the cups... injuries, bad luck, VAR and so on is out of our hands... but we have to address anything that we can improve and eliminate ourselves.

Before we do that, we are not close to City and Liverpool.

In Conte we have the man to bring us there... and we are backing him. Let's see ?

 

[dannythomas]

We need to be able to look at our starting 11 and bench at all times and trust the players we see to deliver in any environment, tournament and situation... also to be able to change games from the bench (tactics)... I think that is what Conte is asking for as well... we need to be in peak condition and have all the tools to balance the league and the cups... injuries, bad luck, VAR and so on is out of our hands... but we have to address anything that we can improve and eliminate ourselves.

Before we do that, we are not close to City and Liverpool.

In Conte we have the man to bring us there... and we are backing him. Let's see ?

Let’s hold back on how much Levy backs him until he spends the money.

 

[ultimateloner]

The Tifo vid above summarizes it pretty well I think.

Need to earn more pts/drop less pts against the 'easier' teams, who primarily either:
1) Press high to break our build-up play from the back (E.g. Southampton)
2) Defend in a mid-block to force turn-overs in the mid of the park (e.g. Brighton).

Their proposed solution is better ball-playing CBs/WBs.

Also to beat teams who defend in a low-block (E.g Burnley) need better ACMs (swap out Kulu) to supply Kane + Son.

Tifo acknowledges that we are a primarily counter-attacking team relying on our front 3 to do all the scoring.

 

[THOWIG]

We're along way off. City aren't considering the likes of Spence, Richarlison. However, if we have a good window we could finish 3rd and then have another good window next summer. We just need to be patient and we're not.

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

A title challenge is not as far-fetched as many are thinking.

19-20 season, Man City were 18 points off the leaders - won the league in 20-21

16-17 season, Man City were 15 points off the leaders - won the league in 17-18

15-16 season, Chelsea were 31 points off the leaders - won the league in 16-17

14-15 season, Leicester were 38 points off the leaders - won the league in 15-16

 

[mattstev2000]

We're a long way away at the moment, and I'm not sure that the signings that have been made and/or rumoured will push us to that next level (more likely they will make competing on multiple fronts easier and consolidate 4th for us).

Biggest worry for me is there doesn't seem to be a lot of noise about new central midfielders coming in. I think the change from Winks to Bentancur illustrated how important it is to have quality in the middle of the park and at the moment I still feel we are one or two injuries away from really struggling in that area.

It sounds like the holes in defence and the wingbacks are being worked on but central mid seems suspiciously quiet.

 

[Timberwolf]

Good tactical analysis:

How close are Tottenham to challenging for title:

Great analysis, that. Really like this new Tifo guy - clearly knows his shit.

 

[BoringOldFan]

For me, the key to our chances is how good our bench is. The low point was Vitesse Arnhem, when Nuno left the 'first team' at home - only for them also to lose to West Ham at the weekend.

I would expect only four of that side to be here come September 2, Davies, Sanchez, Tanganga, and Scarlett, the last two possibly being out on loan.

At the end of the Norwich game, Conte had used three subs, and the only senior squad players left on the bench were Gollini and Rodon. With injuries and suspensions, we will need a full senior squad of 25 (last season we started with 20 and ended with 14 fit outfield players) if we are to compete on all fronts.

 

[dontcallme]

For me, the key to our chances is how good our bench is. The low point was Vitesse Arnhem, when Nuno left the 'first team' at home - only for them also to lose to West Ham at the weekend.

I would expect only four of that side to be here come September 2, Davies, Sanchez, Tanganga, and Scarlett, the last two possibly being out on loan.

At the end of the Norwich game, Conte had used three subs, and the only senior squad players left on the bench were Gollini and Rodon. With injuries and suspensions, we will need a full senior squad of 25 (last season we started with 20 and ended with 14 fit outfield players) if we are to compete on all fronts.

Yep. The ECL really exposed how poor many of our squad options are.

It seems the players we're looking to sell mostly won't be missed at all even if they're the first backup for the 1st team.

 

[rossdapep]

A title challenge is not as far-fetched as many are thinking.

19-20 season, Man City were 18 points off the leaders - won the league in 20-21

16-17 season, Man City were 15 points off the leaders - won the league in 17-18

15-16 season, Chelsea were 31 points off the leaders - won the league in 16-17

14-15 season, Leicester were 38 points off the leaders - won the league in 15-16

Exactly

I always find these '*insert club* needs to make up 22 points' comments a little inaccurate.

Firstly, the number of points a champion accumulates varies season by season. Granted City and Liverpool are hitting around 90 points consistently....

BUT that does not factor in the possibility that they have an off-season, which they both have had in the last few years (City 19-20, Liverpool 20-21) where their points tally was lower.

If all of Tottenham, Chelsea and United were to improve, then their points tallies would increase and they would potentially all be able to take more points from City and Pool at the same time, which would lower the champions final points tally potentially.

Another aspect not taken into consideration is that had we appointed Conte last summer, we would have gained more points an it would be more like 12 points difference.

 

[For the love of Spurs]

Elite manager: check.

Elite DOF: Check

Elite infrastructure: Check.

Elite back room: working on it.

World class players: check.

Two good players for each position: probably 7-8 good players away from that.

2 CB’s, 2 CM, 1 RWB, 1 Winger 1 Forward in addition to Perisic and Forster and you are probably at the 2 good players per position ratio. At that point we couldn’t be far off at least Liverpool.

 

[mil1lion]

A title challenge is not as far-fetched as many are thinking.

19-20 season, Man City were 18 points off the leaders - won the league in 20-21

16-17 season, Man City were 15 points off the leaders - won the league in 17-18

15-16 season, Chelsea were 31 points off the leaders - won the league in 16-17

14-15 season, Leicester were 38 points off the leaders - won the league in 15-16

Indeed, we were ahead of Liverpool until they signed Allison and VVD when they surged that season and finished 2nd winning the CL
Key changes can have a massive impact as we've seen when Conte came in and then when Kulusevski and Bentancur were signed
There's no rule that says you must build x amount of points before you can challenge for a tile. Season starts at 0.

 

[JCRD]

It is a difficult one because they are two of the best sides in the world but I do think we can challenge them next season. The real acid test is - can we challenge over an extended period of time, year in year out rather than just a one off. It takes a hell of a lot of strength and mental fortitude to do that.

One thing is for clear, if we are going to challenge it needs to be int he next three or so years because we have Kane and Son at their peak.