How long do you give the manager?

[michaelden]

We'll see after the West Ham game.

pfft why wait so long? His first game was a draw, if the next isn't a win it means we aren't improving so sack him ;-)

 

[Amo]

pfft why wait so long? His first game was a draw, if the next isn't a win it means we aren't improving so sack him ;-)

No mate, after all the turmoil at the club in recent years we should at least give him a whole pre-season.

 

[spurious1]

I think those saying two full years are being rather optimistic. The mean lifetime of a prem manager in a job is 379 days...and Spurs are not exactly the club setting the longevity records (although, we are actually far from the worst).
My prediction:

In or around relegation places at Christmas = sacked.

Anything below 6th at the end of the season would be considered a complete failure, = sacked.

Finishing 6th = possibly sacked.

If not sacked this season, finishing outside the CL places next season = sacked, unless a major cup (EL or FA) were won (winning the first equaling CL, of course).

No way will he get "2 full years to get his ideas across", unless that period of idea conveying is accompanied by the achievement of the club's short term aim, which is in our case getting into the CL. Which has been our short-term aim for an awful long time!

Not saying that is the way it should necessarily be, just how it actually is if you look at the PL manager's job.

 

[Norse]

What do you mean by 'does not work'? Only Ramos 'didn't work' - we were likely to be relegated. All of the others, since Levy changed his approach in 2003/04, 'worked': we won most of our matches, we were improving over any chosen 3 year period and we played entertaining football.

Because the way to build a successful team with its own style and personality is to let the manager create that style and that personality. As long as we aren't in danger of relegation, we should leave the manager alone.

Every time in the past 10 years that we have replaced the manager, with exception of the time we were in relegation trouble under Ramos, we have been pursuing a 'next level', but we have gone backwards. Ramos was not an upgrade on Jol, AVB was not an upgrade on Redknapp and Sherwood was not an upgrade on AVB. All that was accomplished by replacing them was to destabilise the squad, throw away years of tactical instruction and consistency and encourage certain players (who were happy under the incumbent manager) to leave the club.

We haven't appointed any really shit managers since 2004 - they've all been pretty bright, talented guys. What they needed was to be left in a condition of job security for 4-6 years. Especially Redknapp, who managed to combine ability with achievement.

Instead, every time we appeared to be settling into our role as the 'next, most likely club', we'd change tack again. Most of the time, this was incredibly frustrating. But once, when Levy sacked Redknapp, it was pure insanity.

Thanks for giving a well reasoned reply. I can agree with you that the idea of upgrading managers has not always worked well and that in retrospect, Redknapp perhaps should have stayed. I am saying perhaps, as he upset me and I am sure many in the organization with his verbal and off court antics. You did not feel as you could trust him, though the football was beautiful to watch, even if most of the flair players had been brought in by others. I miss the football and the players, but not the interviews and his hypocracy.

With regards to AVB, you did describe his football as turgid, if memory serves me correct, and for me that is "not working." I cancelled my Premier League subscribtion. Much rather watch paint dry.
I don't much like the use and throw away mentality that Levy has used either, but AVB was a prime example of someone who did a poor job, in that he took away the joy of watching Spurs. I don't think he would have improved either, and that is the key.

 

[FinnYid]

I think those saying two full years are being rather optimistic. The mean lifetime of a prem manager in a job is 379 days...and Spurs are not exactly the club setting the longevity records (although, we are actually far from the worst).
My prediction:

In or around relegation places at Christmas = sacked.

Anything below 6th at the end of the season would be considered a complete failure, = sacked.

Finishing 6th = possibly sacked.

If not sacked this season, finishing outside the CL places next season = sacked, unless a major cup (EL or FA) were won (winning the first equaling CL, of course).

No way will he get "2 full years to get his ideas across", unless that period of idea conveying is accompanied by the achievement of the club's short term aim, which is in our case getting into the CL. Which has been our short-term aim for an awful long time!

Not saying that is the way it should necessarily be, just how it actually is if you look at the PL manager's job.

Not saying your prediction is wrong, but I'm so disillusioned with our squad that can't even see 7th as complete failure and feel little chances of getting more than 6th. Baldini and Levy really need to look to the mirror instead of kicking manangers unless Bobby and Erik improve drastically next season. When it comes to Paulinho, well just can't find any sort of optimism regarding him.

 

[fatpiranha]

I think it's fairly obvious that the '4th or you're gone' policy doesn't apply to Poch. We haven't brought in a manager reputed to be a tactical genius but rather one who has a reputation for working with what he's got and developing young players. Levy will want a return from last summer's Bale fueled spending spree.

I believe after many failures to find the next managerial genius and become an overnight success Levy has realised we don't have the financial clout to compete for CL places in the league. We are now marking time until the new stadium is built and we have a better chance of competing for the top players financially. Poch has been brought in to develop young players ready for an assault on the CL places once the new stadium is in place.

It helps that he has a reputation for playing attractive football to placate the fans as I don't see many big money signings until the new stadium is in place, especially not older players who might not be around when it is completed. We'll get decent football to watch and will probably take the cups far more seriously than in recent seasons, but we won't be troubling the 'Top 4' for a good while.

Barring a relegation threat Poch is safe until the new stadium is built. After that ... who knows? Levy is Levy .

 

[whitesocks]

Fergy (the usual example trotted out by the non-demanding) was no novice when he joined manu - he had a good 10 trophies behind him including the UEFA CW cup.
Of course that was all wiped from the history books.
ManU stuck with him as he had proved that he could consistently get results, against the odds.
Even with the revenue the game generates now, I think they'd have stuck by Moyes if he had the same track record.

We have now appointed a manager who's success so far in his short career has been in keeping his clubs up.
He has never had to deal with a squad as talented as ours, and he certainly hasn't won anything.
Sorry - they are the facts of the matter.
The hope is that some of the magic from the enthusiast Bielsa has rubbed off - er, just like AVB learnt from Mourinho......
It is a worry.

And I have little faith in Levy/Lewis after their last couple of appointments - if they can hand over the steering wheel of company worth £150m revenue to a man with zero experience, then there is something pretty loony going on.
Those previous appointments seem to have been made for non footballing reasons.
It is another worry.

Generally, we should be a more demanding club.
We should have some success/glory now now now as we've already waited too long.
It is the bloody meek who are the problem, imo.

 

[spurious1]

I think it's fairly obvious that the '4th or you're gone' policy doesn't apply to Poch. We haven't brought in a manager reputed to be a tactical genius but rather one who has a reputation for working with what he's got and developing young players. Levy will want a return from last summer's Bale fueled spending spree.

I believe after many failures to find the next managerial genius and become an overnight success Levy has realised we don't have the financial clout to compete for CL places in the league. We are now marking time until the new stadium is built and we have a better chance of competing for the top players financially. Poch has been brought in to develop young players ready for an assault on the CL places once the new stadium is in place.

It helps that he has a reputation for playing attractive football to placate the fans as I don't see many big money signings until the new stadium is in place, especially not older players who might not be around when it is completed. We'll get decent football to watch and will probably take the cups far more seriously than in recent seasons, but we won't be troubling the 'Top 4' for a good while.

Barring a relegation threat Poch is safe until the new stadium is built. After that ... who knows? Levy is Levy .

I find that a little hard to believe. There is a certain track record here - hell, they've sacked a manager that finished 4th. I think he will get sacked if we don't finish 5th, personally. Of course I hope that's not the case (neither the sacking, nor, the finishing 5th or lower). Because we are 5th in money - so anything below 5th is under performing. That's the way they look at. And who knows, maybe they're right. We seem to be consistently 5th +- 1 regardless of the manager for several years now. It's just a pity that the magic spot is 4th, not 5th...

 

[SpurSince57]

How long? Until it doesn't make sense anymore.

It didn't make a lot of sense to get rid of AVB when we did, especially not with how the season continued to unravel after he left. Sherwood leaving when he did made sense.

Once the wheels come off or there's been evidence to, not suggest, but confirm that a philosophy isn't working and most likely never will, that's when a manager should go.

But from the ITK and Burt's AVB-friendly pieces in the Telegraph it appears that it wasn't the results but a terminal falling-out with Levy (and possibly just about everyone else) that did for the Bearded Wonder. And no, the season didn't 'continue to unravel'.

 

[Shadydan]

I find that a little hard to believe. There is a certain track record here - hell, they've sacked a manager that finished 4th. I think he will get sacked if we don't finish 5th, personally. Of course I hope that's not the case (neither the sacking, nor, the finishing 5th or lower). Because we are 5th in money - so anything below 5th is under performing. That's the way they look at. And who knows, maybe they're right. We seem to be consistently 5th +- 1 regardless of the manager for several years now. It's just a pity that the magic spot is 4th, not 5th...

We have the 6th highest wage bill in the league, not 5th.

 

[Monkey Bastard Hands]

I think those saying two full years are being rather optimistic. The mean lifetime of a prem manager in a job is 379 days...and Spurs are not exactly the club setting the longevity records (although, we are actually far from the worst).
My prediction:

In or around relegation places at Christmas = sacked.

Anything below 6th at the end of the season would be considered a complete failure, = sacked.

Finishing 6th = possibly sacked.

If not sacked this season, finishing outside the CL places next season = sacked, unless a major cup (EL or FA) were won (winning the first equaling CL, of course).

No way will he get "2 full years to get his ideas across", unless that period of idea conveying is accompanied by the achievement of the club's short term aim, which is in our case getting into the CL. Which has been our short-term aim for an awful long time!

Not saying that is the way it should necessarily be, just how it actually is if you look at the PL manager's job.

The thing is that the manager can only work with the squad he's got, and the fact is that Liverpool, Chelsea, City, United, and Arsenal all have better squads than ours. Not by much in some cases, but they are better in terms of players and finances. For us to finish higher than any of them at the moment would be a real case of us punching above our weight. We will need some proper investment in the squad if we're to beat any of those teams so we need to be realistic and come to terms with the fact that we are only ever going to be a top 6 team unless we buy more, or the teams above us unravel (which is unlikely).

If Poch gets sacked for finishing 6th then I would probably just give up.

 

[spurious1]

We have the 6th highest wage bill in the league, not 5th.

Ok, good to know. I thought we were 5th in something...revenue? At any rate, I think finishing 5th would be the average result expected of us, and 4th the hope. I mean at board level, fans have wildly different views.

You would say City and Chelsea have bought their places in the top 4 more or less guaranteed each year (my personal opinion is that the FA should offer to just sell them those places directly, which is essentially what happens anyhow, and put that enormous amount of money into e.g. the lower leagues or something worthy, rather than all that money going into the pockets of agents). Then ManU and Arse always usually finish ahead of us (ManU with one probably never-to-be-repeated blip). We usually (lately) finish ahead of Liverpool and Everton. Pool had a great Suarez-fueled year last year - you might argue he was even more important to them than Bale for us the season before last. We should expect that we can finish ahead of them, in spite of some deluded fools talking about a "big 5" with pool in it, on the basis of them finishing in the top 4, even 5, once in the last 5 or so seasons.

Then, have to hope one of the real big 4 has an off season (and we don't!) which after all does happen pretty much every year to one of them.

So I still maintain Poch will probably get sacked if we finish 6th. Not to say I think necessarily he should be, depends on the way it plays out, but that's the history.

 

[Shadydan]

I'd be very surprised if he's sacked for finishing 6th because he would have 'achieved' par to where we ought to be finish based on money. We don't have the divine right to finish above Liverpool, they're a better team than us, they're more settled and have more money than us as well, it's as simple as that.

If Poch can bring the smiles back to the faces of the players and fans, let's face it he's done half the job - I think he'll also be assessed on the type of football we play and his ability to bring youngsters through. In theory he shouldn't have a hard job this season, however it's next season I'm fearing because if he does reasonably well this year he'd be expected to push on and it's almost inevitable that players like Hugo and Verts may not be here, anyway we'll see.

 

[Matthew Gilbert]

As long as we finish around where we rank with our financial spend, I cannot see Poch. going. Also hearing him talk about he will build the team in his image over several transfer windows makes me wonder if he has the backing of Levy over a longer time frame, except in a complete collapse.

 

[SpurSince57]

Ok, good to know. I thought we were 5th in something...revenue? At any rate, I think finishing 5th would be the average result expected of us, and 4th the hope. I mean at board level, fans have wildly different views.

You would say City and Chelsea have bought their places in the top 4 more or less guaranteed each year (my personal opinion is that the FA should offer to just sell them those places directly, which is essentially what happens anyhow, and put that enormous amount of money into e.g. the lower leagues or something worthy, rather than all that money going into the pockets of agents). Then ManU and Arse always usually finish ahead of us (ManU with one probably never-to-be-repeated blip). We usually (lately) finish ahead of Liverpool and Everton. Pool had a great Suarez-fueled year last year - you might argue he was even more important to them than Bale for us the season before last. We should expect that we can finish ahead of them, in spite of some deluded fools talking about a "big 5" with pool in it, on the basis of them finishing in the top 4, even 5, once in the last 5 or so seasons.

Then, have to hope one of the real big 4 has an off season (and we don't!) which after all does happen pretty much every year to one of them.

So I still maintain Poch will probably get sacked if we finish 6th. Not to say I think necessarily he should be, depends on the way it plays out, but that's the history.

Why? Their turnover is £60m more than ours (so they're as far ahead of us as we are ahead of Newcastle), added to which they're prepared to run a far higher level of debt. Of course they're part of a big five, FFS. We finished ahead of them for four seasons only because the Spanish Waiter lost the plot, because Woy and King Kenny weren't up to the job, and because Bodgers needed a season to sort out the mess he'd inherited.

They and the other four are always going to be able to pay more for players and pay them more, and four of them will be able to offer them CL too. Given managers of equal ability, the big five are always going to finish ahead of us—and they have Pellegrini, Mourinho, van Gaal, Wenger and Bodgers (although I'm not totally convinced by him yet). Unless Pochettino turns out to be something very special indeed, I don't see that he's going to be able to bridge that gap. The best we can realistically hope for is that he will hang on very tightly to their coat-tails so we can take advantage if someone (or preferably some two) slips up.

 

[ultimateloner]

If we are below mid-table by xmas sack.
if we don't get 6th or above end of season sack.

No point talking about how long you give the manager..because it's completely dependent on results.