I keep hearing this argument....

[cjsimba]

Now I'm not one to get sucked in by other fans' biased views, opinions etc. but this argument really irks me for its lack of logical reasoning (I know logical thought is a tall order to expect from Arsenal fans, but its absence is still frustrating here). I keep hearing the same argument from arsenal fans when talking about Spurs's improvement (and Charlie Nicholas just said it on SSN*) - 'this is Arsene Wenger's worst ever team, we're playing so poorly, and Spurs are still only 4 points ahead, haha......'

What Arsenal fans fail to realise is that 10 years ago we were miles behind them in quality. Over the last 10 years we have gradually improved as they have gradually declined. Now we are fairly even and we are probably just edging in front of them. Their argument forgets this and tries to dismiss Tottenham's fantastic improvement by treating the 2 clubs as always having been equal, and therefore if Spurs are only just ahead when Arsenal are playing so badly, they cant be that good. Also, in reality, Arsenal aren't playing badly. They are no longer a title challenging team so you cant keep comparing their current team to the invincibles etc.. Now, they are a team fighting for 4th place, and that is exactly what they are doing at the moment. Therefore, Spurs, a team with similar present ambitions, being 4 points ahead is an achievement.....Their argument is like saying Usain Bolt is a terrible sprinter because he only beat his rival sprinter by 0.1 seconds when in reality his rival sprinter had a 5 second head start - they fail to appreciate where Spurs have come from to get where they are now, and fail to appreciate how they are no longer a title winning side who at the moment are 'just playing badly'.

Does anyone else often hear a similar argument?

*Charlie Nicholas - what a tit. Came out with the above argument, then (ok, jokingly - but still annoyingly) said the only way to stop Bale was to kick him, and (again jokingly) maintained Arsenal could be Bale's next club. The guy (like a lot of Arsenal fans) is rattled and scared of us. He desparately tried to claim Arsenal were still superior and laughed off Tottenham's improvement, before 'predicting' that Arsenal 'might just nick a draw' in the game.

 

[danielneeds]

TBH, it says more about how bad the league is this year that Arsenal can still roll over some teams, despite their defence.

 

[OneHotspur1988]

Arse fans a twunts. Don't listen to them.

 

[Spurs Chink]

I wouldn't bother. Generally Arsenal fans spew out the same bs it. They hear it off an ex player/manager etc and carbon copy it with precise.

It's too joke how the years have gone by and the gooner scum I know or have met repeat the same shit.

 

[hughy]

The only thing Arsenal have over us is their ability to really rout the lesser teams and score 4/5 goals, whereas we very rarely beat a team by more than 2 goals - only Fulham and Villa away so far this season IIRC. It does wonders for their GD, which is as good as an extra point come the end of the season.

Then again, that's what happens when you have 1 and a half decent strikers.

 

[cjsimba]

I do ignore 99% of it but I guess its just the unbelievable lack of logical reasoning in ignoring the past and the depths we have come from to get where we are and the heights they have dropped from to get where they are that got to me.

I suppose they can similarly say any spurs fan that says we have now overtaken them is ignoring how they have finished above us for the last x amount of seasons.....the difference being however that i think we as fans recognize that we need to consistently finish above them for a few seasons now to be deemed superior; all we are actually saying right now is that this season (last couple of seasons) we have a better team/squad/future

 

[idontgetit]

• We lost three world class players in VDV, Modric and King before the start of the season, the spine of our team is totally different.
• Our best CB from last year hasn't played a single game this season.
• Our only genuine left back has barely played a game
• Our best DM is going to miss half the season
• Adebayor missed half the season and we only have one other striker
• Our manager was sacked in the summer and the new guy has a totally different style and on top of that the press were out for blood for his first 3 months in charge

Big changes to us, they can't really take the piss out of us for only being 4 points ahead

 

[cjsimba]

• We lost three world class players in VDV, Modric and King before the start of the season, the spine of our team is totally different.
• Our best CB from last year hasn't played a single game this season.
• Our only genuine left back has barely played a game
• Our best DM is going to miss half the season
• Adebayor missed half the season and we only have one other striker
• Our manager was sacked in the summer and the new guy has a totally different style and on top of that the press were out for blood for his first 3 months in charge

Big changes to us, they can't really take the piss out of us for only being 4 points ahead

Exactly my point but also for them to say that we are only barely ahead of their worst ever team ignores the fact that their teams during the 00's were a different class. So of course this is Wenger's worst team, but that is compared to his previous title winning sides. Their current 'plight' is only existent when you compare their current team to the invincibles etc. In reality, their team at the moment should be challenging for 4th spot, like us, and that is exactly where they are at. Therefore, the fact that we are 4 points ahead should be seen as a great achievement, rather than the 'you're only just ahead of us and we're the worst we've ever been' ridiculing argument - it ignores where Spurs have come from, and mistakes the current targets/position of Arsenal at this time

 

[JimmyG2]

Let's wait until Sunday tea time before we start crowing too loudly.
Then let's keep it just a tiny bit tight lipped until the end of the season
because we have a well established tradition of cocking things up, lasagna anyone?
And bottling it two seasons running.
And Arsenal have an irritating ability to make the most of what limited means they have.
We may or may not have overtaken them this season. I think we have
but their record under Wenger is impressive even if they haven't actually won anything.
I'd swap our record for theirs in the last decade or so.
Of course they're whistling in the dark, don't we all?

I'd certainly take Wilshere and Cazorla and possibly Arteta and Giroud over some of ours.
We don't need Walcott, we've express trains of our own.
Home advantage should make the difference but it's no forgone conclusion.

 

[Lufti]

Let's wait until Sunday tea time before we start crowing too loudly.
Then let's keep it just a tiny bit tight lipped until the end of the season
because we have a well established tradition of cocking things up, lasagna anyone?
And bottling it two seasons running.
And Arsenal have an irritating ability to make the most of what limited means they have.
We may or may not have overtaken them this season. I think we have
but their record under Wenger is impressive even if they haven't actually won anything.
I'd swap our record for theirs in the last decade or so.
Of course they're whistling in the dark, don't we all?

I'd certainly take Wilshere and Cazorla and possibly Arteta and Giroud over some of ours.
We don't need Walcott, we've express trains of our own.
Home advantage should make the difference but it's no forgone conclusion.

Why do you think our logo is a cockeral

 

[cjsimba]

Let's wait until Sunday tea time before we start crowing too loudly.
Then let's keep it just a tiny bit tight lipped until the end of the season
because we have a well established tradition of cocking things up, lasagna anyone?
And bottling it two seasons running.
And Arsenal have an irritating ability to make the most of what limited means they have.
We may or may not have overtaken them this season. I think we have
but their record under Wenger is impressive even if they haven't actually won anything.
I'd swap our record for theirs in the last decade or so.
Of course they're whistling in the dark, don't we all?

I'd certainly take Wilshere and Cazorla and possibly Arteta and Giroud over some of ours.
We don't need Walcott, we've express trains of our own.
Home advantage should make the difference but it's no forgone conclusion.

True Jimmy, but I think the point about how to view our overall improvement as a club still stands even if Arsenal do still come out on top at the end of the season

 

[dvdhopeful]

Can't believe Talksport hasn't signed Nicolas up, they'd be a perfect match

 

[JimmyG2]

Why do you think our logo is a cockeral

You missed 'crowing'

 

[dontcallme]

I hear it a lot. "The only reason Spurs are 3rd is because of how badly Chelsea and Arsenal are doing."

There's some truth behind it but fans of these teams should be concerned about why they are declining.

Chelsea got a billionaire just as they were going bankrupt. At the beginning they spent big money and hired the top available European manager to put it together and bring them the title. He did that, twice, but then the owner decided he was taking over. Since then he has continued to spend money but meddled at every step and firing managers at a rate that only QPR can compete with. They should be challenging for titles but unless Abramovich decides to stay but stop meddling, never going to happen, then they will continue to decline.

Imagine how good we'd be if Hazard had joined us instead.

Arsenal have had CL football every season since it was changed to the EPL getting 4 places. The extra money allowed them to consistently have a wage bill twice the size of ours. Fair enough they might not have been able to sustain competition with Utd and the billionaires but they had a massive advantage over us.

But they have failed to sustain their gap over us. They've bought too many duds in recent seasons and have a massive wage bill but not the quality to justify it. They can afford it but the likes of Senderos, Djourou, Bendtner, Chamakh, Gervinho etc haven't come good for them.

We've slowly improved within budget and mostly without CL money. Our fans have asked Levy to 'splash the cash' but the slow transition has us improving and in the long term as well as the short. Newcastle, West Ham, Villa and Leeds had short term improvement through short term plans and overspending. I'm so glad we didn't and still refuse to go down that route.

We are getting there and Arsenal have to accept that their own shortcomings have allowed us to compete with them.

 

[idontgetit]

I hear it a lot. "The only reason Spurs are 3rd is because of how badly Chelsea and Arsenal are doing."

There's some truth behind it but fans of these teams should be concerned about why they are declining.

Chelsea got a billionaire just as they were going bankrupt. At the beginning they spent big money and hired the top available European manager to put it together and bring them the title. He did that, twice, but then the owner decided he was taking over. Since then he has continued to spend money but meddled at every step and firing managers at a rate that only QPR can compete with. They should be challenging for titles but unless Abramovich decides to stay but stop meddling, never going to happen, then they will continue to decline.

Imagine how good we'd be if Hazard had joined us instead.

Arsenal have had CL football every season since it was changed to the EPL getting 4 places. The extra money allowed them to consistently have a wage bill twice the size of ours. Fair enough they might not have been able to sustain competition with Utd and the billionaires but they had a massive advantage over us.

But they have failed to sustain their gap over us. They've bought too many duds in recent seasons and have a massive wage bill but not the quality to justify it. They can afford it but the likes of Senderos, Djourou, Bendtner, Chamakh, Gervinho etc haven't come good for them.

We've slowly improved within budget and mostly without CL money. Our fans have asked Levy to 'splash the cash' but the slow transition has us improving and in the long term as well as the short. Newcastle, West Ham, Villa and Leeds had short term improvement through short term plans and overspending. I'm so glad we didn't and still refuse to go down that route.

We are getting there and Arsenal have to accept that their own shortcomings have allowed us to compete with them.

Very good post. I still want us to spank some money on a fucking striker though

 

[cjsimba]

I hear it a lot. "The only reason Spurs are 3rd is because of how badly Chelsea and Arsenal are doing."

There's some truth behind it but fans of these teams should be concerned about why they are declining.

Chelsea got a billionaire just as they were going bankrupt. At the beginning they spent big money and hired the top available European manager to put it together and bring them the title. He did that, twice, but then the owner decided he was taking over. Since then he has continued to spend money but meddled at every step and firing managers at a rate that only QPR can compete with. They should be challenging for titles but unless Abramovich decides to stay but stop meddling, never going to happen, then they will continue to decline.

Imagine how good we'd be if Hazard had joined us instead.

Arsenal have had CL football every season since it was changed to the EPL getting 4 places. The extra money allowed them to consistently have a wage bill twice the size of ours. Fair enough they might not have been able to sustain competition with Utd and the billionaires but they had a massive advantage over us.

But they have failed to sustain their gap over us. They've bought too many duds in recent seasons and have a massive wage bill but not the quality to justify it. They can afford it but the likes of Senderos, Djourou, Bendtner, Chamakh, Gervinho etc haven't come good for them.

We've slowly improved within budget and mostly without CL money. Our fans have asked Levy to 'splash the cash' but the slow transition has us improving and in the long term as well as the short. Newcastle, West Ham, Villa and Leeds had short term improvement through short term plans and overspending. I'm so glad we didn't and still refuse to go down that route.

We are getting there and Arsenal have to accept that their own shortcomings have allowed us to compete with them.

Yer I agree. The argument I hear though, and the one I tried to get across in the OP, is that it is even worse, it is 'I cant believe Spurs aren't further ahead than us given how bad we are' - which I have 2 grievances with: 1) it doesn't appreciate Tottenham's improvement over the years and where we have come from to get where we are (as you stated also), and 2) that Arsenal fans are wrong to assume they should be winning the title every year - in that sense you could argue that they are not really doing badly, they are doing as they should, it is just Arsenal fan's expectations are too high given what happened to their team in the 00's. By having these incorrect expectations it has the knock on effect of them not appreciating just how well we have actually done to be 4 points ahead of them

 

[dontcallme]

Yer I agree. The argument I here though, and the one I tried to get across in the OP, is that it is even worse, it is 'I cant believe Spurs aren't further ahead than us given how bad we are' - which I have 2 grievances with: 1) it doesn't appreciate Tottenham's improvement over the years and where we have come from to get where we are (as you stated also), and 2) that Arsenal fans are wrong to assume they should be winning the title every year - in that sense you could argue that they are not really doing badly, they are doing as they should, it is just Arsenal fan's expectations are too high given what happened to their team in the 00's. By having these incorrect expectations it has the knock on effect of them not appreciating just how well we have actually done to be 4 points ahead of them

I know what you're saying and I agree.

Some opposing fans never give others credit so I'm not concerned when our improvements are overlooked.

Arsenal now have the problem of huge expectations that they are in no way going to be able to do anytime soon.

With their current squad and manager I really can't see them challenging higher than 3rd. Wenger might decide to leave. The next manager for them could make or break them.

 

[cjsimba]

I know what you're saying and I agree.

Some opposing fans never give others credit so I'm not concerned when our improvements are overlooked.

Arsenal now have the problem of huge expectations that they are in no way going to be able to do anytime soon.

With their current squad and manager I really can't see them challenging higher than 3rd. Wenger might decide to leave. The next manager for them could make or break them.

Yer exactly, a lot of the reasons the fans and media are so quick to turn on Arsenal's supposed 'poor' season is they expect every season to be like the invincibles season. They treat that season as the norm and therefore anything worse is considered a disappointment. The reality is that teams evolve and and change and right now they are a club who should be challenging for 4th. This is exactly what they are doing at the moment so really there shouldn't be as much moaning. They have no divine right/expectation to be title winners every season. They are doing well for a side who should be challenging for 4th - and therefore, we should be seen as doing very well, given that we are above them at the moment.

As you say I couldn't care less what other fans think or think of us, I only get slightly irked when other fans' delusion spreads and starts to take away the plaudits that we as a club so massively deserve

 

[double0]

The argument doing the rounds now is we're a one man team (Bale) the rest of our players are shit mainly coming from Arsenal Fans...lol

When you throw back the argument that without Wilshere this season what does that make them, you get a look of confusion.

 

[monkeynick]

I don't think we have the belief that Arsenal have, they will expect to win tomorrow we will hope to. I guess that is born out of the last couple of decades and will take time to turn around