I keep hearing this argument....

[Spurs1960]

It is an irrelevance what Goners past and present say, so ignore it.

 

[Spurger King]

I don't think we have the belief that Arsenal have, they will expect to win tomorrow we will hope to. I guess that is born out of the last couple of decades and will take time to turn around

I'm not sure that's the case anymore. I think AVB comes across as having quite a grounded attitude - but also one that gives off an air of quiet confidence that I think is spreading through the team. He seems to have a matter of fact approach to matches, where the focus is on 3 points and how that benefits us in terms of how far ahead or behind other teams it would leave us.

In other words whilst he's obviously aware of the emotional side of the NLD, I fully expect him to help the team remain focused and professional.

 

[Lufti]

I hear it a lot. "The only reason Spurs are 3rd is because of how badly Chelsea and Arsenal are doing."

There's some truth behind it but fans of these teams should be concerned about why they are declining.

Chelsea got a billionaire just as they were going bankrupt. At the beginning they spent big money and hired the top available European manager to put it together and bring them the title. He did that, twice, but then the owner decided he was taking over. Since then he has continued to spend money but meddled at every step and firing managers at a rate that only QPR can compete with. They should be challenging for titles but unless Abramovich decides to stay but stop meddling, never going to happen, then they will continue to decline.

Imagine how good we'd be if Hazard had joined us instead.

Arsenal have had CL football every season since it was changed to the EPL getting 4 places. The extra money allowed them to consistently have a wage bill twice the size of ours. Fair enough they might not have been able to sustain competition with Utd and the billionaires but they had a massive advantage over us.

But they have failed to sustain their gap over us. They've bought too many duds in recent seasons and have a massive wage bill but not the quality to justify it. They can afford it but the likes of Senderos, Djourou, Bendtner, Chamakh, Gervinho etc haven't come good for them.

We've slowly improved within budget and mostly without CL money. Our fans have asked Levy to 'splash the cash' but the slow transition has us improving and in the long term as well as the short. Newcastle, West Ham, Villa and Leeds had short term improvement through short term plans and overspending. I'm so glad we didn't and still refuse to go down that route.

We are getting there and Arsenal have to accept that their own shortcomings have allowed us to compete with them.

Couldn't agree more. As you said with Hazard, Mata also chose Chelsea over us. Fair enough he won a CL with them (albeit the luckiest trophy win I've ever seen) but just imagine how good our squad would be if we had Hazard and Mata! Honestly think we should challenge for the title with them but instead they're in a team which is competing for a champions league place like we are.

 

[CJMurray]

Couldn't agree more. As you said with Hazard, Mata also chose Chelsea over us. Fair enough he won a CL with them (albeit the luckiest trophy win I've ever seen) but just imagine how good our squad would be if we had Hazard and Mata! Honestly think we should challenge for the title with them but instead they're in a team which is competing for a champions league place like we are.

There's no way we would have signed Hazard and Mata. If we had Mata we wouldn't have gone in for Hazard.

 

[Lufti]

There's no way we would have signed Hazard and Mata. If we had Mata we wouldn't have gone in for Hazard.

True but hypothetically. Mouth watering! To be fair, I actually rate Mata higher. Suppose Mata went to us, without Mata Chelsea probably wouldn't have won the champions league and Hazard probably wouldn't have chosen to go to them. They'd then not have qualified for the champions league and we would have extra funds from qualifying and maybe have a better striker! But then again, Redknapp would probably still be in a job.

And that whole paragraph is an example of why it's bad to look at something hypothetically !

 

[guiltyparty]

The argument doing the rounds now is we're a one man team (Bale) the rest of our players are shit mainly coming from Arsenal Fans...lol

When you throw back the argument that without Wilshere this season what does that make them, you get a look of confusion.

It's actually Walcott, statistically, who is their one-man team. They've been more reliant on him than we have Bale over the course of the whole season

 

[whitelightwhiteheat]

Same argument applies for us since 1995-ish then?

The only reason Arsenal and Chelsea have finished above us for the past decade or two is because we've been so shit for the majority of the time.

Well, if it works for them...

 

[onthetwo]

I don't think we have the belief that Arsenal have, they will expect to win tomorrow we will hope to. I guess that is born out of the last couple of decades and will take time to turn around

I don't agree. When they line up in the tunnel and eye each other up I suspect that our team can see that we are now better than them, man for man.

 

[RichSpur58]

Now I'm not one to get sucked in by other fans' biased views, opinions etc. but this argument really irks me for its lack of logical reasoning (I know logical thought is a tall order to expect from Arsenal fans, but its absence is still frustrating here). I keep hearing the same argument from arsenal fans when talking about Spurs's improvement (and Charlie Nicholas just said it on SSN*) - 'this is Arsene Wenger's worst ever team, we're playing so poorly, and Spurs are still only 4 points ahead, haha......'

What Arsenal fans fail to realise is that 10 years ago we were miles behind them in quality. Over the last 10 years we have gradually improved as they have gradually declined. Now we are fairly even and we are probably just edging in front of them. Their argument forgets this and tries to dismiss Tottenham's fantastic improvement by treating the 2 clubs as always having been equal, and therefore if Spurs are only just ahead when Arsenal are playing so badly, they cant be that good. Also, in reality, Arsenal aren't playing badly. They are no longer a title challenging team so you cant keep comparing their current team to the invincibles etc.. Now, they are a team fighting for 4th place, and that is exactly what they are doing at the moment. Therefore, Spurs, a team with similar present ambitions, being 4 points ahead is an achievement.....Their argument is like saying Usain Bolt is a terrible sprinter because he only beat his rival sprinter by 0.1 seconds when in reality his rival sprinter had a 5 second head start - they fail to appreciate where Spurs have come from to get where they are now, and fail to appreciate how they are no longer a title winning side who at the moment are 'just playing badly'.

Does anyone else often hear a similar argument?

*Charlie Nicholas - what a tit. Came out with the above argument, then (ok, jokingly - but still annoyingly) said the only way to stop Bale was to kick him, and (again jokingly) maintained Arsenal could be Bale's next club. The guy (like a lot of Arsenal fans) is rattled and scared of us. He desparately tried to claim Arsenal were still superior and laughed off Tottenham's improvement, before 'predicting' that Arsenal 'might just nick a draw' in the game.

Sorry but they do have a point. Also we havnt even finished above them yet.

 

[cjsimba]

Sorry but they do have a point. Also we havnt even finished above them yet.

I completely agree that they have a point in that it would be wrong for us to suggest we are superior to them yet. As you say we havent even finished above them yet. And it will take a few years of achieving the same to properly say we have turned the tide.

But imho I maintain that for them to mock our current small points advantage given their current so-called 'poor' team/season is to both overlook the massive progression/improvement of our team over the years to even achieve any sort of points advantage in the first place, whilst at the same time to misjudge the current expectations of their own team and what can and should be considered a 'poor' season for them - this seasons performance shouldnt be considered a poor season for them imo; they are a 4th place chasing team who are currently battling for 4th place and therefore doing well. To keep calling their seasons poor as they have not reached the heights of the invincibles era, is the same as us thinking we should be doing the double every year because we did it back in 60/61. I suppose you can think like that but i dont think it is realistic. You move with the times and change expectations accordingly. Therefore, my argument is if those expectations are changed in arsenal fans, their season no longer seems like a poor season, and our 'small points advantage' is not something so easily mocked.

Anyway as others have said, it is best to ignore other fans' opinions as theirs, like ours, will always be biased towards their own team.

 

[monkeynick]

I don't agree. When they line up in the tunnel and eye each other up I suspect that our team can see that we are now better than them, man for man.

The arsenal players will think the same thing, unfortunately they have a very good manager who'll get them believing they are world beaters, ours will too of course it's the job description.

My point was about the fans as well as players, we definitely don't expect to achieve great things, we want to but are just waiting for the enviable disaster and I think that can be felt in the stadium.

You only have to read forums like this and others to realise we have a little negative streak, actually I think my post is a good example!

 

[Misfit]

Same argument applies for us since 1995-ish then?

The only reason Arsenal and Chelsea have finished above us for the past decade or two is because we've been so shit for the majority of the time.

Well, if it works for them...

Haha. Like it.

 

[ItsBoris]

Their team this year is better than last year anyway. They lost RVP but they gained Cazorla, Podolski, Monreal, and Wilshere (effectively).

 

[Shanks]

It's not just Arsenal fans either.

It's been happening in the media all season - there season hasn't been any where near as poor as majority of people have made out.

Yes they lost RVP last year, but we lost Modric, VDV & King - probably our 3 best players.

They spend money on bloody decent players as well.

They are a point off us today if they win, that means 2nd place is achievable still.

It's a fucking joke, that they are that bad and we are that good, when it's actually very far from the truth. Chap who works for me is an Arsenal fan and we had this discussion on Friday, started with the usual, we are so poor.. when a few facts where given, he actually came around, and then admitted, that a few years ago, they were one of the best, now they are competing for 5/4/3 spot, it's hard for him to take.

Now that I understand a great more than just one season of shitness, which it really hasn't been.

He did admit that we have imp[roved loads over the years they have declined somewhat - going from the indescructables or what ever they were called to this, would make you pissed.

Lets be honest, we were never on par with them, Derby day meant much to us than it did to them for years.

 

[Harry_Snatch]

\this ain't arse's cheapest or lowest paid team though is it?

When you compare the cost in transfer fees and wages it's a joke that we are 4 points ahead. If Spurs had the budget they do it wouldn't even be close.

 

[worcestersauce]

Bollox to them, Man Utd are about twenty points clear of all of us and that's the gap we need to close. At the moment we are only four points clear of arsenal because arsenal are still a good team they are not poor and certainly not shit and we need to prove today that we are better.

 

[mattyspurs]

It's not just Arsenal fans either.

It's been happening in the media all season - there season hasn't been any where near as poor as majority of people have made out.

Yes they lost RVP last year, but we lost Modric, VDV & King - probably our 3 best players.

They spend money on bloody decent players as well.

They are a point off us today if they win, that means 2nd place is achievable still.

It's a fucking joke, that they are that bad and we are that good, when it's actually very far from the truth. Chap who works for me is an Arsenal fan and we had this discussion on Friday, started with the usual, we are so poor.. when a few facts where given, he actually came around, and then admitted, that a few years ago, they were one of the best, now they are competing for 5/4/3 spot, it's hard for him to take.

Now that I understand a great more than just one season of shitness, which it really hasn't been.

He did admit that we have imp[roved loads over the years they have declined somewhat - going from the indescructables or what ever they were called to this, would make you pissed.

It's not just Arsenal fans either.

It's been happening in the media all season - there season hasn't been any where near as poor as majority of people have made out.

Yes they lost RVP last year, but we lost Modric, VDV & King - probably our 3 best players.

They spend money on bloody decent players as well.

They are a point off us today if they win, that means 2nd place is achievable still.

It's a fucking joke, that they are that bad and we are that good, when it's actually very far from the truth. Chap who works for me is an Arsenal fan and we had this discussion on Friday, started with the usual, we are so poor.. when a few facts where given, he actually came around, and then admitted, that a few years ago, they were one of the best, now they are competing for 5/4/3 spot, it's hard for him to take.

Now that I understand a great more than just one season of shitness, which it really hasn't been.

He did admit that we have imp[roved loads over the years they have declined somewhat - going from the indescructables or what ever they were called to this, would make you pissed.

Lets be honest, we were never on par with them, Derby day meant much to us than it did to them for years.

.

I agree Jay. This shows how much things are changing, because they are now once again a lot more concerned about NLD derby day again, it has started to mean something to them again.

 

[double0]

The bottom line is Tottenham are improving, were not at the top by any means ManU for example are 20pts clear, but we now have in sight teams such as Liverpool Arsenal (Chelsea ManC (maybe)) having undertaken a clear gap in quality going back up 10 years on a lower overall budget, a point in squad development so far back where our averaged leauge position was top 13.

We've achieved nothing yet in terms of sustain CL qualification or trophies but now have an inner belief (strange thing to say coming for a Spurs Fan) that we can compete with some respect knowing that the quality gap has reduced.

Its taken about 8 seasons x amount of managers prudent planning from Levy and most importanly patience from knowledgable supporters that can see the bigger picture ie our financial postion and that quality gap just to have the above teams in our sights, so it's has been a steady progression that i much prefer rather than the instant gratification seen by ManC.... long may it continue.

Liverpool Arsenal Chelsea-bankrolled supports will just have to get over it, its not our problem, win lose or draw were on the right tracks.

 

[Misfit]

\this ain't arse's cheapest or lowest paid team though is it?

When you compare the cost in transfer fees and wages it's a joke that we are 4 points ahead. If Spurs had the budget they do it wouldn't even be close.

Yep. It's actually frightening the damage we'd do with another £100m a yr in turnover. Maybe the smug gits - not just assnal either - should just be grateful we don't. I hope to God we can somehow get this stadium done because even if we're not on a par with the biggest guns, we'll still be right there competing with them.

I guess we're a good example of why I still keep watching football (although I admit it's pretty much exclusively Spurs these days). It's not all about the bottom line.

 

[Harry_Snatch]

Yep. It's actually frightening the damage we'd do with another £100m a yr in turnover. Maybe the smug gits - not just assnal either - should just be grateful we don't. I hope to God we can somehow get this stadium done because even if we're not on a par with the biggest guns, we'll still be right there competing with them.

I guess we're a good example of why I still keep watching football (although I admit it's pretty much exclusively Spurs these days). It's not all about the bottom line.

I agree with all of the first paragraph apart from the bit about the stadium. I just don't believe the stadium will have any affect on the funds available to improve the squad. Still have to admit for all the disillusion and disappointment with the lack of ambition in the striker search, the club and AVB have worked miracles with the funds available.