Jose Mourinho

[shelfboy68]

we hammered them in the first half, 2nd half we came out and played as though the game was over.

West ham was much the same.

 

[Dougal]

More revisionism:

Actual sequence of events:

1. Dele does something Mourinho doesn't like.
2. Mourinho shouts at him during the match - something that all managers do to all their players at some point.
3. Media picks up on single incident due to their fixation on the Dele situation - CLinton Morrison mentions it in the BBC coverage. Not reported anywhere else and in contrast to them or any other broadcaster mentioning the square root of fuck-all about any other manager anywhere else shouting at their players during a match which happens all the time.
4. Media asks Mourinho about said incident, no doubt to try and make another story from it.
5. Mourinho answers that he was upset when he shouted at Dele. The question came from the media, he didn't prompt it himself.

SC revisionism analysis.:

Mourinho has dug out Dele in public.

What makes it even funnier is that we're all so keen to put down the media for their bias, but when it suits our agenda, we parrot the lines almost verbatim.

In my defence I very rarely listen to Mourinho interviews, in good times or in bad, as it distracts from what is actually going on on the pitch. The Dele incident case in point.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

we hammered them in the first half, 2nd half we came out and played as though the game was over.

And that's an important aspect for me. It's the absoluteness of the soaking pressure period. It last until the opponent scores. I think it must be switched on and off and on and off until we score, not be used exclusively until we concede.

 

[rez9000]

OK, I agree to a point. Not talking about this specific match but about 33% of our PL matches this season - I believe that somebody as Mourinho, who is all about calculating the tiniest margin, should know that a one goal lead isn't worth much, and how to guide the team from the side line to a 2 goal lead.

I'm not debating that, old chap. That's not at issue. I'm disappointed in our recent performances too and hope that Mourinho can find the solution.

What I'm highlighting is the intellectual dishonesty that some are using to bolster their opinions. There are some on here who want to change history to suit their agenda (whatever that agenda may be).

But the truth is we didn't fuck up against Newcastle - it was an absolute travesty of a decision that robbed us of two points

We destroyed Man U. There have been multiple sendings-off this season in other games, so how come every single one didn't end up in a 6-1 battering. Isn't it a truism in football that when a team has a player sent off, it can actually make it harder to score against them? So how do we reconcile that with the destruction we handed out at Old Trafford? But people are treating that as it it was accidental and happened despite Mourinho rather than because of him. They can't have it both ways - either he's responsible for all the results, bad and good, or he's responsible for none. I the former, then he should be given credit as well as detraction, if the latter, there's no basis to criticise him at all.

And the Dele situation is being blown out of all proportion, especially by certain quarters (who I have no doubt will give me a Spam rating for this), whereas the truth of the matter is that shouting at players happens in every game, by every manager. It's part of the game. But when it comes to Mourinho it's somehow some kind of vendetta against Dele, a player who has been roundly slated on this board, until the opportunity to lambast the manager comes about, at which point he's been elevated to a martyred saint.

Again, people can criticise all they like. That's part of every football forum. But it should be done honestly.

And likewise, people can hate as much as they like. But again, it should be done honestly. Not twisting facts to justify the dislike.

 

[rez9000]

we hammered them in the first half, 2nd half we came out and played as though the game was over.

Makes no difference. They got lucky. We didn't. But that's not down to the manager. Is it beyond the realms of possibility that maybe, just maybe, Newcastle changed their way of playing to nullify us? And is it outside the realms of possibility that that was successful?

We act as if the only thing that's a factor in our results is us. We seem to forget that there's another team out there who also have an objective. And sometimes it works.

No manager will get it right 100% of the time. But to suggest that Mourinho was at fault for two back-to-back bullshit decisions is not just dishonest, it's absurd.

 

[rez9000]

Lol. Your a funny guy. You need to change your posts from revisionist to rezvisionist.

OK, buddy. Sorry (again) for triggering you.

 

[Casparian]

Loving the revisionism in this thread, most especially how an emphatic destruction of Man U is being described as essentially accidental.

FML!

Knew it would happen when we hit a rough patch, worse thing to ever happen was Martial getting sent off. Reality is we dominated them so hard with 11 v 11 we missed them yelping the safety word. Oh and St Bruno was hooked at halftime due to N'Dombele rinsing him to the point he literally stopped trying to tackle Tanguy.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

I'm not debating that, old chap. That's not at issue. I'm disappointed in our recent performances too and hope that Mourinho can find the solution.

No manager will get it right 100% of the time. But to suggest that Mourinho was at fault for two back-to-back bullshit decisions is not just dishonest, it's absurd.

I fundamentally agree with your reasonable view.
However, it's also a part of football. An opponent "getting lucky" is inherent in the game. That's part of why it's interesting. But I thought somebody like Mourinho knew that and loved that and more importantly loved how to guide the team in-game to be one step ahead of fortune and the way fortune swings. Not all the time. But more often.

 

[Blake Griffin]

Makes no difference. They got lucky. We didn't. But that's not down to the manager. Is it beyond the realms of possibility that maybe, just maybe, Newcastle changed their way of playing to nullify us? And is it outside the realms of possibility that that was successful?

We act as if the only thing that's a factor in our results is us. We seem to forget that there's another team out there who also have an objective. And sometimes it works.

No manager will get it right 100% of the time. But to suggest that Mourinho was at fault for two back-to-back bullshit decisions is not just dishonest, it's absurd.

it does make a difference as any slice of bad luck is a non factor if you put the game to bed. take the southampton game as a counter-example. at 2-1 up we carried on playing and tore them to shreds, meaning that the ridiculous doherty handball decision at the end meant nothing. had we bunkered in and shut up shop then we'd have dropped yet more points, bad luck or not. newcastle did nothing to change the flow of the game, we were just happy to play at their level for 45 minutes and see out a narrow win, that time though we paid for it. just like we did at palace when we were by far the better team at 0-0 and 1-1 and just like we did yesterday. some times we will get away with it but more often than not if you sit on a one goal lead and invite pressure then eventually you're going to concede.

 

[14/04/91]

it does make a difference as any slice of bad luck is a non factor if you put the game to bed. take the southampton game as a counter-example. at 2-1 up we carried on playing and tore them to shreds, meaning that the ridiculous doherty handball decision at the end meant nothing. had we bunkered in and shut up shop then we'd have dropped yet more points, bad luck or not. newcastle did nothing to change the flow of the game, we were just happy to play at their level for 45 minutes and see out a narrow win, that time though we paid for it. just like we did at palace when we were by far the better team at 0-0 and 1-1 and just like we did yesterday. some times we will get away with it but more often than not if you sit on a one goal lead and invite pressure then eventually you're going to concede.

Spot on. And given our inability to defend set pieces, the law of numbers tells you that we’re likely to get undone once during 90 minutes.

No coincidence that this style worked against City, Arsenal and, to a lesser extent, Chelsea. Possession based teams that don’t force many set pieces.

 

[rez9000]

I fundamentally agree with your reasonable view.
However, it's also a part of football. An opponent "getting lucky" is inherent in the game. That's part of why it's interesting. But I thought somebody like Mourinho knew that and loved that and more importantly loved how to guide the team in-game to be one step ahead of fortune and the way fortune swings. Not all the time. But more often.

Of course it is. You're absolutely right. I also agree that sitting on a 1-0 score is not a good tactic. But that's where it gets sticky:

I don't believe that Mourinho, or any manager, sets up to sit on a 1-0 lead. I think his overall tactic at the moment is that the defence isn't as strong as it can be and so he is sacrificing attacking strength to ensure that we stay strong at the back. Whether it's pretty or entertaining or not, whether it's been working or not, it still makes sense. The theory is that if you're hard to score against, if you can keep the opposition at bay, then you remain in the game.

However, there are many factors at work in every football game. The whole point of management is to try and calculate for those factors as best as one can. But that doesn't mean a) that every factor can be calculated for; b) that every calculation will be right and successful; and c) that the calculations by the other side won't have an effect.

Now, I'm not a football tactician, but what I've described above with regard factors in a situation apply everywhere. They're true of every complex situation.

But a lot of the invective we've seen suggests that Mourinho should be able to 100% of the time affect a), b) and c) in every situation and when he doesn't, that means he's bad at the job.

 

[rez9000]

it does make a difference as any slice of bad luck is a non factor if you put the game to bed. take the southampton game as a counter-example. at 2-1 up we carried on playing and tore them to shreds, meaning that the ridiculous doherty handball decision at the end meant nothing. had we bunkered in and shut up shop then we'd have dropped yet more points, bad luck or not. newcastle did nothing to change the flow of the game, we were just happy to play at their level for 45 minutes and see out a narrow win, that time though we paid for it. just like we did at palace when we were by far the better team at 0-0 and 1-1 and just like we did yesterday. some times we will get away with it but more often than not if you sit on a one goal lead and invite pressure then eventually you're going to concede.

You're still not getting it. And you're still equating the second half approach with them being given two bullshit decisions. You can't force a goalkeeper into making 10-12 saves, you can't legislate for a referee giving bullshit decisions. You put out your pieces and they do the best they can. You can't fully legislate for what the other side are going to do.

This is basic. It's not even complicated. The fact that people still pull this out is the epitome of absurdity.

Here's the challenge: show me evidence that Mourinho instructed his team to sit on the 1-0 lead against Newcastle. Direct evidence, mind - no supposition or conjecture. If you can do that, I'll happily concede the point.

 

[Typical Spurs]

There's 3 camps:

The Jose haters: those who regardless of where we are in the table, will hate him. Like when we spent a couple of weeks top and were picking up good results, the predictable ones constantly moaned.

The Jose lovers: those who regardless of us defending 1-0 leads against average sides thus letting them back in the game, they will blame anyone but Jose.

The pragmatic ones: those who recognise when we're winning games and getting results, thought it may not be pretty they recognise its a results game so will take it. But will also recognise when we hit bad form and quite rightly blame the negative tactics.

I'm pragmatic, or at least try to be. We could be shit every week and scrape results but if it meant we actually win something I don't care. But our recent form is shite. 2 points from 12 isn't good enough. Nor is defending 1-0 leads away to average teams. Not last 10 minutes defending either, we're talking whole halves.

As much as I've championed Jose and still think it'll come good, he's to blame for some recent results. Period. If Dele is to blame for a stupid flick which leads to Stoke scoring, then Jose is to blame for the second half yesterday and our performance once we went 1 up vs Palace. He's the manager. I've banged on about how great his in game management is compared to Poch, but he's responsible to not allow us to literally sit with 2 deep banks penned in for 45 minutes like last night.

The way Jose sets us up means if we don't get results against teams we know we're stronger than, there are literally zero positives to take.

I think if we win our next 2 this blip will be in the past. I'd love us to really take it to Fulham and Leeds. I just worry that Leeds will really go for it meaning we have 2 banks of 4 at home against a side that's just come up from the Championship.

Come on Jose and come on Spurs !!

 

[shelfboy68]

There's 3 camps:

The Jose haters: those who regardless of where we are in the table, will hate him. Like when we spent a couple of weeks top and were picking up good results, the predictable ones constantly moaned.

The Jose lovers: those who regardless of us defending 1-0 leads against average sides thus letting them back in the game, they will blame anyone but Jose.

The pragmatic ones: those who recognise when we're winning games and getting results, thought it may not be pretty they recognise its a results game so will take it. But will also recognise when we hit bad form and quite rightly blame the negative tactics.

I'm pragmatic, or at least try to be. We could be shit every week and scrape results but if it meant we actually win something I don't care. But our recent form is shite. 2 points from 12 isn't good enough. Nor is defending 1-0 leads away to average teams. Not last 10 minutes defending either, we're talking whole halves.

As much as I've championed Jose and still think it'll come good, he's to blame for some recent results. Period. If Dele is to blame for a stupid flick which leads to Stoke scoring, then Jose is to blame for the second half yesterday and our performance once we went 1 up vs Palace. He's the manager. I've banged on about how great his in game management is compared to Poch, but he's responsible to not allow us to literally sit with 2 deep banks penned in for 45 minutes like last night.

The way Jose sets us up means if we don't get results against teams we know we're stronger than, there are literally zero positives to take.

I think if we win our next 2 this blip will be in the past. I'd love us to really take it to Fulham and Leeds. I just worry that Leeds will really go for it meaning we have 2 banks of 4 at home against a side that's just come up from the Championship.

Come on Jose and come on Spurs !!

Don't be surprised if the side that has just come up from the championship beats us.

 

[Timberwolf]

We could've easily drawn all 3 of those games and paid them all far too much respect. West Brom had a shot skim the post at 0-0, Burnley had a great chance to equalise and we had to pull it out of the bag late against Brighton. Fair play, we got the points, but they were all 60/40 games, rather than 90/10 when Chelsea have played the equivalent teams recently. If we keep playing negatively against weaker teams eventually the pendulum will swing the other way and suddenly all the same people who are bumming Mourinho for edging marginal wins will suddenly start moaning about his negative tactics.

I have no issue with us grinding out a 0-0 draw against Chelsea and think we defended brilliantly today. I do, however, have an issue with us playing 2 CDMs and a slow RB against the worst teams in the league.

Said this a month ago and got funny ratings and called weird because I wasn't falling over myself to praise everything about Jose when we were on top.

I'm actually not against Mourinho's pragmatic style per-se, and I think we'll pull through this difficult period. We had a terrible spell post-lockdown, culminating with awful performances against Sheffield United and Bournemouth, but we pulled through and went on an excellent run. I think the same could happen here. Just find it annoying that you get shit for saying something remotely critical on here when we're in a purple patch then a month later everyone is bitching about the same tactics not working (although something does clearly have to change against the mid-table sides).

I suppose it's par for the course on a football forum but the way people swing madly back and forth between "Jose is the messiah" and "Jose is a negative bellend" is a bit ridiculous. Not long ago we were 2nd in the table after beating City, Arsenal and were inches from beating Liverpool so I think a little patience is due here. It's not pretty to watch but literally 3 weeks ago no-one on here gave a solitary shit about our style of play cos we were winning, so it's all a bit hypocritical to me.

You gotta either accept the Jose style and roll with the punches (cos there will be some rough patches) or just accept that you don't like this style of football and want a different manager. I might not enjoy watching us too much at the moment, but I'm willing to suffer through matches like yesterday if having him as our manager increases our chances of winning a cup over the next season or two.

 

[Chimbo!]

it does make a difference as any slice of bad luck is a non factor if you put the game to bed. take the southampton game as a counter-example. at 2-1 up we carried on playing and tore them to shreds, meaning that the ridiculous doherty handball decision at the end meant nothing. had we bunkered in and shut up shop then we'd have dropped yet more points, bad luck or not. newcastle did nothing to change the flow of the game, we were just happy to play at their level for 45 minutes and see out a narrow win, that time though we paid for it. just like we did at palace when we were by far the better team at 0-0 and 1-1 and just like we did yesterday. some times we will get away with it but more often than not if you sit on a one goal lead and invite pressure then eventually you're going to concede.

Spot on. The question is why we keep on doing it? Mourinho says that’s not what he’s telling the players. He says it’s because they are not able to but are our players that inferior? And is it a team issue or a central midfield problem? Are our opponents just better coached at maintaining the ball and building pressure? Or are there fundamental personnel issues that prevent us playing any strategy well enough to win most games? If we maintain possession, we can’t create. And if we aim to counter, we can’t play out often enough to reduce pressure.

I don’t know but I do know Mourinho is paid huge sums to not just know but also find a solution. More than a year in, he hasn’t. That doesn’t mean he’s doing a bad job (it’s probably par) but it also shows he’s perhaps not as great as everyone thinks. He’s a good manager who timed his moves well earlier in his career. He can still succeed here But he’ll need more time than he ever has before. He’s in unchartered territory.

 

[JCRD]

There's 3 camps:

The Jose haters: those who regardless of where we are in the table, will hate him. Like when we spent a couple of weeks top and were picking up good results, the predictable ones constantly moaned.

The Jose lovers: those who regardless of us defending 1-0 leads against average sides thus letting them back in the game, they will blame anyone but Jose.

The pragmatic ones: those who recognise when we're winning games and getting results, thought it may not be pretty they recognise its a results game so will take it. But will also recognise when we hit bad form and quite rightly blame the negative tactics.

I'm pragmatic, or at least try to be. We could be shit every week and scrape results but if it meant we actually win something I don't care. But our recent form is shite. 2 points from 12 isn't good enough. Nor is defending 1-0 leads away to average teams. Not last 10 minutes defending either, we're talking whole halves.

As much as I've championed Jose and still think it'll come good, he's to blame for some recent results. Period. If Dele is to blame for a stupid flick which leads to Stoke scoring, then Jose is to blame for the second half yesterday and our performance once we went 1 up vs Palace. He's the manager. I've banged on about how great his in game management is compared to Poch, but he's responsible to not allow us to literally sit with 2 deep banks penned in for 45 minutes like last night.

The way Jose sets us up means if we don't get results against teams we know we're stronger than, there are literally zero positives to take.

I think if we win our next 2 this blip will be in the past. I'd love us to really take it to Fulham and Leeds. I just worry that Leeds will really go for it meaning we have 2 banks of 4 at home against a side that's just come up from the Championship.

Come on Jose and come on Spurs !!

Im not a Jose lover and im not a Jose hater - im a Spurs lover.

Do you need to play in that way in order to win something? I dont think anyone wants a gung ho style Ossie Ardiles type approach but you also really dont need to sit back on a 1-0 for 90 minutes or adopt that approach. Now; whether thats Jose teling them or as he is saying, the players are choosing to do it for themselves then that needs to be answered. What I find interesting though is when we beat Arsenal he came out and said after the game why should we attack in the second half? (im paraphrasing) well i wouldnt put it past him saying the same things aginst Palace and Wolves

Youre right, we win our next two games and we hopefully grow in confidence again and take it from there but the whole sitting back is not going to work on a long term scenario

 

[shelfboy68]

Said this a month ago and got funny ratings and called weird because I wasn't falling over myself to praise everything about Jose when we were on top.

I'm actually not against Mourinho's pragmatic style per-se, and I think we'll pull through this difficult period. We had a terrible spell post-lockdown, culminating with awful performances against Sheffield United and Bournemouth, but we pulled through and went on an excellent run. I think the same could happen here. Just find it annoying that you get shit for saying something remotely critical on here when we're in a purple patch then a month later everyone is bitching about the same tactics not working (although something does clearly have to change against the mid-table sides).

I suppose it's par for the course on a football forum but the way people swing madly back and forth between "Jose is the messiah" and "Jose is a negative bellend" is a bit ridiculous. Not long ago we were 2nd in the table after beating City, Arsenal and were inches from beating Liverpool so I think a little patience is due here. It's not pretty to watch but literally 3 weeks ago no-one on here gave a solitary shit about our style of play cos we were winning, so it's all a bit hypocritical to me.

You gotta either accept the Jose style and roll with the punches (cos there will be some rough patches) or just accept that you don't like this style of football and want a different manager. I might not enjoy watching us too much at the moment, but I'm willing to suffer through matches like yesterday if having him as our manager increases our chances of winning a cup over the next season or two.

Personally I have no real problem with it but we have to do more than sitting on 1-0 leads for too long.
Need mix our game up a bit get in front by a couple of goals then defend solidly, but we drop deep for too long and ask for trouble.

 

[handsomecake]

Hes trying to make safety boots with Ballet slippers.

He used to have Essien,Makelele, Obi Mikel, Carvalho, Lassana, Terry, Drogba,Costa.

Harry Winks , Bambi on ice Sanchez, and Moussa "wont go up for a header" Sissoko are not the men he needs in the trenches.


I'll tell you what though, hes lucky there aren't fans. There would be howls of derision at substitutions like ndombeles the other night (rightly or wrongly). The mood is shite at the moment but it would be way worse.

 

[OPModric]

Pretty reasonable thoughts and figures on Mourinho from a neutral fan.

This is why I try to stay positive for a few weeks more. If (big IF) we can take maybe 10p the remainig four games and advance to a final we are in a really good position.