Player Watch Player Watch: Destiny Udogie

[mil1lion]

The problem is with these examples is they only ever really get used when this debate comes up. I’ve honestly never heard anyone describe Terry, Nadal, or Dechambeau as “beasts” before. I very rarely, if ever hear about white athletes being described as beasts. And no, a WWE wrestler acting out the role of a beast doesn’t count.

The study that’s been mentioned (and ignored by people in here) shows that black sports people are overwhelmingly labelled using descriptors which highlight their physicality, whereas in white athletes, it’s intelligence and skill that are more likely to be highlighted.

I find beast in particular to be pretty dehumanising, you’re boiling a person down to animalistic terms and only focusing on their brute force. When it’s been pointed out by several black posters, using calm language and showing genuine research that’s been done into it, I find it more than a little disconcerting the way people hand waive and bury their heads in the sand over this.

Interesting that this is taken in a negative way. Like you can compliment a player on their physicality but rather than take the compliment you would question whether that means they're not also intelligent or skillful etc. That would be like someone calling you funny but assuming they must think you're ugly and stupid then. It's ok for people not to like the phrase but talking like people have to feel the same way is silly. Nobody is burying their heads in the sand over it just because they're not seeing the term in a negative light. It's down to the person whether to read something in a positive or negative way. I would think it was obvious the poster said it as a positive compliment. It's like the word Yid, some will never like it but I'm sure they know the intent behind it so they're not going to tell people not to use it. We're all a community on here but we don't have to all agree to what is right or wrong to say. The fact that the poster was criticized for it was unnecessary. I've seen phrases like ignorance as well as the idea of burying heads in the sand like it's conclusive that the word is wrong and we should all accept it. Some don't like it which is fair enough but there's no need to try and make people feel guilty when they don't feel the same way.

 

[BorjeSpurs]

Udogie, back on topic, is the best 20-year old left back I think I have seen. His potential long term looks really impressive based on both his physical and what looks like a really knowledgeable approach, regardless what labels we put on him.

Regarding the "Beast" discussion. I get that some would hear the term and feel it is derogatory, but being a 5'4" white, 60+ year old male, I chuckle when the younger generation (including a African-American 6'3" former American football player) call me a beast because of the way I shoot billiards. Lots of labels can be derogatory used in the wrong way. I didn't necessarily like being called Smalls when I was playing football (soccer), but as you can see from my name on this site, I chose to embrace it instead of letting it get to me. My suggestion is to always take the label in the more positive way until someone shows by other actions that they meant in negatively. At least then, they can't fall back on the "you took it the wrong way" argument.

Well at least we got ‘back on topic’ for 25% of your post

 

[punkisback]

Interesting that this is taken in a negative way. Like you can compliment a player on their physicality but rather than take the compliment you would question whether that means they're not also intelligent or skillful etc. That would be like someone calling you funny but assuming they must think you're ugly and stupid then. It's ok for people not to like the phrase but talking like people have to feel the same way is silly. Nobody is burying their heads in the sand over it just because they're not seeing the term in a negative light. It's down to the person whether to read something in a positive or negative way. I would think it was obvious the poster said it as a positive compliment. It's like the word Yid, some will never like it but I'm sure they know the intent behind it so they're not going to tell people not to use it. We're all a community on here but we don't have to all agree to what is right or wrong to say. The fact that the poster was criticized for it was unnecessary. I've seen phrases like ignorance as well as the idea of burying heads in the sand like it's conclusive that the word is wrong and we should all accept it. Some don't like it which is fair enough but there's no need to try and make people feel guilty when they don't feel the same way.

Ok yeah I believe obviously it is meant as a compliment. The study was actually about how significant the frequency of descriptive between white and black players were used. Black players reduced to physicality and white players praised for intelligence and work rate. And how black players are prejudged and discussed because of this. One example they have was Lewandovski Vs Senegals defence. The tv pundits were saying that Lewandovski skill and intelligence would outsmart the Senegalese defence, but that the Senegalese had pace and power in their side. When the truth of the matter was that Lewandovski was bigger and faster than those players and beat them on physicality.
I also remember Souness talking about Ndombele, obviously having not done his homework saying that he would bring pace and power to the spurs midfield when coming but but lacking some technical finesse. Again souness has prejudged him, when we all know Tanguys weakness was athleticism.
it sort of stops you appreciating players for what they were rather than what people think they should be. Toure was one of the finest ball playing and goal scoring midfielders in the game, but again reduced to his physical traits.
Even myself at times I’ve experienced it when being selected for football, asked to play on the wing or on top when I’m really more the bastard love child of Atouba and Michael Brow.

 

[JerryGarcia]

I’m really more the bastard love child of Atouba and Michael Brown.

A truly frightening proposition

 

[rabbikeane]

We all agree that Ndombele is not a beast right? Right?
Well, maybe he's in hibernation.

 

[the yid]

Spoke to my 17yo and his mate about this as they used it to describe a white player they played against on the weekend. Fact is they couldn't understand the issue at all and had no connection to the word in a racist way. Like many words, the usage and perceived meaning/intention has changed over the generations and his understanding as a teenager of how it's being used is basically this.

From the urban dictionary......

Beast is a slang term that can be used as a compliment or an insult. As a compliment, it is used to describe a remarkable person with enviable confidence, an imposing appearance, a set of impressive abilities, or a list of achievements1. As an insult, it is used to describe a rude person or someone behaving in a crude, savage, or horrible way2. In some regions, it is used to mean "great", "excellent", or "powerful"34.

As a 33 year old this is exactly how I know it. Also known it used in place of ugly. I've been called it to as an obese man. Never ever racist.

 

[Pochemon94]

but as you can see from my name on this site, I chose to embrace it instead of letting it get to me.

my nickname as a kid at jewish camp was nubbins (due to having a tiny legs, hit a growth spurt at an older age), stuck with me until I lost contact with a lot of the kids when I went to college and honestly kinda miss being called it hahahahaha

 

[bradfordspur]

My take on this discussion:

No matter what you say, someone, somewhere will search hard and long to find a way to be offended. Seems this is now normal in the anti-social media world we currently live in.

 

[Tucker]

Interesting that this is taken in a negative way. Like you can compliment a player on their physicality but rather than take the compliment you would question whether that means they're not also intelligent or skillful etc. That would be like someone calling you funny but assuming they must think you're ugly and stupid then. It's ok for people not to like the phrase but talking like people have to feel the same way is silly.

But you’re making the mistake of thinking this is an individual issue. It’s not an isolated case of someone focusing on one persons physical attributes. It’s a full blown study that shows that black sports people are overwhelmingly praised on their physical attributes alone, while white sports people are overwhelmingly praised for their intelligence and skill.

It’s not a conscious thing, and as others have gone into detail several times, it’s not about intent or accusing anyone of being racist. It’s about considering our language and being thoughtful in how we view people and speak about them.

Nobody is burying their heads in the sand over it just because they're not seeing the term in a negative light. It's down to the person whether to read something in a positive or negative way.

There are plenty of posts in this thread simply dismissing the idea out of hand, and ignoring the reasoning behind it. I’d include some of your posts in that. You’ve said several times that the intent behind “beast” isn’t derogatory, but this isn’t about intent, and the people in here who’ve raised the issue have made that clear a number of times, yet still we are hearing people say things like “I mean it in a nice way” “it’s a compliment” “people are desperate to see offence in everything these days.” That’s what I mean by people burying their heads in the sand.

 

[HildoSpur]

Good luck to the kid tonight. Full debut for Italy against England at Wembley must just a total dream for him. Hope he has a great match.

 

[spurs mental]

Hope he kicks Kane in the willy.

 

[MichaelPawson]

Some don't like it which is fair enough but there's no need to try and make people feel guilty when they don't feel the same way.

Once again, I'd like to respectfully ask you to consider who you are choosing to have empathy for in this conversation: a group of people for whom coded language represents a wider pattern of discrimination and prejudice they experience in society, or someone who got mildly scolded on a message board. Because that's really all that happened in the latter case. No one got "cancelled", no one got fired from their job or shunned by the wider community. They were just told to be mindful of what words they were using- to treat this like it's some sort of punishment is baffling to me.

 

[worcestersauce]

Italy's first goal in no small part coming from Destiny's run carrying the ball out of defence and connecting with the forward line.

 

[cjsimba]

Been superb so far. And unlucky not to score.

 

[philll]

Wonderful bit of work by Destiny there.

 

[worcestersauce]

Almost got himself a goal for italy's second so unlucky, terrific save from Pickford.

 

[SUIYHA]

How TF did we sign this guy??

 

[BorjeSpurs]

How TF did we sign this guy??

 

[Misfit]

There's no doubt about, this summer we signed the spine - and then some! - of a team capable of competing for the biggest trophies out there in the not too distant.

This guy is going to be one of the very best of his generation. He's already very blood good going forwards or at the back and just barely out his teens.

 

[worcestersauce]

Zola saying Udogie has been fantastic particularly on the first goal, nobody else seemed to mention it but he was.