Player Watch - Tanguy Ndombele

[HedgieSpur]

His last two outings in the league were Wolves and Burnley - how does he merit time on the pitch after those performances?

Just so Im clear, you are suggesting that a professional football club centres it Performance Management approach on 2 games?

 

[Deleted member 27995]

Just so Im clear, you are suggesting that a professional football club centres it Performance Management approach on 2 games?

I'm asking why he merits time on the pitch when he looked as bad as he did (those two games being how you'd base your decision making as it's what you have to hand)

In a Spurs shirt I think he's had the grand total of 3 games where he performed anywhere near you'd expect him to. Other than that he's been poor.

He was bought as central mid (an eight) and now he's a ten because ... ?

 

[E17yid]

You ignored my point about him needing time to adjust in a new league. It’s very common that players take time.

His fitness didn’t seem to be where it needed to be. Sure. But Mourinho has said he is happy with how he has trained over confinement and Christ, that was a long time ago now that he was puffing. He needs minutes to acclimatise and the bottom line is treating him like this is self-evidently not getting the best out of him.

So if we’re not getting the best out of Ndombele then there are three possibilities...

1) it is not possible to get the best out of him. He’s unmanageable and a Ballotelli-type character.

2) it is not possible to get peak Ndombele now but by managing him this way we will see peak Ndombele in the future.

3) a different approach is required.

2 is a possibility. No one can say for sure. But he doesn’t have a great record this decade at coaxing the best out of players. He did with Hazard. But since then, and especially at United, he struggled, especially with bigger names.

I think a different approach is required and he is an arm round the shoulder kind of player who needs minutes and patience.

We will see...

Yeah, this more or less my view and I think quite common with super talented players (which Ndombele clearly is). 10-20 years ago, sure, the culture waa tougher and coaches/managers were more boss like but over the last 5-10 years you see a lot more managers adopt a more friendly arm round you approach for top players. Don’t get me wrong, your Peps, Poch’s, Klopps etc etc aren’t going to take players taking the piss but I think you’ve got to use carrot and stick and in some cases a little more carrot than stick.

 

[HedgieSpur]

I'm asking why he merits time on the pitch when he looked as bad as he did (those two games being how you'd base your decision making as it's what you have to hand)

In a Spurs shirt I think he's had the grand total of 3 games where he performed anywhere near you'd expect him to. Other than that he's been poor.

He was bought as central mid (an eight) and now he's a ten because ... ?

If he's had, by your own assertion, 3 games were he's performed well and 2 games were he's performed abjectly (Wolves & Burnley) then he's got 1 game in the bank surely?? (lol)

I must have missed the proclamation that he was brought in as an "8" but irrespective of that, I was asked my opinion as to where he should play and I gave my opinion. I base this on a players ATTRIBUTES rather than be coloured by my own personal bias (and boy do I have many!)

Anyway, no harm no foul. We can just agree to disagree.

 

[Deleted member 27995]

If he's had, by your own assertion, 3 games were he's performed well and 2 games were he's performed abjectly (Wolves & Burnley) then he's got 1 game in the bank surely?? (lol)

I must have missed the proclamation that he was brought in as an "8" but irrespective of that, I was asked my opinion as to where he should play and I gave my opinion. I base this on a players ATTRIBUTES rather than be coloured by my own personal bias (and boy do I have many!)

Anyway, no harm no foul. We can just agree to disagree.

Yes, oh well.

 

[HedgieSpur]

I would also add that my view isn't a dig at Jose tbh. All managers have their likes, dislikes and blind spots...as an example, Pep seemingly cannot find a way to get Sane (who I think is fantastic) into the team.

Time will tell whether Tanguy will be a Hazard (i.e. Jose works with and moulds into a great player) or a Salah/De Bruyne (where he clearly fucked up)...or indeed a Taraabt!!

 

[spursfan77]

I choose to look at it the other way. I think he's capable of more than sitting on a bench. I think he's capable of more than being treated disrespectfully by manager and fans. As for "overwhelming evidence"...you can't have it both ways. He's barely played and yet you cite "overwhelming evidence".

Personally, I'd play him as a 10. I think he has great ability to see a pass, he's very skilful, can shoot and can dribble also. He's also clearly shed some weight and looks much leaner than when he first came (this is purportedly the guy who is "lazy" and "doesn't care". I'd rotate him with Alli. Maybe start with bringing him on with 20-30 mins left and take it from there.

As I said, Jose has the right to do what he pleases, but my own opinion is that Tanguy has shown enough to warrant some time on the pitch.

I’m not sure how the other players would take that.

He may well come good once we get a defensive midfielder in to do his dirty work. If we could get a good bid for him in the summer I’d consider it. I just don’t think he’s the right fit for us. Anyway, I doubt a club will see his performances and bid for him anyway. He’s more of a problem than a plus for us at the moment.

 

[spursfan77]

I would also add that my view isn't a dig at Jose tbh. All managers have their likes, dislikes and blind spots...as an example, Pep seemingly cannot find a way to get Sane (who I think is fantastic) into the team.

Time will tell whether Tanguy will be a Hazard (i.e. Jose works with and moulds into a great player) or a Salah/De Bruyne (where he clearly fucked up)...or indeed a Taraabt!!

He reminds me of Taarabt. I meant to mention him again earlier when I sighted Le Tissier. I can honestly see his career going the same way. Salah was clearly talented when he was at Basel but inconsistent, I wanted him then. Strange Mourinho couldn’t get it out of him as he’s a perfect Mourinho player. De bruyne I can kind of understand as he had lampard and de bruyne wanted to leave as he wanted games straight away and not wait.

I don’t think it is just Mourinho who had problems with him, I’m not sure Poch could get a tune out of him despite pushing so hard for his transfer. Ironically people bash Levy for not backing his manager, he does with Ndombele and we then get this situation. That’s going to give levy nerves the next time he’s asked to do it with a big transfer.

 

[Japhet]

I’m not sure how the other players would take that.

He may well come good once we get a defensive midfielder in to do his dirty work. If we could get a good bid for him in the summer I’d consider it. I just don’t think he’s the right fit for us. Anyway, I doubt a club will see his performances and bid for him anyway. He’s more of a problem than a plus for us at the moment.

Getting some time on the pitch probably means a run out off the bench at this point in time. I'd be fine with that but I'd be equally fine with Skipp getting some, or Sessegnon, or Foyth, or Tanganga. The thing with Ndombele is that he's phenominally talented and must surely be given a chance. However, we do know that Mourinho likes the odd player in the ranks he can butt heads with, and it seems like the higher the profile the more he likes it. As you say, with a defensive midfielder in a CM3 his deficiencies would be shielded, but I don't see Mourinho dropping Dele (no matter how bad he gets) in order for that to happen.

 

[Wadec]

For me it is simple, everything at the moment is speculation. I can understand why he hasn't played thus far, it would have been nice to see him come on but the games we have played and results we have got are promising and we have to say Jose made the right calls.

We will be playing 3 games in 6 days shortly, we will have a much clearer idea of his status under Jose then.

I am in the camp of he needs to earn the opportunities and cameos over the busy period are his best shot. Let's hope he makes the most of them if they arrive.

 

[Amo]

If the reports from France that he's told Mourinho he doesn't want to play for him anymore are true then that's a major fuckup.

Mourinho was clearly trying to motivate him. If he thought he was a lost cause, he wouldn't have bothered. He's said this in interviews at former teams.

But what worked with the likes of Terry and Drogba will not work with the likes of Son and NDombele. He said this much after working with Balotelli: I had to discover the disconnect between two generations of player.

Aparantly fellow team members have tried to mediate between Mourinho and NDombele, desperate to keep the guy at Spurs. Hasn't worked.

Mourinho's comments pre-restart seem now to be acknowledgments he took it too far. However, this still does not mesh with the propaganda broadcast from within Spurs about how their relationship was rapidly improving to the point of contravening distancing regulations by training together in a park. And the images of his happy training sessions before the United game.

While I was one of the first on here to give him strife over his fitness levels, I thinl claims he's been a "disaster" are vastly exaggerated. In most games he's been competent at the very least and in many he's shown glimpses of what can be achieved with some acclimation. As the mediation efforts show, integration isn't an issue. His improvements in training are said to be part of the defense of him by teammates.

 

[dontcallme]

Comfortable 2-0 win resulting in arguments over whether people being supportive of a player are fanboys. The league is back on.

 

[Gassin's finest]

He's clearly an excellent footballer. His goals early in the season mark him out has a genuine creative force for us.

But Poch observed all the way back then, that it would likely take a season or two for Tanguy to get fully adjusted to the premier league and we start seeing him at his best. Some players hit the ground running coming to this league, and others simply cannot cope and never make it, and they go somewhere else. Whether we have the patience, or can afford to wait for him is another question. Or indeed if he himself even has the desire to do it.

He could be the Moussa Dembele replacement we desperately need. Or he could slope off in the summer and he'll join the likes of Kazayuki Toda and Helder Postiga in the footnotes of players who never made it at Spurs.

A lot of it is going to be up to him.

 

[yido_number1]

I had the feeling he left him out of the UTD game to get a reaction and was going to unleash him on West Ham. I thought last night would have been the perfect stage for him with the game stretched after our first goal. Surprised he didn't put him in. If he doesn't get involved in the next game he will be gone in the summer.

Strange situation as he is very clearly an extremely talented footballer.

 

[Havre]

No manager will manage every player perfectly. So far I think Mourinho has done fairly well if you look at individual players.

Aurier: Even if I still don't rate him he has at times been useful under Mourinho. Looked more solid defensively the last two games.
Dier: Almost looks a player - even if he "#%"! for that penalty.
Winks: Still a long way to go, and I don't know if this is backed up by stats, but he seems to play the ball more forward.
Lo Celso: Looks close to world class (that might have happened under Pochettino as well - he probably just needed time).
Sanchez: Looked completely lost at the end with Pochettino. Now looks like he might be something.
Alli: Obviously cooled down after that ridiculous start under Mourinho, but even so looks much more useful than at the end under Pochettino.
Lamela: Plays with the kind of confidence he rarely showed under Pochettino.
Tanganga: Still a lot to learn, and I don't know how he would have played under someone else, but played with the right kind of confidence/arrogance.

If N'Dombele is the odd one out so be it. Adapting to the league etc. - when you don't do the basics team mates will notice as well. Exactly the kind of "culture" I thought Pochettino did excellently getting rid of in his first years.

I think this is rather calculated by Mourinho. Tough love. It might be old school and it isn't the way I would have dealt with it, but I can still see the point. If you start to make exceptions for one player than what to do with the next etc? There is a reason why Jordan Henderson is a better player than N'Dombele and that has nothing to do with "natural ability".

I haven't given up on N'Dombele, but at this time if it is between him and Mourinho then sell the player.

 

[Yiddo1982]

There’s a bigger issue to this - and it is our attitude to recruitment and the processes involved.

Identifying talent is only half the battle - it’s even more important to ensure you’re buying the right characters, with the correct, strong mentality.

A number of our recent signings have come up short in this respect. Ndombele and Aurier to name but two. Foyth and Sanchez are mentally weak too.

When you read about Bruno’s leadership and sheer determination at Sporting, with a mentality to train as soon as he signed that United contract rather than go out for dinner, you know you’re onto a winner. Speaks fluent English too, doing interviews straight away. Professional.

We will never get that from the likes of Aurier and Ndombele.

 

[Havre]

There’s a bigger issue to this - and it is our attitude to recruitment and the processes involved.

Identifying talent is only half the battle - it’s even more important to ensure you’re buying the right characters, with the correct, strong mentality.

A number of our recent signings have come up short in this respect. Ndombele and Aurier to name but two. Foyth and Sanchez are mentally weak too.

When you read about Bruno’s leadership and sheer determination at Sporting, with a mentality to train as soon as he signed that United contract rather than go out for dinner, you know you’re onto a winner. Speaks fluent English too, doing interviews straight away. Professional.

We will never get that from the likes of Aurier and Ndombele.

Completely agree with the sentiment. Interesting to hear how Dortmund spoke about Haaland after they bought him. They mentioned this specifically that one of the things the liked the most was his body language when something went against him (probably a bit of confirmation bias here, but that aspect is important).

Don't agree that Sanchez is mentally weak, for Colombia I would say he shows he clearly isn't, but that is a side point.

 

[teedee]

There’s a bigger issue to this - and it is our attitude to recruitment and the processes involved.

Identifying talent is only half the battle - it’s even more important to ensure you’re buying the right characters, with the correct, strong mentality.

A number of our recent signings have come up short in this respect. Ndombele and Aurier to name but two. Foyth and Sanchez are mentally weak too.

When you read about Bruno’s leadership and sheer determination at Sporting, with a mentality to train as soon as he signed that United contract rather than go out for dinner, you know you’re onto a winner. Speaks fluent English too, doing interviews straight away. Professional.

We will never get that from the likes of Aurier and Ndombele.

Spot on.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

You ignored my point about him needing time to adjust in a new league. It’s very common that players take time.

His fitness didn’t seem to be where it needed to be. Sure. But Mourinho has said he is happy with how he has trained over confinement and Christ, that was a long time ago now that he was puffing. He needs minutes to acclimatise and the bottom line is treating him like this is self-evidently not getting the best out of him.

So if we’re not getting the best out of Ndombele then there are three possibilities...

1) it is not possible to get the best out of him. He’s unmanageable and a Ballotelli-type character.

2) it is not possible to get peak Ndombele now but by managing him this way we will see peak Ndombele in the future.

3) a different approach is required.

2 is a possibility. No one can say for sure. But he doesn’t have a great record this decade at coaxing the best out of players. He did with Hazard. But since then, and especially at United, he struggled, especially with bigger names.

I think a different approach is required and he is an arm round the shoulder kind of player who needs minutes and patience.

We will see...

He may need minutes and patience, and I continue to insist that I hope ultimately he gets them, but he has no divine right to it when he arrives in poor condition. It’s one thing struggling to adjust to a new league, I fully accept that as we’ve had enough lessons about players struggling first season then becoming top class. Modric, Son, Eriksen etc. It’s a very different thing to show up unfit. Being fit a prerequisite for any footballer at any level. My point isn’t that I’m unwilling to give Ndombele time to adapt, hell I’d take two seasons of inconsistent form if in season three he clicked and started running the show. My point is that, by not being in top condition when it comes to thing he has full control over, his stamina, his weight, his energy, he gave up his right to be given that chance as that is shameful for a £50m+ footballer earning between £5m-£10m per year. In fact, it’s shameful for a conference player earning £600 per week.

I want Ndombele to turn it around, I want the manager to trust him and I want him to be a lynchpin and a creative force for us, but if he never gets the chance to do so it’s his own fault for letting himself down in the first place. Most players don’t even need a second chance on this particular aspect, he does and I hope he gets it but he’s not entitled to it.

We’re going in circles now. I think he’s potentially great but understand why he’s not getting a look in, you think I hate him and don’t understand that players need time to adjust. It’s like we are speaking two different languages.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

I don't understand why there are calls for him to be picked. Well, I do....SC 'innit.

On the whole, he's hardly set the league alight and generally showed less effort and vim than asthmatic sloth smoking a fag who's trying to do the 100m in under sixteen hours whilst slipping Mrs Sloth one from behind.

Players who aren't being picked do this on SC. Somehow they magically get better for not playing.

There are a number of players who simply aren't good enough and until or unless he gets whatever it is that's causing all this sorted out, he's easily one of them.