Realistic expectations for 2020-21?

[Trotter]

Impressive hyperbole!

Not at all.
Last 4 seasons they have finished 8th, 5th, 6th and 5th.
Last time they were consistently this bad was early to mid 80's, and a couple of seasons in mid 90's (one of them being a season they won both the FA Cup and League Cup)

But this worst team they have had in a generation or 2, still has won a hell of a lot more than us.

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

Or weirdly because you know what targets we are after, but don't have the same knowledge in respect of our rivals.

To bring you a little up to speed Chelsea are looking at Ter Stegen, Chilwell, Rice, Stones, every one of them an improvement over that they have or we have, (and have already improved their top end signifcantly) and start from a better position than us anyway.
Arsenal have Saliba joining and are looking at Diego Carlos to partner him. (as well as looking at a few attacking options). They also have Tierney who missed most of last season with injury.
United can play Henderson in goal if they wish, and will be looking at top tier defenders also.

Every one of them will improve in areas they need, and in all likelihood will be prepared to spend on better quality players than we will.

Pointless talking about what Liverpool and City will do, we won't be doing anywhere near enough to get remotely close to them.

It’s very easy to convince oneself that everything is going and will go right for our rivals and that everything is going and will go wrong for us. But, in truth, that’s no more realistic than imagining the opposite outcome.

There is no trophy for winning the transfer window. Plenty of times in the past, including last summer, I’ve been excited by our signings but then been badly let down by the season that followed. We already had the core of a very good team. We now have a proven winner as a manager who knows what it takes. We don’t need spectacular signings. We just need the right signings.

 

[Saoirse]

It’s very easy to convince oneself that everything is going and will go right for our rivals and that everything is going and will go wrong for us. But, in truth, that’s no more realistic than imagining the opposite outcome.

There is no trophy for winning the transfer window. Plenty of times in the past, including last summer, I’ve been excited by our signings but then been badly let down by the season that followed. We already had the core of a very good team. We now have a proven winner as a manager who knows what it takes. We don’t need spectacular signings. We just need the right signings.

Exactly. Remember that last season Arsenal were said to have "won the transfer window" and came 8th; people were very happy with our signings and we came 6th. Liverpool have won the two big trophies with a lower net spend than us, with their extremely important fall-backs coming from their own youth academy and relegated Hull City. There's certainly a correlation between spending and success, but once you get past a certain quality it isn't very strong at all.

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

Not at all.
Last 4 seasons they have finished 8th, 5th, 6th and 5th.
Last time they were consistently this bad was early to mid 80's, and a couple of seasons in mid 90's (one of them being a season they won both the FA Cup and League Cup)

But this worst team they have had in a generation or 2, still has won a hell of a lot more than us.

“40 years plus” would take us back to the 1970’s or before.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

It’s very easy to convince oneself that everything is going and will go right for our rivals and that everything is going and will go wrong for us. But, in truth, that’s no more realistic than imagining the opposite outcome.

Compare trophies won by our rivals and then wipe the dust from our trophy cabinet. Generally speaking, our rivals do get it right, a lot more often than we do. Possibly because while they are busy actually doing the signings, we're haggling over wether or not the selling club will take a reversed charges phone call to discuss the possibility

So in truth, the pessimistic outcome is actually the more likely if for no other reason than it's panned out that way more often than not.

Having said that, we have improved with regard the identity of our 'rivals'. A few years ago they were Everton, Villa and whichever other club had an average season as we fought tooth and nail for 10th place.

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

Compare trophies won by our rivals and then wipe the dust from our trophy cabinet. Generally speaking, our rivals do get it right, a lot more often than we do. Possibly because while they are busy actually doing the signings, we're haggling over wether or not the selling club will take a reversed charges phone call to discuss the possibility

So in truth, the pessimistic outcome is actually the more likely if for no other reason than it's panned out that way more often than not.

Having said that, we have improved with regard the identity of our 'rivals'. A few years ago they were Everton, Villa and whichever other club had an average season as we fought tooth and nail for 10th place.

You have a point. But the discussion began principally as a comparison between us and Arsenal. And the truth is that, over the past five years or more, Arsenal fans have been every bit as frustrated by their club’s (in)ability to negotiate transfer windows as we are by ours.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

You have a point. But the discussion began principally as a comparison between us and Arsenal. And the truth is that, over the past five years or more, Arsenal fans have been every bit as frustrated by their club’s (in)ability to negotiate transfer windows as we are by ours.

Isn't there quite a large movement wanting the owner to sell?

We're even behind on that front

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

Isn't there quite a large movement wanting the owner to sell?

We're even behind on that front

The state of this forum if Kroenke owned us.....!

The BSoSK don’t even have a shiny, new stadium and training ground to cite in his defence.

 

[Trotter]

The state of this forum if Kroenke owned us.....!

The BSoSK don’t even have a shiny, new stadium and training ground to cite in his defence.

No, but under his stewardship they have won 7 times the amount of trophies we have won under Levy, and in less than half the time period.

There are certain things that are more important than the bricks and mortar Tottenham Hotspur Events and Property Company Ltd have become, and to supporters the most important one must be success on the pitch, where we have been massively lacking.

 

[SheffieldAndy]

No, but under his stewardship they have won 7 times the amount of trophies we have won under Levy, and in less than half the time period.

There are certain things that are more important than the bricks and mortar Tottenham Hotspur Events and Property Company Ltd have become, and to supporters the most important one must be success on the pitch, where we have been massively lacking.

To counter that somewhat, are Arsenal a better and more competitive team now, compared to when he took over?
Are Tottenham a better and more competitive team now, compared to when ENIC took over?

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

No, but under his stewardship they have won 7 times the amount of trophies we have won under Levy, and in less than half the time period.

There are certain things that are more important than the bricks and mortar Tottenham Hotspur Events and Property Company Ltd have become, and to supporters the most important one must be success on the pitch, where we are massively lacking.

They’ve won 4 FA Cups. That’s it. The Community Shield is on a par with the Peace Cup. No serious football fan regards it as a serious trophy.

Nevertheless, I concede that that’s still 4 times the number of trophies won by Spurs under ENIC. But, in every other footballing respect, Arsenal have regressed alarmingly under Kroenke. You need no further proof than the fact that Arsenal Fan TV has built a vast cult following on the back of it. The limited success that Arsenal have enjoyed during Kroenke’s time owes more to vestigial strength than it does to current good leadership.

 

[SUIYHA]

Not feeling that confident about the new season.

Chelsea have signed Werner, Ziyech and are about to sign Havertz and probably Chilwell.

Man United are looking at Sancho and are likely to sign him in the coming days to give them plenty of options up front.

Arsenal are favourites now for Willian and are being linked with Coutinho.

Man City and Liverpool will continue to strengthen.

We are being linked to a free transfer of Deeney. Also we will spend the summer haggling over 50p for Holberg, a South Korean centre back no-one has heard of, and some cheap full backs who will be no better than Aurier.

We will be battling to get top 6 with Everton and Wolves next season.

Yeah this is the way I feel at the moment. The stadium should have given us a huge budget to spend but instead of going to devastate our finances until we can get crowds inside. The team needs urgent improvements but we're not going to have the resources to do it.

As things stand I don't see us finishing higher than we came this year. We might fluke our way to success in one of the cups but it's highly unlikely, and even with Mourinho's record in the Europa League I don't see us as one of the favourites.

 

[Trotter]

They’ve won 4 FA Cups. That’s it. The Community Shield is on a par with the Peace Cup. No serious football fan regards it as a serious trophy.

Nevertheless, I concede that that’s still 4 times the number of trophies won by Spurs under ENIC. But, in every other footballing respect, Arsenal have regressed alarmingly under Kroenke. You need no further proof than the fact that Arsenal Fan TV has built a vast cult following on the back of it. The limited success that Arsenal have enjoyed during Kroenke’s time owes more to vestigial strength than it does to current good leadership.

Serious Football fans do. We certainly used to, as did the 100k that used to turn up.
Our club certainly does, look on our website, Community Shield is listed under Major Honours, Peace Cup is not.
But not having actually been in one for 29 years, because you have to win something first to qualify for it, sort of puts a dampener and current belittling on that for fans of clubs like ours doesn't it.

OK Arsenal have regressed under Kroenke you could say based on League positions, although their trophy count holds up very much so. (7 in 9 years, as opposed to 1 in 19 years of our ownership)
However in the same way though you could say Spurs have massively regressed under Levy. Under him our trophy win rate per annum is at least 4 times worse than any chairman we have had since the second world war.

What do you judge success by. Well actually being a football club, and the history of the club, I judge it by trophies won.
If Tottenham Hotspur Football Club were a property company (and to be honest, we are not far off being that) then we may have won a couple of best stadium of the year trophies, and could celebrate that, but we aren't

Any reasonably genuine Spurs fan can name every year we have won a trophy in our history, if in say 10 years time I gave a fan a season and asked them where did we finish in the League this year or last year, the majority won't be able to tell me, because if you don't win it is totally irrelevant.

 

[dtxspurs]

Is there any expectation we'll be able to have fans at all next year? I'm planning on making the journey in May. Additionally, how often do schedules get changed in May?

 

[SheffieldAndy]

However in the same way though you could say Spurs have massively regressed under Levy. Under him our trophy win rate is at least 4 times worse than any chairman we have had since the second world war.

Are you really saying the shared Charity shield counts as a second trophy in the ten year stint under Sugar?

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

Serious Football fans do. We certainly used to, as did the 100k that used to turn up.
Our club certainly does, look on our website, Community Shield is listed under Major Honours, Peace Cup is not.
But not having actually been in one for 29 years, because you have to win something first sort of puts a damper on that for fans of clubs like ours doesn't it.

Sure, fans have always flocked to the Charity Shield. That’s because, after three months with no club football, fans are ready for a day out. Not to mention that it’s a day out at Wembley (albeit that that no longer counts for as much as it once did). But that’s all it ever was......a day out at Wembley. It has never been considered a major trophy. I don’t care what the club website says now. Honours lists back in the day NEVER included the Charity Shield. Rightly so. It’s a one off game in aid of charity between two teams who won the league and cup (or just came second, in the event that the Double was achieved) the previous season.

OK Arsenal have regressed under Kroenke you could say based on League positions, although their trophy count holds up very much so.

As I said, the trophies that they’ve won over the past nine years are the consequence of vestigial strength rather than anything to do with current good leadership.

But in the same way you could say Spurs have massively regressed under Levy. Under him our trophy win rate is at least 4 times worse than any chairman we have had d since the second world war.

But that would be to make the comparison entirely without reference to context - which isn’t at all useful. Before the mid / late 90’s, the ability to be competitive in football had remained largely unchanged for its entire history. Pretty much any reasonably sized club had a chance to win trophies. ENIC took over Spurs after that watershed. Furthermore, they took over a Tottenham that had withered to a shadow of its former strength after a decade of neglect. We were miles behind, and falling ever further behind, the top clubs. We seemed to have little chance of even stabilising the gap, let alone closing it. Throw into the mix a couple of clubs that won the oil lottery. The consequence of all of which is that the past two decades has seen the major trophies practically monopolised by just a few clubs in a manner that no other Spurs chairman ever had to contend with.

What do you judge success by. Well actually being a football club, I judge it by trophies won.

Any reasonable Spurs fan can name every year we have won a trophy, if in say 10 years time I gave a fan a season and asked them where did we finish that year, the majority won't be able to tell me, because if you don't win it is totally irrelevant.

I think it perfectly valid to have more than one definition of success in football. Winning trophies is one, certainly. But taking a club that resided firmly in lower mid table to a club that resides firmly in the top six is legitimately another. And while you might be correct to say that, in 10 years time, most fans won’t remember exactly what league position Spurs achieved in any given year during the 2010s...............so what? I’m not in the business of being a Spurs fan just so that, at some point in the distant future, I will be able to list off trophies that I’ve seen us win. I prefer to live in the present; to enjoy it for what it is; not to reduce it to a stats accumulation exercise. Despite the lack of trophies, I genuinely wouldn’t swap the Champions League experiences and huge enjoyment I have taken from the past 10 years for ten years of mid table drudgery punctuated by a couple of FA Cup wins.

 

[Deleted member 29446]

Another Audi cup for me.

 

[shelfboy68]

Another Audi cup for me.

Could we not enter the Betfair cup and give it a go.

 

[jurgen]

5th, assuming we can get in the platform needed to free up our better forward players to do their thing. Who knows, even someone to let Kane have a rest. Looks like the top 4 are all buying players to beat up on the dross so they'll be racking up points aplenty which is going to make anything higher pretty tricky.

Definitely have more faith in Mourinho to guide us deeper into the Europa though, but that will also rinse the squad.

 

[DiVaio]

Or weirdly because you know what targets we are after, but don't have the same knowledge in respect of our rivals.

To bring you a little up to speed Chelsea are looking at Ter Stegen, Chilwell, Rice, Stones, every one of them an improvement over that they have or we have, (and have already improved their top end signifcantly) and start from a better position than us anyway.
Arsenal have Saliba joining and are looking at Diego Carlos to partner him. (as well as looking at a few attacking options). They also have Tierney who missed most of last season with injury.
United can play Henderson in goal if they wish, and will be looking at top tier defenders also.

Every one of them will improve in areas they need, and in all likelihood will be prepared to spend on better quality players than we will.

Pointless talking about what Liverpool and City will do, we won't be doing anywhere near enough to get remotely close to them.

If you are saying that Arsenal will sign Diego Carlos and Chelsea will sign Ter Stegen, Chilwell and Rice you don’t have a clue about their transfers too.