SC's Tactical Autopsy thread

[ajspurs]

I'll be honest, I'm enjoying watching other football games more than our own at the moment and that's strange for me as no matter how poor we've been as a side I've always looked forward to watching us play. I guess no Kane or Son contributes to that.

Literally thinking of us playing right now is tiring though, seeing the names of our players and thoughts of how we should play and who should play where, tires me. Seems like it's been done so much and each time nothing changes. Everything about our football just feels like a massive struggle and a strain, watching us just string 4 or 5 passes together can feel like it's difficult for us to achieve.

God knows what to expect on Sunday. I'm past caring about the starting 11, just want to see any sort of effective performance. Even if that means 30% possession and strictly counter attacking, I just want to see something working out there on the pitch.

 

[Dr Benson]

I'll be honest, I'm enjoying watching other football games more than our own at the moment and that's strange for me as no matter how poor we've been as a side I've always looked forward to watching us play. I guess no Kane or Son contributes to that.

Literally thinking of us playing right now is tiring though, seeing the names of our players and thoughts of how we should play and who should play where, tires me. Seems like it's been done so much and each time nothing changes. Everything about our football just feels like a massive struggle and a strain, watching us just string 4 or 5 passes together can feel like it's difficult for us to achieve.

God knows what to expect on Sunday. I'm past caring about the starting 11, just want to see any sort of effective performance. Even if that means 30% possession and strictly counter attacking, I just want to see something working out there on the pitch.

Yes, but I get the feeling that "everybody" is basing their views on our current tactics on the two last games..? I didn`t watch the game against Leipzig to be honest, but I understand it was the "parking the bus" all the way..? The transcript from the alleged pre-match speech Mou held also suggests that it was his only game plan. But I really doubt parking the bus is his plan in every game from now on. Neither our defense or our attack (without Son, Kane and Eriksen) is strong at the moment, and when we meet teams like Leipzig, neither a high pressing or a counter attack based style suit us at the moment. Parking the bus is the emergency tactic when we meet big teams right now, I suppose. I suppose counter attacking style is what he`s planning (not parking the bus) when Son or/and Kane returns, combined with high pressing football against the weaker opponents. With fast wingers like Sonny and Bergweijn and a strong target man like Kane, I guess counter attacking football will suit us quite well. It might also be effective and entertaining to watch. But basing the analysis of Mourinhos tactics on the two last games is neither fair og accurate in my opinion. And I guess we will see many attempts to do counter attacks next sunday.

 

[walworthyid]

Yes, but I get the feeling that "everybody" is basing their views on our current tactics on the two last games..? I didn`t watch the game against Leipzig to be honest, but I understand it was the "parking the bus" all the way..? The transcript from the alleged pre-match speech Mou held also suggests that it was his only game plan. But I really doubt parking the bus is his plan in every game from now on. Neither our defense or our attack (without Son, Kane and Eriksen) is strong at the moment, and when we meet teams like Leipzig, neither a high pressing or a counter attack based style suit us at the moment. Parking the bus is the emergency tactic when we meet big teams right now, I suppose. I suppose counter attacking style is what he`s planning (not parking the bus) when Son or/and Kane returns, combined with high pressing football against the weaker opponents. With fast wingers like Sonny and Bergweijn and a strong target man like Kane, I guess counter attacking football will suit us quite well. It might also be effective and entertaining to watch. But basing the analysis of Mourinhos tactics on the two last games is neither fair og accurate in my opinion. And I guess we will see many attempts to do counter attacks next sunday.

We have been consistently poor regardless of the players available or the opponent. These are outdated and tired tactics that belong in the past.

You simply cannot concede possession and territory so easily and expect anything other than a defeat.

I refuse to watch another match until a)he gets us playing decent football b)another manager comes in who can.

I love spurs, probably too much, and that will never change. But I will not watch what is currently being served up as "football". Its embarrassing for a club of our stature to play in such a way as we make Villa look like the Brazil team from 1970!

 

[CornerPinDreamer]

We have been consistently poor regardless of the players available or the opponent. These are outdated and tired tactics that belong in the past.

You simply cannot concede possession and territory so easily and expect anything other than a defeat.

I refuse to watch another match until a)he gets us playing decent football b)another manager comes in who can.

I love spurs, probably too much, and that will never change. But I will not watch what is currently being served up as "football". Its embarrassing for a club of our stature to play in such a way as we make Villa look like the Brazil team from 1970!

He does seem to be trying to mash together a new exciting style of play.





and I find it easier to accept that if i'm watching at home, smoking up and doing yoga at the same time

 

[Cochise]

I'm not going to be so quick to call them out-dated. If we take the Liverpool game for example, we defended quite well and they tired by the 70th minute. Had Gio scored at the back stick we'd have been happy.

My issue though comes with the lack of progressive football. Our midfield two are outnumbered most games and we aren't finding alternatives in the buildup often enough.

 

[walworthyid]

I'm not going to be so quick to call them out-dated. If we take the Liverpool game for example, we defended quite well and they tired by the 70th minute. Had Gio scored at the back stick we'd have been happy.

My issue though comes with the lack of progressive football. Our midfield two are outnumbered most games and we aren't finding alternatives in the buildup often enough.

A year ago we would under no circumstances have been happy defending against anybody for 70 minutes! Yes we were outplayed at times, but never for entire matches without offering any threat at all!

We've been away to barcelona, juve, city, liverpool amongst others and were very very rarely under the cosh for entire games!

No plan, no press, no possession, nothing at all!

It's not good enough. I will not watch it. I dont go to many games but have gone to great lengths to make sure that I watch every match on tele or the internet. I've missed about 3 or 4 games in more than a decade, so I dont say this lightly. I will not watch another game until we start playing actual football again. It's a disgrace what we are being forced to watch at the moment. An absolute disgrace.

 

[wrd]

A year ago we would under no circumstances have been happy defending against anybody for 70 minutes! Yes we were outplayed at times, but never for entire matches without offering any threat at all!

We've been away to barcelona, juve, city, liverpool amongst others and were very very rarely under the cosh for entire games!

No plan, no press, no possession, nothing at all!

It's not good enough. I will not watch it. I dont go to many games but have gone to great lengths to make sure that I watch every match on tele or the internet. I've missed about 3 or 4 games in more than a decade, so I dont say this lightly. I will not watch another game until we start playing actual football again. It's a disgrace what we are being forced to watch at the moment. An absolute disgrace.

How will you know we've started playing football if you're not watching though

 

[Shadydan]

A year ago we would under no circumstances have been happy defending against anybody for 70 minutes! Yes we were outplayed at times, but never for entire matches without offering any threat at all!

We've been away to barcelona, juve, city, liverpool amongst others and were very very rarely under the cosh for entire games!

No plan, no press, no possession, nothing at all!

It's not good enough. I will not watch it. I dont go to many games but have gone to great lengths to make sure that I watch every match on tele or the internet. I've missed about 3 or 4 games in more than a decade, so I dont say this lightly. I will not watch another game until we start playing actual football again. It's a disgrace what we are being forced to watch at the moment. An absolute disgrace.

Cool bro, do you mind giving me your season ticket if you have one, safe my G

 

[sparx100]

The longer Jose persists with Lucas upfront the more we will struggle/fail to score goals as history shows, the only other option is playing Dele who has the physical presence to hold the ball & bring others into play

When have we played with Dele up front on his jack?

 

[jay2040]

We have been consistently poor regardless of the players available or the opponent. These are outdated and tired tactics that belong in the past.

You simply cannot concede possession and territory so easily and expect anything other than a defeat.

I refuse to watch another match until a)he gets us playing decent football b)another manager comes in who can.

I love spurs, probably too much, and that will never change. But I will not watch what is currently being served up as "football". Its embarrassing for a club of our stature to play in such a way as we make Villa look like the Brazil team from 1970!

I dont think his tactics include losing possession,that would be down to the players.

 

[SoulDog]

We will never beat the top teams if we don't keep possession of the ball or press.

Watching us is very painful , we don't seem to have a starting plan, mourinho, especially at the start which I was quite surprised by, was, just send our main/best players out there with no actual plan, and hope for the best and this is how I generally feel about him at the moment. I really thought Mourinho was going to be better than this. I knew we were never going to play tikka takka stuff under the so called genuis but I was looking forward to his tactics and mostly they have been disappointing, especially his starting tactics.

Some positives, we can all agree on, we start games absolutely abysmal, but to be fair to him he can notice this, especially early on and change the games/tactics one thing poch lacked and in the end let him down. We have done well to get up the table and we can all be happy with that so in that respect mourinho has done well and we will get some wins playing like this but against the top teams if we cant keep hold of the ball we are going to lose, simple as that. All of our wins have been lucky so far and we have not exactly deserved to win them overall.

. “It’s no use just winning, we’ve got to win well.”

 

[walworthyid]

How will you know we've started playing football if you're not watching though

I was waiting for this one! I'll come on here! I've been an sc member for 15 years, I've no intention of leaving!

I'm not enjoying watching us, I cant see where we are going other than more of the same negative tactics and poor play. I still want us to have success, I just wont be watching it!

I was never one of those who felt that we had to win something at any cost. If this is indeed the cost, it is a price too high! I would rather see us fail by staying true to our values as a club than see those values dragged through the mud in pursuit of a few trophies. Apart from that, this style of football wont win us trophies. Perhaps 10 years ago, but not now.

I dont think his tactics include losing possession,that would be down to the players.

Not entirely. If you are set up in such a way as you concede territory, concede numbers in the middle and clearly look to counter, you arent set up to retain the ball. The players need players to pass to, they need the team to move up the pitch enough to actually have some territory in which to pass. At the moment every single pass is pressured and being received by somebody who is pressured.

Yes, I've no doubt the players could do better,but are you seriously telling me that GLC cant retain the ball? Winks? Even Dier? I've seen them do it. Winks held his own away at Barcelona for example.

Mourinho is setting us up in such a way as ball retention is extremely difficult. It invites the press and ultimately this borne out by the number of times we turn possession over.

 

[Phomesy]

I'm not going to be so quick to call them out-dated. If we take the Liverpool game for example, we defended quite well and they tired by the 70th minute. Had Gio scored at the back stick we'd have been happy.

SInce his appointment I've been waiting for that one game where - like we saw at all other previous Mourinho clubs - you went "yep - that's his team playing his way and it will work".

You don't have to think it's pretty but you KNOW it will be effective.

The Liverpool game was the closest we've got to that under Mourinho - but we lost. And seem to have lost some belief with it.

We hoped he could come in immediately stamp an imprint of our side. That hasn't happened for a host of reasons.

It has to happen by September next season or he, and we, will be in some trouble.

History suggests he'll get it right. Let's hope so.

 

[kremlyn]

From what I could see yesterday was a 4-2-2-2. It had to be because bergwijn was knackered and Moura drifts centrally.

It is classic Mourinho catenaccio but rather than talk about the merits it's worth considering that it nearly worked and was a viable solution to not having a striker.

Is it the best solution? I think it might be and I expect to see it again.

I have no expectations of winning anything this season without a striker. Our only real hope of scoring is from set peices and counter attacks as we don't have any risk taking movement in the middle of the park. Dele just can't time his runs behind the lines.We do have players who can capitalise on space before the oppo can reorganise however, but none once it is.

The purpose seems clear. Give the opposition no quarter through the middle, force them to spread out and play expansively and exploit the gaps when we turn over possession. It's a recipe for turgid football but I think it's all we've got.

We actually did it really well. Skipp in particular was very difficult for the oppo to get past. Lo celso and Moura did their best to cause havoc in transition and we forced a couple of set pieces, one of which we scored from.

The only other solution I can think of is to play with a false 9 but again, you need a special type of player to pull that off and we don't have one.

I am not a fan of Mourinho, he's just not a good fit for a club that demands exciting football. Perfect for Inter and Porto, shocking for Man U and Spurs. However anyone who tries to play expansive football with our current squad would get us walloped so Jose is the right guy doing the right things for right now.

I wouldn't shed a single tear if he left in the summer.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

New manager, new style, how are people feeling about it?

I feel we’re working the flanks the best we have a while, with our dual 8s in Dele and Hojbjerg doing an almost wing back role where they are trait protecting the fullbacks/ covering their forward runs but at the same time helping the wide players double up on opposition fullbacks. We’ve passed in behind nicely a few times, mostly v City admittedly.

I also like how narrow the front 3 are tucking in to occupy the opposition centre backs when we do push forward, it’s making it harder for the opposition midfield as centre backs to help out their fullbacks when we get the ball wide.

The downside of all this for me is that Skipp as the sole pivot doesn’t get much help, as there are big gaps between both himself and Dele, and himself and Højbjerg. His enthusiasm to press and try and break an opposition attack before it builds is working against him too as it’s looking fairly easy to take him out of the game and go straight for our centre backs. Then the centre backs, who have started the season well, are much more vulnerable to being overloaded on themselves, particularly as they’re playing a good 10-15 yards further up the pitch than they were.

I think if we’re going to play this system, which can create an attack so quickly but is also very vulnerable to turnovers, The players are going to have to improve how they take care of the ball in those moments where the attack isn’t on. Both centre backs and all three midfielders are so far giving up possession too cheaply, which was evident v Wolves, and it is inviting pressure that will undo us more often than not. It’s funny because v City our passing out the back and through the lines was remarkably composed, which is what led to our goal, but v Wolves it felt as though our players were being bullied more often than not.

I think there are early positive signs but ultimately we need to be more cohesive and more comfortable in possession. Part of that will come with tactical familiarity, but part of that needs the players to be more focused and less easy to get at on an individual level.

 

[Kingstheman]

Bus Conductor is back... oh, wait...

 

[danielneeds]

Jury’s still out. We’ll know a lot more after Watford I think.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Jury’s still out. We’ll know a lot more after Watford I think.

Even then, it’s only three matches. Better them or shock defeat, neither will tell us much. We should hopefully see a defined style by mid autumn, regardless of how popular that style is. Half the issue under Jose and the later days of Pochettino’s tenure is that the players had no clue what they were doing.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

New manager, new style, how are people feeling about it?

I feel we’re working the flanks the best we have a while, with our dual 8s in Dele and Hojbjerg doing an almost wing back role where they are trait protecting the fullbacks/ covering their forward runs but at the same time helping the wide players double up on opposition fullbacks. We’ve passed in behind nicely a few times, mostly v City admittedly.

I also like how narrow the front 3 are tucking in to occupy the opposition centre backs when we do push forward, it’s making it harder for the opposition midfield as centre backs to help out their fullbacks when we get the ball wide.

The downside of all this for me is that Skipp as the sole pivot doesn’t get much help, as there are big gaps between both himself and Dele, and himself and Højbjerg. His enthusiasm to press and try and break an opposition attack before it builds is working against him too as it’s looking fairly easy to take him out of the game and go straight for our centre backs. Then the centre backs, who have started the season well, are much more vulnerable to being overloaded on themselves, particularly as they’re playing a good 10-15 yards further up the pitch than they were.

I think if we’re going to play this system, which can create an attack so quickly but is also very vulnerable to turnovers, The players are going to have to improve how they take care of the ball in those moments where the attack isn’t on. Both centre backs and all three midfielders are so far giving up possession too cheaply, which was evident v Wolves, and it is inviting pressure that will undo us more often than not. It’s funny because v City our passing out the back and through the lines was remarkably composed, which is what led to our goal, but v Wolves it felt as though our players were being bullied more often than not.

I think there are early positive signs but ultimately we need to be more cohesive and more comfortable in possession. Part of that will come with tactical familiarity, but part of that needs the players to be more focused and less easy to get at on an individual level.

I’m positive as to how Nuno has handled the Kane situation and the media and the results we’ve got in two tough games given the dark cloud that’s been over us with Kane situ.

I like the 4-3-3 and think it’ll take a bit more time for us to see more attacking patterns of play etc.

Im a huge fan of 4-3-3 and absolutely loved the intensity we played with vs City, I didn’t find it boring at all.

Against Wolves I was a bit disappointed by our lack of ability to retain the ball but it could be partly because Nuno is not a high possession style manager and it could also be partly because we lacked a focal point and a ball playing CM, Kane coming on have us much more control.

Very early days but so far some positive signs but think that 2 new signings with a ball playing creative CM & upgrade RW would see us looking more fluid and exciting.

Like any manager he will need more time to get the team playing how he wants.

 

[bomberH]

Eek

No interest in formations but I happened to find this post from Starting Price that contained one word. ONE WORD.

I’m beginning to doubt my whole existence.