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Tactically Inept?

Ionman34

SC Supporter
Jun 1, 2011
7,182
16,793
I've seen this comment on here a few times about Sherwood and questioned the assertions due to the fact that we had seen very little to either back the claim up or question it. After the last few games though, and particularly after the ManU performance, I'm wondering whether those that made the claims are seeing what I'm seeing, or if they are stubbornly holding onto the 'belief' as, let's face it, that is all it was based on so few games to formulate an analytical viewpoint.
Often we have seen the assertion that playing 442 will see us whacked by the better sides. The reality of the situation is that 442 is how we have set up, not how we have played. Other posters, apologies as I can't recall who, have put up our average pitch position monitors showing that, despite the initial set up, we are really playing more of a 433 and this is something I noted against Utd with Eriksen appearing to play more as an lf than a traditional lm.
The othe thing I noted was that many of the players were more fluid in their movement but with the overall shape of the team never really being lost.
Now call me naive, but this, in my experience, isn't accidental but a defined way of playing that, it seems, the players are immensely comfortable with and is a way of playing that we have been crying out for.
So, we have a team that, whilst maybe not retaining the amount of possession that was a hallmark of the AVB approach, is managing to dictate the flow of most games, is attacking with guile, adventure and purpose, is fluid across the pitch, is showing intelligence in increasing quantities and is doing all of this when being down to a squad of 16, 15 if you count the warm up injury to Naughton.
I'm not attributing all of this to Sherwood, as the basis for this was set by AVB really, but I'm finding what I am watching more and more encouraging. The way we kept Utd at arms length for the majority of the game also showed me that we are not reliant on a possession based game but that we can alter our tactics/style of play to suit the opposition.

So, overall, I'm saying that I have been impressed with the way the team is being 'managed' up until now and kudos should go to the entire management team for showing what I believe is far from tactical naivety but shows quite a mature understanding of the players available, the style of Football they, and we, want played and the ability to, so far, make the right decisions depending on the opposition, all with a hugely depleted squad.

Yes, I know it is early days, but there is still enough there to show that, for now at least, we are moving in the right direction.

Thoughts?
 

Kiedis

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2013
2,926
8,490
I'm certainly more relaxed now after our two last games, when we've played with some solidity in the centre of the park. Also some nice touches in yesterdays game with Dembele as designated Rooney tormentor. Haven't seen Rooney this subdued before this season.

That being said, the question is for how many more games Ade will stay motivated, since he's basically carrying us in many aspects of the game. We all know he he goes hot and cold, and will Sherwood really be able to work his magic better than Wenger, Mancini or AVB?
 

Danners9

Available on a Free Transfer
Mar 30, 2004
14,015
20,803
Not inept, but it appears raw. It isn't, of course, and the change in style and results show this, but people now associate 4-4-2 with an outdated and open form of football that obviously means the 'top teams' will destroy us and inherit the earth.

Bayern beat Dortmund 3-0 (I just looked it up on Zonal Marking :D) with a 4-3-3/4-4-2 style formation that moved one forward out wide and added a winger on the other (Robben/Muller), like Spurs have done with Adebayor and Lennon. That means there is pace on both sides, and a constantly changing threat for defenders. Lennon has always ripped Evra a new one and Adebayor's workrate has been impressive. Smalling was nowhere near him and didn't have a chance of adjusting to the header.

We do look a bit frantic at times, but in midfield possession it is quite calm and measured. Passes out to Eriksen who gets beyond the forward and stretches the defence, or Walker/Lennon combining well on the other side. It's quite fun to watch!
 
Last edited:

dudu

Well-Known Member
Jan 28, 2011
5,314
11,048
I've seen this comment on here a few times about Sherwood and questioned the assertions due to the fact that we had seen very little to either back the claim up or question it. After the last few games though, and particularly after the ManU performance, I'm wondering whether those that made the claims are seeing what I'm seeing, or if they are stubbornly holding onto the 'belief' as, let's face it, that is all it was based on so few games to formulate an analytical viewpoint.
Often we have seen the assertion that playing 442 will see us whacked by the better sides. The reality of the situation is that 442 is how we have set up, not how we have played. Other posters, apologies as I can't recall who, have put up our average pitch position monitors showing that, despite the initial set up, we are really playing more of a 433 and this is something I noted against Utd with Eriksen appearing to play more as an lf than a traditional lm.
The othe thing I noted was that many of the players were more fluid in their movement but with the overall shape of the team never really being lost.
Now call me naive, but this, in my experience, isn't accidental but a defined way of playing that, it seems, the players are immensely comfortable with and is a way of playing that we have been crying out for.
So, we have a team that, whilst maybe not retaining the amount of possession that was a hallmark of the AVB approach, is managing to dictate the flow of most games, is attacking with guile, adventure and purpose, is fluid across the pitch, is showing intelligence in increasing quantities and is doing all of this when being down to a squad of 16, 15 if you count the warm up injury to Naughton.
I'm not attributing all of this to Sherwood, as the basis for this was set by AVB really, but I'm finding what I am watching more and more encouraging. The way we kept Utd at arms length for the majority of the game also showed me that we are not reliant on a possession based game but that we can alter our tactics/style of play to suit the opposition.

So, overall, I'm saying that I have been impressed with the way the team is being 'managed' up until now and kudos should go to the entire management team for showing what I believe is far from tactical naivety but shows quite a mature understanding of the players available, the style of Football they, and we, want played and the ability to, so far, make the right decisions depending on the opposition, all with a hugely depleted squad.

Yes, I know it is early days, but there is still enough there to show that, for now at least, we are moving in the right direction.

Thoughts?


I couldnt agree more..... the whole 4-4-2 thing is just something made up by the media to talk about and im actually shocked how many pundits go on about it.

Tim and co appear to know what they want and how to achieve it and the players are clearly responding in the way we all want to see.
 

Monkey Bastard Hands

Large Member
Jul 18, 2010
1,411
1,121
I couldnt agree more..... the whole 4-4-2 thing is just something made up by the media to talk about and im actually shocked how many pundits go on about it.

Tim and co appear to know what they want and how to achieve it and the players are clearly responding in the way we all want to see.

A number of posters on here also decided that TS would play 442 before he'd even played his first game. Quite how they and others in the media can come to this conclusion so early is baffling, and as the OP states although the lineup looks like a 442 on paper we're not playing like it at all.
 

Flashspur

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2012
6,883
9,069
Sherwood is actually playing a style similar to that employed by HR. He plays an inverted winger on the left (Bale and Modric in the old days) who drifts into CM rather than attacks directly down the flank or inside forward channel (Eriksen) and a more conventional winger on the other flank (Lennon) who generally hugs the line.

When this occurs we go into a 4-3-3 formastion as Eriksen moves into CM and Lennon moves up to form the front three with Soldado and Adebayor. Ade also moves out to the flank as well at times to drag defenders with him which caused the United defence all sorts of bother as they were pulled out of shape.

While Lennon operates on the flank and tracks back to help out Walker, Ericksen leaves Rose exposed on the other flank. Now Rose was one on one with his winger and he should be able to handle that but I noticed that Moyes targeted his wing and there was little respite for Danny.

We obviously need some adjuting so this works better because you would expect the team to be pretty fluid in moving in and out of 4-4-2 and 4-3-3 depending on how we move the ball forward. When Rose is under pressure we should be able to relieve that by adjusting the formation.

The highlight for me was the brilliant running in the channels by Soldado who continually opened up space for Ade and Eriksen and took defenders away with him. Look at his superb movement for the first goal off the ball which takes out two United defenders leaving Smalling completley exposed one on one with Ade.
 

allatsea

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
8,945
16,189
Sherwood is actually playing a style similar to that employed by HR. He plays an inverted winger on the left (Bale and Modric in the old days) who drifts into CM rather than attacks directly down the flank or inside forward channel (Eriksen) and a more conventional winger on the other flank (Lennon) who generally hugs the line.

When this occurs we go into a 4-3-3 formastion as Eriksen moves into CM and Lennon moves up to form the front three with Soldado and Adebayor. Ade also moves out to the flank as well at times to drag defenders with him which caused the United defence all sorts of bother as they were pulled out of shape.

While Lennon operates on the flank and tracks back to help out Walker, Ericksen leaves Rose exposed on the other flank. Now Rose was one on one with his winger and he should be able to handle that but I noticed that Moyes targeted his wing and there was little respite for Danny.

We obviously need some adjuting so this works better because you would expect the team to be pretty fluid in moving in and out of 4-4-2 and 4-3-3 depending on how we move the ball forward. When Rose is under pressure we should be able to relieve that by adjusting the formation.

The highlight for me was the brilliant running in the channels by Soldado who continually opened up space for Ade and Eriksen and took defenders away with him. Look at his superb movement for the first goal off the ball which takes out two United defenders leaving Smalling completley exposed one on one with Ade.


Certainly exposed Smallings limitations. To think SAF and Wenger both wanted Smalling. Two great managers and both were wrong about his potential IMO.
 

dudu

Well-Known Member
Jan 28, 2011
5,314
11,048
Sherwood is actually playing a style similar to that employed by HR. He plays an inverted winger on the left (Bale and Modric in the old days) who drifts into CM rather than attacks directly down the flank or inside forward channel (Eriksen) and a more conventional winger on the other flank (Lennon) who generally hugs the line.

When this occurs we go into a 4-3-3 formastion as Eriksen moves into CM and Lennon moves up to form the front three with Soldado and Adebayor. Ade also moves out to the flank as well at times to drag defenders with him which caused the United defence all sorts of bother as they were pulled out of shape.

While Lennon operates on the flank and tracks back to help out Walker, Ericksen leaves Rose exposed on the other flank. Now Rose was one on one with his winger and he should be able to handle that but I noticed that Moyes targeted his wing and there was little respite for Danny.

We obviously need some adjuting so this works better because you would expect the team to be pretty fluid in moving in and out of 4-4-2 and 4-3-3 depending on how we move the ball forward. When Rose is under pressure we should be able to relieve that by adjusting the formation.

The highlight for me was the brilliant running in the channels by Soldado who continually opened up space for Ade and Eriksen and took defenders away with him. Look at his superb movement for the first goal off the ball which takes out two United defenders leaving Smalling completley exposed one on one with Ade.

Soldado was fantastic - absolutely working his socks off for the greater good.
 

Lilbaz

Just call me Baz
Apr 1, 2005
41,363
74,893
What formation does liverpool play with suarez and sturridge?
What formation does city play with aguero and negrado?
What formation did fergie play with rooney and rvp?

Depends on the situation during the game. Just because we have ade and soldier doesn't dictate where they are on the pitch or what they do.
 

Ionman34

SC Supporter
Jun 1, 2011
7,182
16,793
Soldado was fantastic - absolutely working his socks off for the greater good.
And his goals will come, of that I have no doubt. His timing is off atm, his 2 misses from Lennon crosses show this, but he's finding the right positions so it is only a matter of time really.
What I'm really loving about him though is the obvious joy he gets from his team mates' scoring. Really looks to be a popular part of the team to me.
 

Gbspurs

Gatekeeper for debates, King of the plonkers
Jan 27, 2011
26,971
61,861
I've seen this comment on here a few times about Sherwood and questioned the assertions due to the fact that we had seen very little to either back the claim up or question it. After the last few games though, and particularly after the ManU performance, I'm wondering whether those that made the claims are seeing what I'm seeing, or if they are stubbornly holding onto the 'belief' as, let's face it, that is all it was based on so few games to formulate an analytical viewpoint.
Often we have seen the assertion that playing 442 will see us whacked by the better sides. The reality of the situation is that 442 is how we have set up, not how we have played. Other posters, apologies as I can't recall who, have put up our average pitch position monitors showing that, despite the initial set up, we are really playing more of a 433 and this is something I noted against Utd with Eriksen appearing to play more as an lf than a traditional lm.
The othe thing I noted was that many of the players were more fluid in their movement but with the overall shape of the team never really being lost.
Now call me naive, but this, in my experience, isn't accidental but a defined way of playing that, it seems, the players are immensely comfortable with and is a way of playing that we have been crying out for.
So, we have a team that, whilst maybe not retaining the amount of possession that was a hallmark of the AVB approach, is managing to dictate the flow of most games, is attacking with guile, adventure and purpose, is fluid across the pitch, is showing intelligence in increasing quantities and is doing all of this when being down to a squad of 16, 15 if you count the warm up injury to Naughton.
I'm not attributing all of this to Sherwood, as the basis for this was set by AVB really, but I'm finding what I am watching more and more encouraging. The way we kept Utd at arms length for the majority of the game also showed me that we are not reliant on a possession based game but that we can alter our tactics/style of play to suit the opposition.

So, overall, I'm saying that I have been impressed with the way the team is being 'managed' up until now and kudos should go to the entire management team for showing what I believe is far from tactical naivety but shows quite a mature understanding of the players available, the style of Football they, and we, want played and the ability to, so far, make the right decisions depending on the opposition, all with a hugely depleted squad.

Yes, I know it is early days, but there is still enough there to show that, for now at least, we are moving in the right direction.

Thoughts?

Andre?
 

atlSPURSfan

Active Member
Aug 31, 2011
107
237
For the record, what we've been running recently is more or less a 4-3-3. Formations can be very fluid.

To me, the most important thing is a mindset. If you have every player committed to tracking back and pressuring to get possession and looking to attack when in possession, tactics are secondary.
 

Lilbaz

Just call me Baz
Apr 1, 2005
41,363
74,893
Can someone tell me why we should have one formation during a game?

The best football i've seen played was under harry. When lennon and bale were swapping wings, ade was at times on the left wing, walker was on the right wing. I had no idea what formation we were but we were winning.
 

LeSoupeKitchen

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2011
3,107
7,642
The most exciting thing for me is Sherwood saying, "there's more than one way to win a football match".

As for Ade, he was sensational the entire 2011/2012 season so if Sherwood is on his good side I see no reason for him to suddenly go cold.
 

Lilbaz

Just call me Baz
Apr 1, 2005
41,363
74,893
The most exciting thing for me is Sherwood saying, "there's more than one way to win a football match".

As for Ade, he was sensational the entire 2011/2012 season so if Sherwood is on his good side I see no reason for him to suddenly go cold.

Thought the only way to win was by scoring more than the opposition?

If tims found a new way, he truly is a genius.
 

KILLA_SIN

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2008
7,909
14,631
For the record, what we've been running recently is more or less a 4-3-3. Formations can be very fluid.

To me, the most important thing is a mindset. If you have every player committed to tracking back and pressuring to get possession and looking to attack when in possession, tactics are secondary.

TBH though the way we started the game yday we were hardly pressing at all abd I thought we were set for a defeat
 

DEFchenkOE

Well-Known Member
Feb 13, 2006
10,527
8,052
At least we now look dangerous on the counter-attack again, this season under AVB we've looked like a team that has no idea how to counter as we passed sideways and backwards allowing the opposition to get back in their positions. Now we look like a threat on the break which is pleasing.
 

Black

Well-Known Member
May 21, 2007
4,807
4,872
At least we now look dangerous on the counter-attack again, this season under AVB we've looked like a team that has no idea how to counter as we passed sideways and backwards allowing the opposition to get back in their positions. Now we look like a threat on the break which is pleasing.


We look dangerous full stop
 
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