The 50+1 Rule petition: If we want to have a say and stop ENIC stripping profit from the club sign this!

[ralphs bald spot]

Please go into any match day thread and tell me you want our fans to have 51% control of our club

to be honest I for one would just gamble it away and spend the rest of it on a mixture of beer a huge contract for washing the kit for the missus - I think on balance you might all prefer ENIC

 

[vegassd]

They would be forced to sell shares to fans at a fair rate approved by the government if it became law. its better than doing nothing and just whinging continuously at least it would keep up the message that fans are done with the elite stealing the game.

You are right that this will achieve more than people whinging on the Internet, but at the same time if there isn't a proper fan body setup to back this motion up then it does equate to the same thing. Real change in government comes through lobbying - whether that is from a fans trust or just a single person.

Consider the amount of effort it takes to create and share an online petition.... not much. So why would anybody take it that seriously?

In short, the internet is a very handy place for people to vent their frustrations but it isn't particularly effective at getting stuff done in the real world. If an individual is only willing to take action from their own armchair or phone it's likely a good sign that they aren't actually that interested in the outcome.

On the topic of 50+1, how would you see it being handled? Would it apply to every single club in the pyramid - including non-league clubs? Would the system see a club go out of business if it's illegal for an individual to save it via investment? If it was just for the PL clubs how would you deal with a lower club in private ownership rising up like RB Leipzig?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to have a go at you personally. But I feel that there is a bit of a misconception that 50+1 would solve a lot of problems and would mean Spurs sign the players that you or I or anyone wants. And all of that will happen without anybody having to leave their living rooms. The biggest impact will be made when people start to organise themselves physically.

 

[carpediem991]

The 50+1% rule that works in Germany is often misunderstood. The fans do not own the 51% and therefore they decide who will be bought and were we invest money in. The rule just says that the club and its members need to hold at least 51% of the rights. The club has a set of rules based on their values and based on legal rules. So they basically vote every 2/3 years their president and need to be included in major decisions that could risk the well being of the club. Such as a Super League participation.
But otherwise as I said they have no say or influence in any day business stuff such as decisions about players, managers or investments. RB Leipzig for example managed to avoid that rule a bit by just not allowing any more people to join the club as official members. I think the club consists of about 10 members, the board.



Still I think that rule is great and important but there is basically no way to force that through now. Enic bought for a certain amount of money their full shares. How can you now just take 51% away of them because you want?

 

[ralphs bald spot]

You are right that this will achieve more than people whinging on the Internet, but at the same time if there isn't a proper fan body setup to back this motion up then it does equate to the same thing. Real change in government comes through lobbying - whether that is from a fans trust or just a single person.

Consider the amount of effort it takes to create and share an online petition.... not much. So why would anybody take it that seriously?

In short, the internet is a very handy place for people to vent their frustrations but it isn't particularly effective at getting stuff done in the real world. If an individual is only willing to take action from their own armchair or phone it's likely a good sign that they aren't actually that interested in the outcome.

On the topic of 50+1, how would you see it being handled? Would it apply to every single club in the pyramid - including non-league clubs? Would the system see a club go out of business if it's illegal for an individual to save it via investment? If it was just for the PL clubs how would you deal with a lower club in private ownership rising up like RB Leipzig?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to have a go at you personally. But I feel that there is a bit of a misconception that 50+1 would solve a lot of problems and would mean Spurs sign the players that you or I or anyone wants. And all of that will happen without anybody having to leave their living rooms. The biggest impact will be m
ade when people start to organise themselves physically.

One of the great white lies ' is that football is about the fans' its not its about money - the only time a football club really cares about you is when you don't go to games or these days drop your tv subscriptions

You can't hope that the government is going to support you in protecting what exactly? Football clubs that few people watch there wasn't exactly outcry when Bury went to the wall. The big clubs are moving towards a break away league its almost inevitable imo where does it leave the rest I don;t know

 

[Trix]

It's pie in the sky nonsense really isn't it, I don't know how it would work over here.

It wouldnt

 

[Trix]

I'd much rather see the fans having a stronger input within the governing bodies than at the club's themselves.

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

There is a much cheaper way to influence the actions of the club - stop supporting them financially.

Stop buying season tickets.

Stop going to games.

Stop spending money on concessions at the stadium.

Stop buying shirts and other merchandise.

Cancel your Sky subscription.

 

[FibreOpticJesus]

There is a much cheaper way to influence the actions of the club - stop supporting them financially.

Stop buying season tickets.

Stop going to games.

Stop spending money on concessions at the stadium.

Stop buying shirts and other merchandise.

Cancel your Sky subscription.

All tv subscriptions

 

[Neon_Knight_]

ENIC is not stripping profit out of the club.

The last accounts showed the club losing £68m in the year and the latest year’s results will be worse when published.

ENIC has never taken funds out of the club.

Now you can argue that ENIC are incompetent and not running the club well but unlike FSG at Liverpool and the Kroenkes at Arsenal they have not so far tried to take money out of the club.

There is perhaps reason to sign the petition even if ENIC's ownership isn't considered a problem - for the good of football in general. The 50+1 rule would have prevented the Glazer's hostile takeover of Man Utd.

 

[Neon_Knight_]

There is a much cheaper way to influence the actions of the club - stop supporting them financially.

Stop buying season tickets.

Stop going to games.

Stop spending money on concessions at the stadium.

Stop buying shirts and other merchandise.

Cancel your Sky subscription.

That might work if there weren't thousands of fans on the season ticket waiting list.

 

[Nebby]

There is a much cheaper way to influence the actions of the club - stop supporting them financially.

Stop buying season tickets.

Stop going to games.

Stop spending money on concessions at the stadium.

Stop buying shirts and other merchandise.

Cancel your Sky subscription.

So destroy the thing we love in order to save the thing we love?

 

[RJR1949]

Here are 2 ways in which the regulation of football could be improved to fans' benefit.

1. Require Every Club to Have A "Heritage and Monitoring Board". This board would:
   1. Be elected by the fans (say by season ticket holders).
   2. Would have the right of veto over fundamental changes to the club - what competitions the club plays in, where the club is located, the club's name and the club's colours.
   3. Have to be consulted before the club entered into any contracts with the owners or other institutions, businesses or clubs associated with the owners. Be able to raise any issues with an independent regulator before these contracts came into force
   4. Have the right to see and ask questions about the club's financial statements on at least a quarterly basis.
2. Have financial fair play regulations with teeth. This would require:
   1. An independent regulator (not the FA which depends on the PL clubs for players for he national team and financing and which lacks the skills to regulate financial fair play effectively)
   2. Controls to stop the financial fair play rules being evaded by sweetheart deals with connected persons (so clubs cannot cheat by getting other clubs or businesses over which they have influence to buy players for inflated fees, pay for the use of the club's name, or enter into inflated commercial contracts). One way of doing this could be to base the financial fair play test just on gate and TV money.
   3. Beaches of the rules being punished promptly by a loss of points that hurts and the banning of the administrative staff involved from working in football.

All this could be done quickly by the government. It would be much easier than trying to require the owners of the clubs to sell or gift their shares to the fans.

Finally, the Premier League clubs are valued as highly as they are because the Americans expect that one day a move like Project Big Picture or the ESL will work and they'll be able to take lots of cash out of English football. Simply having Heritage and Monitoring boards would sop this and the market value of the clubs will fall.

 

[Nebby]

Here are 2 ways in which the regulation of football could be improved to fans' benefit.

1. Require Every Club to Have A "Heritage and Monitoring Board". This board would:
   1. Be elected by the fans (say by season ticket holders).
   2. Would have the right of veto over fundamental changes to the club - what competitions the club plays in, where the club is located, the club's name and the club's colours.
   3. Have to be consulted before the club entered into any contracts with the owners or other institutions, businesses or clubs associated with the owners. Be able to raise any issues with an independent regulator before these contracts came into force
   4. Have the right to see and ask questions about the club's financial statements on at least a quarterly basis.
2. Have financial fair play regulations with teeth. This would require:
   1. An independent regulator (not the FA which depends on the PL clubs for players for he national team and financing and which lacks the skills to regulate financial fair play effectively)
   2. Controls to stop the financial fair play rules being evaded by sweetheart deals with connected persons (so clubs cannot cheat by getting other clubs or businesses over which they have influence to buy players for inflated fees, pay for the use of the club's name, or enter into inflated commercial contracts). One way of doing this could be to base the financial fair play test just on gate and TV money.
   3. Beaches of the rules being punished promptly by a loss of points that hurts and the banning of the administrative staff involved from working in football.

All this could be done quickly by the government. It would be much easier than trying to require the owners of the clubs to sell or gift their shares to the fans.

Finally, the Premier League clubs are valued as highly as they are because the Americans expect that one day a move like Project Big Picture or the ESL will work and they'll be able to take lots of cash out of English football. Simply having Heritage and Monitoring boards would sop this and the market value of the clubs will fall.

There's no way this could be done quickly by this Government or any Government. There are 90 odd clubs in the league, and the finances and management structures of most would leave even the most competent set of auditors and accountants weeping in the corner. This is a nightmare that the Government will run away from as soon as it possibly can. And nobody will ever invest in any club in any meaningful way if it means decisions can be vetoed by somebody with zero to lose financially. And it's also worth remembering that the THST argued against corporate boxes being introduced at WHL. Without those boxes and the inward investment they delivered, the club would have gone bust and wouldn't exist today.

 

[RJR1949]

There's no way this could be done quickly by this Government or any Government. There are 90 odd clubs in the league, and the finances and management structures of most would leave even the most competent set of auditors and accountants weeping in the corner. This is a nightmare that the Government will run away from as soon as it possibly can. And nobody will ever invest in any club in any meaningful way if it means decisions can be vetoed by somebody with zero to lose financially. And it's also worth remembering that the THST argued against corporate boxes being introduced at WHL. Without those boxes and the inward investment they delivered, the club would have gone bust and wouldn't exist today.

I was careful in setting out what decisions could be vetoed - just those decisions that would fundamentally change the heritage of the clubs. I wouldn't have put the opening of Executive boxes into this category. But changing the competitions in which the club competes would be subject to a veto and this is necessary to stop schemes like the ESL and Project Big Picture.

And really it would not be hard to make these changes.

 

[ReadieSpur]

I'm personally quite happy with ENIC. I have seen how far we have come under their ownership. They have put all the mechanisms in place for us to begin competing with the big clubs. lets see how that transpires.

 

[Bulletspur]

ENIC is not stripping profit out of the club.

The last accounts showed the club losing £68m in the year and the latest year’s results will be worse when published.

ENIC has never taken funds out of the club.

Now you can argue that ENIC are incompetent and not running the club well but unlike FSG at Liverpool and the Kroenkes at Arsenal they have not so far tried to take money out of the club.

You need to tell the post starter who it seems have not thought this through before posting.

 

[mumfordspur]

I think the stripping profit bit is misleading.
I know Levy pays himself handsomely well above the rate for a 6th placed team but that is not really apt.
I also know ENIC have now got fantastic real estate in London which has hampered the acquisition of players but I still dont see this as stripping profit.
For the poster who says both our last managers said "it's difficult" I give you Skriniar for Jose & Dyabala for Pochettino.
I am absolutely sure there are loads more but I remember those 2 well.

My annoyance at dear old Bullet the other day about pouring millions in was this stadium shit.
In my eyes they build a fantastic structure and when they sell they take the profit - it is not the property of the football club. As I say this is my take I would love someone to say "actually........................"

 

[McFlash]

Some people can never appreciate what we've actually got, instead they're always looking for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
ENIC are not the problem, for us or for the rest of the league. Let's look to rid the criminals from the game before we start bitching about the legitimate businesses who've spent 2 decades improving their investment.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

Some people can never appreciate what we've actually got, instead they're always looking for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
ENIC are not the problem, for us or for the rest of the league. Let's look to rid the criminals from the game before we start bitching about the legitimate businesses who've spent 2 decades improving their investment.

I think you're right, there are other things, worse things, but two wrongs don't, never have and never will make a right. I'm not suggesting you're saying there isn't. If people want to (quite rightly in my onion) express dissatisfaction or complain about ENIC, should they shut up because the owners of another football club have a much dodgier track record?

Football in general stinks. We all know that but boil it down to it's most basic, we're Spurs fans on a Spurs forum, discussing Spurs. Where else should people do this? Does it mean any complaint can now be watered down to this? ENIC are shit, ahhh yes, but look at City's owners/there's corruption at FIFA..... complain about them first................

I don't get this kind of sentiment at all and we're seeing it more and more so is it me, am I out of touch or something? Have I finally lost my marbles and am that ancient bloke sitting in the corner of the pub mumbling 'back in the good old days' at everything?

Effectively it's "don't complain about this because that is worse". The trouble is, there's always something worse.

Maybe i'm reading too much into it, perhaps this is the latest BSoDL deflection tactic. If it is it's fucking smelly

 

[McFlash]

I think you're right, there are other things, worse things, but two wrongs don't, never have and never will make a right. I'm not suggesting you're saying there isn't. If people want to (quite rightly in my onion) express dissatisfaction or complain about ENIC, should they shut up because the owners of another football club have a much dodgier track record?

Football in general stinks. We all know that but boil it down to it's most basic, we're Spurs fans on a Spurs forum, discussing Spurs. Where else should people do this? Does it mean any complaint can now be watered down to this? ENIC are shit, ahhh yes, but look at City's owners/there's corruption at FIFA..... complain about them first................

I don't get this kind of sentiment at all and we're seeing it more and more so is it me, am I out of touch or something? Have I finally lost my marbles and am that ancient bloke sitting in the corner of the pub mumbling 'back in the good old days' at everything?

Effectively it's "don't complain about this because that is worse". The trouble is, there's always something worse.

Maybe i'm reading too much into it, perhaps this is the latest BSoDL deflection tactic. If it is it's fucking smelly

No, you're totally right and I can completely understand why people are pissed off with ENIC, they piss me off sometimes too.
I just think they've done pretty good for the club during their tenure and with the stadium finally finished, we were looking actually looking like we would've been spending. The pandemic fucked that for us.

I guess that I want to give them the chance of having a fully operational stadium for a year, then see what they do from there.
In the meantime though, I'm not against fans showing them how they feel at present. It can't be a bad thing for them to know that fans aren't happy with them.