The beginning of the end...

[Hotspur88]

WOW....so that I don't have to go through 65 pages, has there been any ITK in this thread to get to this many pages?

 

[@Bobby__Lucky]

Other than much earlier in the thread these comments are my opinion which is quite clear... furthermore im not sure how im stoking any fires, im offering my opinion as a life long fan and how i see it.

Val, I've interpreted all your comments since the information received post as opinion. As this is an opinion based exchange may I ask. Do you think that Kanes form and lethargic play is down to the same problem. Could you see kane coming to life under a different strategist, or do you think Kanes form is isolated to his own failings?

 

[Gassin's finest]

WOW....so that I don't have to go through 65 pages, has there been any ITK in this thread to get to this many pages?

Nah

 

[Metalhead]

WOW....so that I don't have to go through 65 pages, has there been any ITK in this thread to get to this many pages?

A little bit.

 

[Timberwolf]

Regardless of our terrible form and whether us fans think Poch should stay or go, I don't think we'll see any changes for a while. Levy and Poch have had their ups and downs but they clearly have a mutual respect for one another and have reportedly been on holiday together. That bond between manager in chairman is fairly unique and, while Levy is a cold, calculating businessman who will make his decision based on results, there's no way he'll be rushing to get rid of Poch, nor should he.

A bad defeat against Arsenal would obviously worsen matters, but we won't see any change until our top 4 status is seriously under threat.

 

[ValenciaYid]

Val, I've interpreted all your comments since the information received post as opinion. As this is an opinion based exchange may I ask. Do you think that Kanes form and lethargic play is down to the same problem. Could you see kane coming to life under a different strategist, or do you think Kanes form is isolated to his own failings?

Yes personally i think his form is down to the same problems, the way things are currently... Poch can change it all, he has shown us after all how great things can be, he has the ability, im just at a loss as to why we look so different from the team that used to excite us so much.

 

[The Long Suffering One]

If it's true he has lost the lads, I wonder if one of the defining reasons is giving Lucas the CL final snub in favour of Kane..

 

[mike_l]

I'd love for Poch to turn it round and stay for many years to come, and if it was just a poor start to this season then this chatter would be ludicrous, but a whole half a season of poor form from last season has carried through to the new one with no sign of it changing. Even when we were winning earlier last season the performances were poor with moments of magic from individuals scraping us through.

The guy himself just seems different, like he's been kidnapped and replaced with Evil Poch from earth-22, who's moody, wears all black and just isn't a very good football coach...

 

[Primativ]

Absolutely- it’s the performances that count. I keep going back to how flat we were in the CL final- arguably one of the greatest occasions of our players professional careers and we bombed. You’d imagine that would be a wake up call for Poch and the team but that doesn’t seem to be the case.

Like just about everyone else, I pray Poch rediscovers his verve and drive, his original philosophy and value system that made us so dangerous and exciting to watch. But how long can we sustain these wishes?

And I really don’t want Mourinho. The irony of letting go of Poch because he’s lost the dressing room and replacing him with Mourinho reeks of old Tottenham dumbfuckery

Spot on. The CL final was a signal to me that things are worryingly wrong. We didn’t even turn up. I just don’t get how a team can put in such a non event performance. Beggars belief. Then you look at the rest of the performances since Jan, (and even further back), and look at the three performances this season, I think Poch is fast approaching borrowed time. Levy must surely be aware of all of this.

 

[WalkerboyUK]

We completely dominated 2 other PL teams. On another day against Newcastle we get a pen or Kane and Lucas bury there chances.

We had 80% possession, most of which was in the opponents half.

How many other PL teams are capable of that? Other than ourselves,city and Liverpool.


We were out played by probably the best team on the planet at the moment,but didn’t give up and got rewards.

Let’s see how the next few fixtures go. We’ve been here before with poch and poor starts to a season. We always improve.

Having 80% of possession is meaningless when all we do with it is pass sideways/backwards.
We lack a cutting edge at the moment, and I can't for the life of me figure out how that's possible with the squad we have, other than from complete tactical ineptitude.
As has already been said, losing on Sunday completely negated the point we got at City. If that's the way our season is going to be, then top 4 is going to be huge struggle.

I don't think Levy will be too concerned yet, but a defeat in the NLD, taking us into the international break, will not be looked upon favourably.

 

[0-Tibsy-0]

Yay - we've got our Tottenham back.

 

[Gassin's finest]

Yes personally i think his form is down to the same problems, the way things are currently... Poch can change it all, he has shown us after all how great things can be, he has the ability, im just at a loss as to why we look so different from the team that used to excite us so much.

We've lost at least 4 of the key players from that team?

 

[Timberwolf]

Our play has been stagnant for a while, but in my opinion our biggest issue in the 2nd half of last season, when our terrible form began, was our central midfield. We didn't replace Dembele and lost his unique ability to retain possession and beat men in the middle of the park - a position in which he was literally one of the best in the world. We also lost Dier and, for all his failings, we've really missed the positional cover he provided us. We didn't always play great with those 2 in the middle, but they were tall, tough bastards who could defend corners, win headers and cover well. The two of them were a core part of both our defensive solidity and, in Dembele, our ability to break the lines.

In replacing them with Winks and Sissoko we lost that positional discipline and defensive solidity. Winks is a tidy little player but he doesn't really provide anything going forward or defensively - he just keeps the ball ticking over. Sissoko is a great athlete and his runs forward were vital last season but for a club with our aspirations he's simply not good enough at CM. He's a pedestrian passer, loses the ball multiple times a game, and doesn't have a real defensive instinct. If he's not making runs forward, he's not doing much.

In previous seasons we often looked shit against defensive teams, even going back 3/4 years, but the difference was we had just enough of an edge to beat them. Our defence was both rock solid and provided with real protection, and this gave us a base to build from. Now that we've lost that base, the pendulum has swung and games we were winning by small margins we are losing by small margins.

This is where I'm hopeful. Ndombele is a huuuge improvement in this area of the pitch and it's no surprise that he was a the catalyst for our comeback against Villa. He can keep the ball, has vision and makes things happen. If we're to turn this run of bad form around he will be the lynchpin. We might also have to consider bringing Dier back into the team as, for all of Winks' endeavour, I don't think he provides us enough defensive protection and our bad run of form coincides with us not playing a proper CDM. Sissoko should always be a squad player IMO and should not be a first teamer.

Our forward play is a whole other story and also a huge concern as we look limp, uninspired and poorly coached at the moment. However, I think this central midfield issue is THE fundamental reason for our downturn in form over the past year, along with Poch's subsequent obsession with the diamond which has only exacerbated our problems.

 

[Khilari]

A long thread! To keep it simple, IMO:

• We seem to miss a Dier/Wanyama type force in the midfield who really solidifies our defence. Neither Sissoko nor Winks perform that role well though Ndombele could if played there.
• After his unexpected debut season success, Sanchez shows his defence naïvety when it comes to positioning.
• Lamela shows he's good when injury free but not creative enough to start phases of attacking play (final ball is better).
• We miss Dele.
• The high of an unexpected CL final beyond all our expectations has been brought back down to earth. Our team did wonders in a cup competition where luck and desire can get you through. The EPL however shows us where we are at the moment. Average (form wise).

 

[@Bobby__Lucky]

Yes personally i think his form is down to the same problems, the way things are currently... Poch can change it all, he has shown us after all how great things can be, he has the ability, im just at a loss as to why we look so different from the team that used to excite us so much.

In my opinion we often play too conservatively and within ourselves. Barcelona away was a good example. We we so conservative until it was absolute we needed a goal. Poch made changes galore and we played with such venom it was unclear why we hadn't previously.

I think the juve game was a turning point the season before where he saw a team playing safe sucker his team. We haven't been adventurous and maverick since.

We always look a better team when we go for it, press from the front and look to dominate teams rather than bore them into submission. Whether this was a small squad issue or something else, I think this boring safe football is actually boring our own players.

 

[wrd]

Our play has been stagnant for a while, but in my opinion our biggest issue in the 2nd half of last season, when our terrible form began, was our central midfield. We didn't replace Dembele and lost his unique ability to retain possession and beat men in the middle of the park - a position in which he was literally one of the best in the world. We also lost Dier and, for all his failings, we've really missed the positional cover he provided us. We didn't always play great with those 2 in the middle, but they were tall, tough bastards who could defend corners, win headers and cover well. The two of them were a core part of both our defensive solidity and, in Dembele, our ability to break the lines.

In replacing them with Winks and Sissoko we lost that positional discipline and defensive solidity. Winks is a tidy little player but he doesn't really provide anything going forward or defensively - he just keeps the ball ticking over. Sissoko is a great athlete and his runs forward were vital last season but for a club with our aspirations he's simply not good enough at CM. He's a pedestrian passer, loses the ball multiple times a game, and doesn't have a real defensive instinct. If he's not making runs forward, he's not doing much.

In previous seasons we often looked shit against defensive teams, even going back 3/4 years, but the difference was we had just enough of an edge to beat them. Our defence was both rock solid and provided real protection, and this gave us a base to build from. Now that we've lost that base, the pendulum has swung and games we were winning by small margins we are losing by small margins.

This is where I'm hopeful. Ndombele is a huuuge improvement in this area of the pitch and it's no surprise that he was a the catalyst for our comeback against Villa. He can keep the ball, has vision and makes things happen. If we're to turn this run of bad form around he will be the lynchpin. We might also have to consider bringing Dier back into the team as, for all of Winks' endeavour, I don't think he provides us enough defensive protection and our bad run of form coincides with us not playing a proper CDM. Sissoko should always be a squad player IMO and should not be a first teamer.

Our forward play is a whole other story and also a huge concern as we look limp, uninspired and poorly coached at the moment. However, I think this central midfield issue is THE fundamental reason for our downturn in form over the past year, along with Poch's subsequent obsession with the diamond which has only exacerbated our problems.

Absolutely agree with all of this, Dembele was our main man and with the space he created allowed Eriksen a freedom to be our metronome whilst our other midfielder provided the shield.

One of the key issues I have is that Poch talks up being brave but his selections in midfield are anything but, he always prefers to go with the two safer midfielders, now that's fine when it's Dembele there who was so unique in football but Sissoko / Winks together is so ridiculously safe to the point where it is neither one thing or another. Now with Ndombele you get around the issue of a lack of Eriksen because eventually he is going to offer significantly more going forward than we are used to but it's absolutely unacceptable to have a Winks / Sissoko pivot and then not have a playmaker infront of them.

The fact that neither of them are purely defensive either means neither of them takes the responsibility as the person who is meant to drive us forward, I wonder if Dier was next to Winks if Winks would take it upon himself more to be braver on the ball.

 

[doctor stefan Freud]

Our play has been stagnant for a while, but in my opinion our biggest issue in the 2nd half of last season, when our terrible form began, was our central midfield. We didn't replace Dembele and lost his unique ability to retain possession and beat men in the middle of the park - a position in which he was literally one of the best in the world. We also lost Dier and, for all his failings, we've really missed the positional cover he provided us. We didn't always play great with those 2 in the middle, but they were tall, tough bastards who could defend corners, win headers and cover well. The two of them were a core part of both our defensive solidity and, in Dembele, our ability to break the lines.

In replacing them with Winks and Sissoko we lost that positional discipline and defensive solidity. Winks is a tidy little player but he doesn't really provide anything going forward or defensively - he just keeps the ball ticking over. Sissoko is a great athlete and his runs forward were vital last season but for a club with our aspirations he's simply not good enough at CM. He's a pedestrian passer, loses the ball multiple times a game, and doesn't have a real defensive instinct. If he's not making runs forward, he's not doing much.

In previous seasons we often looked shit against defensive teams, even going back 3/4 years, but the difference was we had just enough of an edge to beat them. Our defence was both rock solid and provided real protection, and this gave us a base to build from. Now that we've lost that base, the pendulum has swung and games we were winning by small margins we are losing by small margins.

This is where I'm hopeful. Ndombele is a huuuge improvement in this area of the pitch and it's no surprise that he was a the catalyst for our comeback against Villa. He can keep the ball, has vision and makes things happen. If we're to turn this run of bad form around he will be the lynchpin. We might also have to consider bringing Dier back into the team as, for all of Winks' endeavour, I don't think he provides us enough defensive protection and our bad run of form coincides with us not playing a proper CDM. Sissoko should always be a squad player IMO and should not be a first teamer.

Our forward play is a whole other story and also a huge concern as we look limp, uninspired and poorly coached at the moment. However, I think this central midfield issue is THE fundamental reason for our downturn in form over the past year, along with Poch's subsequent obsession with the diamond which has only exacerbated our problems.

Excellent post. It definitely covers one of the fundamental issues of our downturn.

Equally, Poch needs to re-engage the squad and get them ticking again. Certainly from an attacking perspective. And if something can be made of a Ndombele/Dier axis then patience will be needed

 

[Timberwolf]

Absolutely agree with all of this, Dembele was our main man and with the space he created allowed Eriksen a freedom to be our metronome whilst our other midfielder provided the shield.

One of the key issues I have is that Poch talks up being brave but his selections in midfield are anything but, he always prefers to go with the two safer midfielders, now that's fine when it's Dembele there who was so unique in football but Sissoko / Winks together is so ridiculously safe to the point where it is neither one thing or another. Now with Ndombele you get around the issue of a lack of Eriksen because eventually he is going to offer significantly more going forward than we are used to but it's absolutely unacceptable to have a Winks / Sissoko pivot and then not have a playmaker infront of them.

The fact that neither of them are purely defensive either means neither of them takes the responsibility as the person who is meant to drive us forward, I wonder if Dier was next to Winks if Winks would take it upon himself more to be braver on the ball.

Yeah, ironically they're completely 'safe' passers of the ball but not remotely safe when it comes to the defensive side of things. When teams break against us these days I always feel we look vulnerable through the middle. That didn't used to be the case.

 

[Gassin's finest]

Our play has been stagnant for a while, but in my opinion our biggest issue in the 2nd half of last season, when our terrible form began, was our central midfield. We didn't replace Dembele and lost his unique ability to retain possession and beat men in the middle of the park - a position in which he was literally one of the best in the world. We also lost Dier and, for all his failings, we've really missed the positional cover he provided us. We didn't always play great with those 2 in the middle, but they were tall, tough bastards who could defend corners, win headers and cover well. The two of them were a core part of both our defensive solidity and, in Dembele, our ability to break the lines.

In replacing them with Winks and Sissoko we lost that positional discipline and defensive solidity. Winks is a tidy little player but he doesn't really provide anything going forward or defensively - he just keeps the ball ticking over. Sissoko is a great athlete and his runs forward were vital last season but for a club with our aspirations he's simply not good enough at CM. He's a pedestrian passer, loses the ball multiple times a game, and doesn't have a real defensive instinct. If he's not making runs forward, he's not doing much.

In previous seasons we often looked shit against defensive teams, even going back 3/4 years, but the difference was we had just enough of an edge to beat them. Our defence was both rock solid and provided with real protection, and this gave us a base to build from. Now that we've lost that base, the pendulum has swung and games we were winning by small margins we are losing by small margins.

This is where I'm hopeful. Ndombele is a huuuge improvement in this area of the pitch and it's no surprise that he was a the catalyst for our comeback against Villa. He can keep the ball, has vision and makes things happen. If we're to turn this run of bad form around he will be the lynchpin. We might also have to consider bringing Dier back into the team as, for all of Winks' endeavour, I don't think he provides us enough defensive protection and our bad run of form coincides with us not playing a proper CDM. Sissoko should always be a squad player IMO and should not be a first teamer.

Our forward play is a whole other story and also a huge concern as we look limp, uninspired and poorly coached at the moment. However, I think this central midfield issue is THE fundamental reason for our downturn in form over the past year, along with Poch's subsequent obsession with the diamond which has only exacerbated our problems.

It really is this simple.

I'm sure people don't forget how much we relied on Dembele, and took what he did for granted.

 

[pablo73]

Absolutely agree with all of this, Dembele was our main man and with the space he created allowed Eriksen a freedom to be our metronome whilst our other midfielder provided the shield.

One of the key issues I have is that Poch talks up being brave but his selections in midfield are anything but, he always prefers to go with the two safer midfielders, now that's fine when it's Dembele there who was so unique in football but Sissoko / Winks together is so ridiculously safe to the point where it is neither one thing or another. Now with Ndombele you get around the issue of a lack of Eriksen because eventually he is going to offer significantly more going forward than we are used to but it's absolutely unacceptable to have a Winks / Sissoko pivot and then not have a playmaker infront of them.

The fact that neither of them are purely defensive either means neither of them takes the responsibility as the person who is meant to drive us forward, I wonder if Dier was next to Winks if Winks would take it upon himself more to be braver on the ball.

This really grinds my gears as well