fortworthspur
Well-Known Member
- Nov 12, 2007
- 11,248
- 17,550
dunno about GOAT but Zidane against Brazil in 1998 is the best individual performance I can recall.
The GOAT
- Thread starter yusrisafri
- Start date
Messi for me, easily. Very easily.
Now this is on players i've seen play, Maradona and Pele not being two. I've watched clips of them and while obviously brilliant players, I still can't see past Messi.
One thing I don't get is when people say that back in the days of Pele, Maradona, they used to get butchered by defenders etc to make a case for them. I've watched Messi pretty much his whole career and this guy has got booted up and down the pitch multiple times over the years and for years did his best to NEVER go down and just got on with it, trying his best to just keep going. All you have to do is search "Lionel Messi never dives" on youtube and watch that video.(Btw I'm not suggesting he's never dived in his career, but for years he did his absolute best not to).
It's all a matter of opinion at the end of the day and everyone is going to have ones that differ. Having said that, I can't trust anyone that doesn't believe Messi shouldn't at least be very very much in the conversation ? I think once he retires and 20-30 years down the line, he'll be considered the best ever outright. One of those things we're he's not as appreciated I feel as he should be as he's still around and playing.
91 goals in a calender year also. It's nearly as much as some strikers will score in their careers haha.
Now this is on players i've seen play, Maradona and Pele not being two. I've watched clips of them and while obviously brilliant players, I still can't see past Messi.
One thing I don't get is when people say that back in the days of Pele, Maradona, they used to get butchered by defenders etc to make a case for them. I've watched Messi pretty much his whole career and this guy has got booted up and down the pitch multiple times over the years and for years did his best to NEVER go down and just got on with it, trying his best to just keep going. All you have to do is search "Lionel Messi never dives" on youtube and watch that video.(Btw I'm not suggesting he's never dived in his career, but for years he did his absolute best not to).
It's all a matter of opinion at the end of the day and everyone is going to have ones that differ. Having said that, I can't trust anyone that doesn't believe Messi shouldn't at least be very very much in the conversation ? I think once he retires and 20-30 years down the line, he'll be considered the best ever outright. One of those things we're he's not as appreciated I feel as he should be as he's still around and playing.
91 goals in a calender year also. It's nearly as much as some strikers will score in their careers haha.
easley91
Well-Known Member
- Jan 27, 2011
- 19,087
- 54,793
Much like in any sport or industry, it's down to age of the watcher and opinions. I never saw Pele, Maradona, Greaves etc. But I have seen Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Messi, Zidane, Cristiano Ronaldo.
It's all moot anyways as the GOAT is the ginger Pele Gary Doherty.
It's all moot anyways as the GOAT is the ginger Pele Gary Doherty.
brasil_spur
SC Supporter
- Aug 25, 2006
- 12,710
- 16,809
1) Pele
2) Messi
3) Maradonna
4) Ronaldo (the real one)
5) Ronaldo (the Portuguese one)
2) Messi
3) Maradonna
4) Ronaldo (the real one)
5) Ronaldo (the Portuguese one)
Flobadob
Well-Known Member
- Jul 22, 2014
- 3,629
- 12,352
The only players I’ve watched from back in the day that pass the eye test as being close to what we have today are Cruyff and Maradona. Watching Pele and Best, the standard just looks so so bad compared to today. Maradona looks to me like the best of the lot that didn’t play in the modern era. Just my opinion from what I’ve watched
brasil_spur
SC Supporter
- Aug 25, 2006
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Need to watch more Pele. Forget the standard for a minute, as some of what he played against was a bit ropey, albeit the quality of the pitches and the balls back then was something else entirely, but the amount of "world firsts" he brought to the modern game is eye watering. There's almost no trick, skill or move that exists today that Pele didn't bring to the game first, including the Cruyff turn. Also you have to remember that the actual filming of sport adds a huge amount to how we perceive player's skills. Repeated slow motions in super high definition of Messi's flick to setup their second goal on Sunday is great, but Pele did this multiple times per game in just about every game, but the camera angles, slow mo, high def and post match analysis simply weren't what they are today.
It's also worth noting that Pele achieved his greatest feats (the 1970 world cup being the main one) against a very scary social back drop. Brazil was under a military dictatorship from 1964 - 1985, during which time a lot of popular figures were tortured or exiled (almost all musicians fled to Europe/US) during this period. It's hard to reconcile now, but the social achievement of winning that 3rd world cup for Brazil under those circumstances was immense.
Messi has undoubtedly been the best player of the current generation, and getting the world cup win two days ago has certainly helped to get him very close to the GOAT. But for me, it would take more than what Messi has achieved in his career to surpass Pele.
rossdapep
Well-Known Member
- Aug 25, 2011
- 22,192
- 79,790
yeah that's why I rank Pele so highly. He 'invented' so much, he was dominating WCs at 17, he was also great in the air for a smallish guy.
There was a video going around where it showed Pele do a skill or dribble and then went to a more modern player doing the exact same skill/dribble. He gave the game so much.
rossdapep
Well-Known Member
- Aug 25, 2011
- 22,192
- 79,790
...and Maradona doesn't come first due to his 'Hand of God' incident, it just leaves a bit of a bitter taste
Gassin's finest
C'est diabolique
- May 12, 2010
- 37,612
- 88,478
He was even better against them in 2006. That Brazil team was arguably better, with Kaka and Juninho added to Ronaldo and Ronaldinho. Yet Zidane ran the game, and set up the only goal of the game. Imperious.
ralvy
AVB my love
- Jun 26, 2012
- 2,512
- 4,630
Really? All he did was scoring two headers from set pieces... or so it's what I recall from watching that as a 10 year old back in the day.
ralvy
AVB my love
- Jun 26, 2012
- 2,512
- 4,630
I can't compare him with either of Maradona or Pele, but from now on I won't be able to see past the way Messi bossed the Qatar WC when it comes to this conversation.
It's not just that he was incredible at a world cup, but more the fact that he performed that way while knowing it was his last chance of winning it, that combined with how much it was expected from him to do so by pretty much the whole world. He had been carrying such heavy weight since the South Africa 2010 WC I think, and he probably was way more skillful back then, but what we saw at this world cup was a Lionel Messi in almost full command of his mind and emotions.
In my opinion Novak Djokovic has the toughest and most resilient mental strength in the world of sports, but even he folded back in 2021, when the calendar grand slam was on the table at the US open final. I think what Messi delivered at Qatar will be remembered as one of the most impressive sporting achievements ever, if not the most impressive one.
It's not just that he was incredible at a world cup, but more the fact that he performed that way while knowing it was his last chance of winning it, that combined with how much it was expected from him to do so by pretty much the whole world. He had been carrying such heavy weight since the South Africa 2010 WC I think, and he probably was way more skillful back then, but what we saw at this world cup was a Lionel Messi in almost full command of his mind and emotions.
In my opinion Novak Djokovic has the toughest and most resilient mental strength in the world of sports, but even he folded back in 2021, when the calendar grand slam was on the table at the US open final. I think what Messi delivered at Qatar will be remembered as one of the most impressive sporting achievements ever, if not the most impressive one.
One of the reasons that some of us think that Pele was the GOAT is how well he did despite the abuse he suffered. This tweet shows a lowlight reel of defenders taking him on. The other thing that was striking was just how bad the pitches were. Feliz Natal
yawa
Well-Known Member
- Aug 9, 2005
- 12,592
- 9,417
watch a highlight real of tackles on Messi and especially in games against Real and it’s pretty much the same.
Trix
Well-Known Member
- Jul 29, 2004
- 19,538
- 330,639
It's not because those players would be booked and that would be the only tackle they made like that in the game. Against Pele and Maradonna it was relentless for 90 minutes in some games. You can easily make a case for each of them that if argued properly is very difficult to disagree with. The more I think about it I don't think you will ever have a definitive answer on who is the goat because it all comes down to preference and the era you grew up watching. For me and I'd say the majority my age it was Maradonna, but I can understand the arguments for both Messi and Pele, and couldn't really refute either of them.
