The VAR Thread

[bradfordspur]

Given all the recent VAR controversies, was surprised to find this thread half way down page 2!

Listening to the various commentators, pundits, etc since the weekend, there seems to be a ground swell of opinions that VAR in it current form is destroying football as exciting entertainment, slowing down games with tedious interventions, conducting forensic examination of the slightest possible infringement (what happened to 'Clear and Obvious?), using repeated slow motion replays and selective still photos to undermining the referee's confidence and authority. This is compounded by some managers using VAR to mask their own teams failures and adding more fuel to the fire.

Maybe Ange was right on Monday night, let's go back to how it was pre-VAR, enjoy a proper game with immediate excitement, accept that officials will make mistakes, take the rough with the smooth and get on with the game we all love.

Might even call it 'The Old Man Shouting at the Clouds' movement!

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

I think VAR should be used for goal-line is it in or not decisions and for clear and obvious offside mistakes, other than that let the game flow and let the referees and linesmen do their bloody jobs and some decisions will go for you some against, that is sport and life.

Like Ange said ‘we’ are trying to forensically analyse everything and then at the end of it all we still aren’t sure or happy, absolutely ridiculous and it genuinely is ruining the game.

Fans need to speak up more about this like we did about the Super League but I fear now the tech is here they won’t remove it.

It makes sense in tennis and cricket to check if balls were in or out or if LBW’s were correct or not but in football aside from is it a goal or isn’t it a goal, for anything else it really isn’t needed to improve the game, it mostly just makes it a less enjoyable spectacle and ruins the flow and enjoyment.

 

[cwy21]

Football is now too big and toxic for decisions to be accepted in good faith | Jonathan Liew

Anger at technology and refereeing decisions is overblown but comes from the right place – a mistrust in the game’s authorities

www.theguardian.com

Loved every word he wrote.

 

[onthetwo]

I think VAR should be used for goal-line is it in or not decisions and for clear and obvious offside mistakes, other than that let the game flow and let the referees and linesmen do their bloody jobs and some decisions will go for you some against, that is sport and life.

Like Ange said ‘we’ are trying to forensically analyse everything and then at the end of it all we still aren’t sure or happy, absolutely ridiculous and it genuinely is ruining the game.

Fans need to speak up more about this like we did about the Super League but I fear now the tech is here they won’t remove it.

It makes sense in tennis and cricket to check if balls were in or out or if LBW’s were correct or not but in football aside from is it a goal or isn’t it a goal, for anything else it really isn’t needed to improve the game, it mostly just makes it a less enjoyable spectacle and ruins the flow and enjoyment.

was thinking exactly the same i.e stick to the goal-line and offside calls and leave the foul-play decisions to the ref and linesmen watching in real time.
The Rashford one last night was as good an example of what will happen if we carry on......i.e tackling will become a thing of the past.

 

[bradfordspur]

So Southgate has said that VAR should be binned after being at Monday’s game saying he was bored at the endless delays for VAR reviews. West Ham’s Antonio has said the same today.
if VAR does go then who will Klopp and Arteta have to blame for their losses?

 

[Yid-ol]

So Southgate has said that VAR should be binned after being at Monday’s game saying he was bored at the endless delays for VAR reviews. West Ham’s Antonio has said the same today.
if VAR does go then who will Klopp and Arteta have to blame for their losses?

The refs and fa....there will always be someone!

 

[Trent Crimm]

So Southgate has said that VAR should be binned after being at Monday’s game saying he was bored at the endless delays for VAR reviews. West Ham’s Antonio has said the same today.
if VAR does go then who will Klopp and Arteta have to blame for their losses?

He also called it boring (Gary on VAR). Oh the irony. And something like “it sucks the fun out of football”. Much like he sucks the fun out of watching England.

 

[Mr Pink]

But he's right.

Its sucking the joy out of football.

That in the momemt feeling of celebrating a goal is being taken away.

That football ecstacy we all live for is being eroded away.

Can't believe theyre not seriously entertaining the idea of getting rid right now.

 

[Trent Crimm]

But he's right.

Its sucking the joy out of football.

That in the momemt feeling of celebrating a goal is being taken away.

That football ecstacy we all live for is being eroded away.

Can't believe theyre not seriously entertaining the idea of getting rid right now.

Gary being bored. It’s a classic.

 

[UncleBuck]

They’ve taken it too far, every goal checked, every contact checked. Let’s see if there was any foul play in the build up to a goal, let’s look for a reason not to give a goal.
They’ve gone from one extreme of not wanting any technology in the game to a total overkill and they have now made var the focus.
All other sports use it to great effect, I just don’t understand how football can get it so wrong all the time.

 

[Mr Pink]

I remember when it was being talked about before it came in, the critics kept saying it would open up a huge can of worms in terms of where would the line be drawn with decisions.

They were right.

Next we'll be using VAR to work out contentious corners and throw ins.

The game is gone with it.

 

[allatsea]

I thought most likely wrongly the original idea behind VAR was to deal with "clear and obvious" errors by the Refs and Linesmen ? Now it has become a ridiculous drawing of lines etc.

 

[cwy21]

They’ve taken it too far, every goal checked, every contact checked. Let’s see if there was any foul play in the build up to a goal, let’s look for a reason not to give a goal.

Except they did the opposite of that with Arsenal and look how that turned out...

 

[Marty]

I remember when it was being talked about before it came in, the critics kept saying it would open up a huge can of worms in terms of where would the line be drawn with decisions.

They were right.

Next we'll be using VAR to work out contentious corners and throw ins.

The game is gone with it.

There are a couple of reasons why this has happened that aren't solely the refereeing bodies' (all of PGMOL, UEFA and FIFA) fault, to be slightly fair to them.

Primarily, for me, both traditional and social media have shone a ridiculously bright spotlight on refereeing decisions for far too long. Refs are afraid of making mistakes because they're afraid of the backlash not only on the pitch, but for days or weeks off it as well. That fear leads to them taking forever to make even quite obvious calls because they're afraid they've missed something that will go viral post match. And the insane tribalism of football blows even the most minor mistakes so much out of proportion it's a miracle anybody wants to be a referee at all, let alone deal with VAR.

A b-side to that first point is that players, managers, pundits and fans all show a shocking lack of knowledge of the laws of the game. Now with handball, that is IFAB's problem of their own making as they keep changing the interpretation of handball to suit VAR and as a result nobody can keep track of what the law actually says or how it is practiced. But stuff like the red cards for Curtis Jones, Romero and Rashford get frenzied on various outlets despite being absolutely 100% correct decisions as the law currently is. You can argue the law is an arse (though I don't in those instances), but only if you actually know what the law is in the first place.

But also, don't forget that FIFA's trials of VAR in 2016 concluded that VAR would only be needed once every 3/4 games and a check would take on average six seconds. So it's abundantly clear that VAR hasn't worked as intended and maybe that should be the starting point for debate also at the very top of the game. FIFA and IFAB are guilty of doubling down on a product that is not at all working as intended, and of course that causes massive frustration further down the chain.

 

[rossdapep]

I think VAR should be used for goal-line is it in or not decisions and for clear and obvious offside mistakes, other than that let the game flow and let the referees and linesmen do their bloody jobs and some decisions will go for you some against, that is sport and life.

Like Ange said ‘we’ are trying to forensically analyse everything and then at the end of it all we still aren’t sure or happy, absolutely ridiculous and it genuinely is ruining the game.

Fans need to speak up more about this like we did about the Super League but I fear now the tech is here they won’t remove it.

It makes sense in tennis and cricket to check if balls were in or out or if LBW’s were correct or not but in football aside from is it a goal or isn’t it a goal, for anything else it really isn’t needed to improve the game, it mostly just makes it a less enjoyable spectacle and ruins the flow and enjoyment.

When they first spoke about introducing it, I was for it because it sounded like this was the intention.

Plenty of clearly fine goals had been ruled out due to a lino raising his flag or a player would clearly be brought down for a penalty that wasn't given.

However, what I didn't anticipate was how forensic they were going to get.

A push 6 or 7 passes before the goal and they are going back and reviewing it.

I don't believe this is good in the spirit of the game. Firstly, the defending team can still prevent the goal and secondly it affects the game from it's enjoyment perspective.

I would take out offsides and give them back to the assistants to control.

I would only review penalty calls and red card incidents and they have to be picked up immediately - ideally within 5 seconds of the incident.

More importantly, they need to get tougher with penalty calls. Minimal contact incidents need to be forgotten. They need to get tougher with what is and what isn't a foul. That way they can minimise the 'checks'.

 

[tony0379]

 

[Mjerda]

When they first spoke about introducing it, I was for it because it sounded like this was the intention.

Plenty of clearly fine goals had been ruled out due to a lino raising his flag or a player would clearly be brought down for a penalty that wasn't given.

However, what I didn't anticipate was how forensic they were going to get.

That was my impression as well. We rarely got angry because the opposition scored a goal even from a 20 inch (or more) offside position. The game is fast and it's difficult for the lino, we'd say, with a tiny bit of bitterness. But goals wrongly disallowed is so much more frustrating, and that's why I kind of welcomed VAR.

Right now, I've got two main issues with VAR, though:

1)I no longer allow myself to celebrate goals as there's always something
2)VAR is involved in too many situations, preventing the flow of the game

For the first issue, I would be happy with a solution where VAR could only ALLOW goals, not disallow them. So if the lino didn't see a marginal offside (or a big one for that sake), the goal would stand. If however the lino flagged, VAR would go in to verify the decision. Also, if the ref didn't see any fouls in the build up, the goal would stand and VAR couldn't intervene. I would go as far as saying I'd allow a goal scored by the hand of God to stand if the officials didn't see it.

For my second issue, I'd like it to go back to how things were before VAR. We had something called retrospective bans, but they would rarely be used. This is an explanation from FA:

Firstly, it’s important to state that the principal objective behind retrospective action is to punish players who have clearly committed a red card offence ‘off the ball’.

It is not designed to ‘re-referee’ tackles but can be applied if an act of violent conduct or serious foul play occurred secondary to the challenge or if the match officials’ view of the specific misconduct was unclear.

In order for The FA to take retrospective action it must first establish from the match officials whether the incident was ‘not seen’. If they confirm they did see it then in almost all cases no further action is taken.

There are extraordinary exceptions, such as in the case involving Ben Thatcher [Manchester City versus Portsmouth in 2006]. If it is confirmed the match officials did not see the incident, The FA convenes a panel of three ex-professional referees and asks them to review the video footage independently of one another.

Only in circumstances where the panel members are unanimous will the player be charged.

That last part is kind of intriguing. They members couldn't talk and all three panel members would need to be unanimous. In the VAR room, there's 4 people, the video assistant referee and 3 assistants. Would it be possible to enforce the same rules we used to have retrospectively, only during the game? I like the idea of having them in separate rooms, and only when all of them presses the red button (of course not knowing if the others pressed the red or the green one), violent conduct and serious foul play could get punished. I'd add diving to the list of their responsibility as well, but NOT disallowing goals.

The flow of the game would be so much better and I could go back to celebrating goals again.

 

[rossdapep]

That was my impression as well. We rarely got angry because the opposition scored a goal even from a 20 inch (or more) offside position. The game is fast and it's difficult for the lino, we'd say, with a tiny bit of bitterness. But goals wrongly disallowed is so much more frustrating, and that's why I kind of welcomed VAR.

Right now, I've got two main issues with VAR, though:

1)I no longer allow myself to celebrate goals as there's always something
2)VAR is involved in too many situations, preventing the flow of the game

For the first issue, I would be happy with a solution where VAR could only ALLOW goals, not disallow them. So if the lino didn't see a marginal offside (or a big one for that sake), the goal would stand. If however the lino flagged, VAR would go in to verify the decision. Also, if the ref didn't see any fouls in the build up, the goal would stand and VAR couldn't intervene. I would go as far as saying I'd allow a goal scored by the hand of God to stand if the officials didn't see it.

For my second issue, I'd like it to go back to how things were before VAR. We had something called retrospective bans, but they would rarely be used. This is an explanation from FA:



That last part is kind of intriguing. They members couldn't talk and all three panel members would need to be unanimous. In the VAR room, there's 4 people, the video assistant referee and 3 assistants. Would it be possible to enforce the same rules we used to have retrospectively, only during the game? I like the idea of having them in separate rooms, and only when all of them presses the red button (of course not knowing if the others pressed the red or the green one), violent conduct and serious foul play could get punished. I'd add diving to the list of their responsibility as well, but NOT disallowing goals.

The flow of the game would be so much better and I could go back to celebrating goals again.

I think you have pretty much nailed it.

You are certainly right about the retrospective bans.

The team still suffers because that player gets a suspension for a future game/s but it doesn't disrupt the flow of the game.

The Chelsea game was a total farce, it almost didn;t matter who won cause it had already been spoiled.

Players like Romero play on the edge, if you go back and analyse every action they do you are gonna be there all day. Even if it isn't a red card, teh flow has been ruined.

They need to decide what is more important. Rightful sending a player off vs The flow of the game. What is better for the game?

I would definitely like to see them keep VAR reviews for penalties. Maybe just penalties that have been given because the game has already been stopped and the amount of diving that goes on would trick a lot of referees.

So refs give the penalty if they are not sure but they ask VAR to review it while the players have stopped. if the refs blow quick enough then it prevents any counter attacks being ruined, for example.

 

[allatsea]

I would love to see VAR stopped. It is ruining the game. The joy has been taken away.

 

[Croftwoodspurs]

Was just reading thst Gary O'Neil had a private conversation with Howard Webb about how to improve VAR, expect some decisions there way later today, or minimum yellows not being given fot obvious yellow card challenges...