The Weekend ITK Discussion Thread 11th/12th July 2015

[allatsea]

Things change mate, things change..

I am well aware of that but he has not said things have changed. Very unfortunate to use a phrase like "DM done" and then no explanation when he starts stalking about other DMs. The word Done only has one meaning and it is not negotiations are going well.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

If Poch/recruitment team have identified that we need a disciplined player who is more functional than expansive then they have completely missed what we have already and sitting in our development group.

McCarthy is more than a disciplined, functional player. In fact, he played as a number 10 towards the end of last season to great effect, scoring a few goals in the process. I think you are underestimating him massively.

 

[OmegaTigerWoods]

I have to reply just on this point... Who does? I repeat myself for about the 56 billionth time but finding two absolute all-rounders who will dominate every week is hard enough, and virtually impossible at our level. The bigger problem is that you cannot get away with playing a cm2 every week, and that's without looking at other factors such as a shoddy pressing game in front of them. Even Mourinho, with Matic and Fabregas, has games where he has to add an extra body in there to counter certain threats.

I predict whoever we sign that we will still get the same old complaints about individuals not offering x, y or z, and complaints about the partnership being too weak. Even when we had Luka Modric in the centre of the pitch pulling the strings & Scott Parker running around heroically doing the job of a couple of players, a lot of the focus was on what they couldn't do and how weak we looked at times. This isn't going to change. It isn't all about individuals.

Look at it this way, the valued traits for a central midfielder are often considered things like:

-Passing ability (Modric, Fabregas)
-Work-rate (Modric, Cabaye)
-Defensive ability/positioning (Sandro, Matic)
-Strength (Toure, Sandro)
-Ball Control/Dribbling (Modric, Toure)

among others.

Now of course there aren't many players that excel in every single one these areas, but the best midfielders (and midfield pairings) generally have a strong combination of all these qualities. With Chelsea for example, they have Fabregas, who is an excellent passer, dictates play through the middle and the final third whilst remaining solid defensively. He's partnered by Matic, a defensive beast who anchors the midfield beautifully, and is extremely hard to beat in both physical and areal battles. This gives them a great combination of passing ability, power, defensive fortitude, and it proved to be extremely important in their title winning season

In contrast, we have Mason and Bentaleb, who as of now, both strike me as "user of all, master of none" type of players. Neither of them can pass the ball nearly as well as Fabregas, nor can they protect the back 4 as well as Matic. Because neither of them excel at anything in particular (at least not at a top 4 standard), it becomes harder for us to consistently dominate teams through the middle.

Now I'm not saying we should be playing at the same level as Chelsea, I realize we don't have the spending power to compete with them. However, I do think central midfield is an area of weakness for us right now, and signing a quality player for this position would give us a better chance at making the top 4 than any other position.

 

[y1dk1d]

If we can get McCarthy tied up soon (ideally in the next fortnight but I'm not holding my breath) then I'll feel a lot more relaxed for the rest of the window. Would give us 4 weeks to rectify the forward situation. I see this as important but I feel we can get away with leaving that for last as we can surely get on fine with just Kane for the first 3-4 matches as he's a quality player whereas Mason (and I do like him) simply isn't quality. McCarthy is the better player, an improvement and is imo needed for the start of the season as I believe he and Bentaleb could form a fantastic partnership together and the more time and training as a duo the better

 

[dovahkiin]

trix: McCarthy is affordable/gettable and ticks a lot of boxes. Don't believe Mirallas will happen even if he is being pushed our way.

 

[jedimonkey]

What post was this?

Its in the post above mine that you replied to, I think.

 

[Parkie]

Look at it this way, the valued traits for a central midfielder are often considered things like:

-Passing ability (Modric, Fabregas)
-Work-rate (Modric, Cabaye)
-Defensive ability/positioning (Sandro, Matic)
-Strength (Toure, Sandro)
-Ball Control/Dribbling (Modric, Toure)

among others.

Now of course there aren't many players that excel in every single one these areas, but the best midfielders (and midfield pairings) generally have a strong combination of all these qualities. With Chelsea for example, they have Fabregas, who is an excellent passer, dictates play through the middle and the final third whilst remaining solid defensively. He's partnered by Matic, a defensive beast who anchors the midfield beautifully, and is extremely hard to beat in both physical and areal battles. This gives them a great combination of passing ability, power, defensive fortitude, and it proved to be extremely important in their title winning season

In contrast, we have Mason and Bentaleb, who as of now, both strike me as "user of all, master of none" type of players. Neither of them can pass the ball nearly as well as Fabregas, nor can they protect the back 4 as well as Matic. Because neither of them excel at anything in particular (at least not at a top 4 standard), it becomes harder for us to consistently dominate teams through the middle.

Now I'm not saying we should be playing at the same level as Chelsea, I realize we don't have the spending power to compete with them. However, I do think central midfield is an area of weakness for us right now, and signing a quality player for this position would give us a better chance at making the top 4 than any other position.

We should be playing at the same level as Chelsa.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

trix: McCarthy is affordable/gettable and ticks a lot of boxes. Don't believe Mirallas will happen even if he is being pushed our way.

He does indeed tick a lot of boxes IMO- the one of the best things is that he has a lot experience in the PL whilst still being young enough to improve a lot.

 

[y1dk1d]

Its in the post above mine that you replied to, I think.

Oh right, thanks

 

[Kirayid]

Really want us to sign a midfielder who gives it a 110% every night, like what we had with Sandro and 360Parker. We have that (kind of) with Bentaleb and Mason now but McCarthy would probably make them raise their game and more importantly Dembele to step up. At the ens of the season Mason and Bentaleb looked really knackered so another option wouldn't hurt. The problem in general play was that we don't have anybody in attack that van do the unexpected and take on defences with pace and skill to make room for others.

 

[mpickard2087]

Look at it this way, the valued traits for a central midfielder are often considered things like:

-Passing ability (Modric, Fabregas)
-Work-rate (Modric, Cabaye)
-Defensive ability/positioning (Sandro, Matic)
-Strength (Toure, Sandro)
-Ball Control/Dribbling (Modric, Toure)

among others.

Now of course there aren't many players that excel in every single one these areas, but the best midfielders (and midfield pairings) generally have a strong combination of all these qualities. With Chelsea for example, they have Fabregas, who is an excellent passer, dictates play through the middle and the final third whilst remaining solid defensively. He's partnered by Matic, a defensive beast who anchors the midfield beautifully, and is extremely hard to beat in both physical and areal battles. This gives them a great combination of passing ability, power, defensive fortitude, and it proved to be extremely important in their title winning season

In contrast, we have Mason and Bentaleb, who as of now, both strike me as "user of all, master of none" type of players. Neither of them can pass the ball nearly as well as Fabregas, nor can they protect the back 4 as well as Matic. Because neither of them excel at anything in particular (at least not at a top 4 standard), it becomes harder for us to consistently dominate teams through the middle.

Now I'm not saying we should be playing at the same level as Chelsea, I realize we don't have the spending power to compete with them. However, I do think central midfield is an area of weakness for us right now, and signing a quality player for this position would give us a better chance at making the top 4 than any other position.

I agree that Mason/Bentaleb isn't an ideal pair. As like so many of our cm's they'd look better in a midfield three.

As for the main point, at our level you will often end up buying exactly those type of players 'the average across all areas', in trying to get a player that is a) realistic and b) covering all bases. And as I said, even Chelsea cant get away with it always, Fabregas isn't actually that great defensively and there were a few games last year, including against us, where he was shown up. Hence why Mourinho puts in an extra body at times. It's just their overall quality and work rate allows them to get away with it in enough games. For us, that wouldn't be the case.

 

[Vwbottom]

What are we the Belgium foreign orrifice?

 

[SpartanSpur]

If we are settling for McCarthy, who by all accounts is a strong option for us, I'd really hope we get it done on 31st July rather than 31 August. Would be a lot more comfortable having him ready for the first game of the season.

 

[SpartanSpur]

I agree that Mason/Bentaleb isn't an ideal pair. As like so many of our cm's they'd look better in a midfield three.

As for the main point, at our level you will often end up buying exactly those type of players 'the average across all areas', in trying to get a player that is a) realistic and b) covering all bases. And as I said, even Chelsea cant get away with it always, Fabregas isn't actually that great defensively and there were a few games last year, including against us, where he was shown up. Hence why Mourinho puts in an extra body at times. It's just their overall quality and work rate allows them to get away with it in enough games. For us, that wouldn't be the case.

To be fair the 5-3 was mainly matic having a stinker. Couldn't deal with the Xmas period imo. Kane and Chadli beasted him.

 

[danielneeds]

McCarthy will 100% improve us. Just not in the class of Schneiderlin or Kramer. Our own fault for speculating too much on CL players.

 

[WiganSpur]

McCarthy will 100% improve us. Just not in the class of Schneiderlin or Kramer. Our own fault for speculating too much on CL players.

I think that's the right assessment. A signing that is better than what we have, but not necessarily in that top bracket that would really give us a chance of the top 4.

 

[KILLA_SIN]

He may be a 'bit' of a step down from Scheniderlin and one or two others that we have been linked with, but he is a definite improvement on anyone we have currently at the club. He is virtually guaranteed to be a success by virtue of the level of experience he has in the PL. He would make our middle a lot more solid and I would feel very confident that we would be a better defensive unit with him sitting in front of Verts and Toby. His attacking game is being underestimated as well. And he is an integral part of a Martinez side who does promote attacking football. I don't believe one particular player could take us into the top four including MS but he would certainly narrow the margins and get us closer.

And as bonus we would be weakening one of our direct rivals.

 

[IGSpur]

For what it's worth, statistically they stack up similarly, and McCarthy already plays in the Premier League and (I believe at least) would be cheaper.

That's my point we aren't buying an (significant) improvement on our first team. Mason could easily outplay him and he wind up our back up CM. For 10m fine, but 20 is ridiuclous.

I'm all for playing the kids mate, but who is seriously ready for this role from our youth who is as good and consistent as McCarthy, because I'm sure if there was someone ready Poch would play them.

Veljkovic. 100% and I disagree as unsurprsingly Poch may have doubts having a really young and inexperienced CM not that it wouldn't work but he would leave himself open to criticism if he did allow it

...apart from showing his excellent defensive positioning, tracking runners, well timed challenges, range of passing & awareness. Not to mention his determination in winning the ball back..

It really was an average video. I watched his compilation video too, from his good season and it was alright. Now for a DM there are better videos about. Also before someone says I don't appreciate the small simple things, I was a abig advocate of Bentaleb when he first came in and people said he does nothing. Even Bentaleb's vid from his debut season looks more impressive, nevermind this one. Even Mason's looks better. He did nothing in it, that I would not expect Veljkovic to be able to do, who is composd, a very good passer and excellent defensivley. He's not a lung buster but I thought we want someone to sit.

But as a above Poch won't take that risk. I just hope we don't end up paying over 15m for him.

 

[nugsie]

With the amount of ITK's now sounding off about it, I have a feeling any possible McCarthy deal may be further along than we think......

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

In fact, he played as a number 10 towards the end of last season

No he didn't.