Match Threads Watford vs Spurs - Match Thread

[King of Otters]

How the hell did we not get a penalty? I fail to see the difference between the 2 handballs, both unintentional, both players looking away, both outstretched arms hit from close range.

And var fails Spurs again, its a fkn VARce

I do think the one given against Jan was slightly more obvious, in that his hand was above his body. The Watford player had his hand by his side and the ball bounced up and hit him.

I don’t think either should have been given given as a pen tbh.

 

[Trotter]

By law the penalty against Watford could not be given, rebounded off his body (law changed in summer, outright ruling this out), just is not a penalty (and probably wouldn't have been given if hadn't hit another part of his body first), and similar to the penalty overturned for Man City against Palace. would have been overturned by VAR if it had been incorrectly given.
Vertonghen charging out arm in air, making himself lot bigger, that has always been a penalty, and rightly given.

No issues about those decisions at all.

Only thing I have issue about was Capoue not getting a yellow card in first half for the studs challenge, not saying he would have been sent off later, as may well not have committed the foul if already under a caution, but it stopped promising attack for us (not that we would have scored in month of Sundays)

 

[TonyK]

What have we spent in the last 2 windows Tony?



He's obviously referring to the Russian crook in SW London, it's pretty common knowledge how he became so rich.

We have signed 2 players in the last 4 transfer windows now GB (Tanguy and Sess) whilst selling and not replacing Trippier. And we have also taken GLC and now Gedson on loan. Clarke doesn't really warrant a mention as he isn't and hasn't been with the squad.

The squad needs, at the very least, a new GK, a LB, a RB, another centre-half, a play maker in midfield and a bloody fucking back-up for HK. But sure don't let all that cloud your judgement on Levy's performance in the transfer market.

As I have mentioned previously, Poch had built a squad that just needed some minor improvements each window to keep things fresh. He got no support whatsoever from the owners and the squad is now in need of a complete overhaul. If you honestly believe that Levy and Joe Lewis gave Poch the support that he needed then I'm sorry, but we are never going to agree on very much.

Granted, Abramovich is very dodgy indeed. How he was ever allowed to buy a football club I'll never know.

 

[Gb160]

The squad needs, at the very least, a new GK, a LB, a RB, another centre-half, a play maker in midfield and a bloody fucking back-up for HK. But sure don't let all that cloud your judgement on Levy's performance in the transfer market.

...and a partridge in a pear tree?

I'm being facetious, of course, but without knowing who Poch was offered, who he knocked back, and exactly who he expected Im not sure how people can lay the blame solely on Levy's doorstep, he's just the usual easy target for the ill-informed.
I don't think anyone except the extremely high up club officials, Levy and Poch actually know for sure what happened, so with such a void of information available, I'll keep my powder dry I think.

 

[TonyK]

...and a partridge in a pear tree?

I'm being facetious, of course, but without knowing who Poch was offered, who he knocked back, and exactly who he expected Im not sure how people can lay the blame solely on Levy's doorstep, he's just the usual easy target for the ill-informed.
I don't think anyone except the extremely high up club officials, Levy and Poch actually know for sure what happened, so with such a void of information available, I'll keep my powder dry I think.

We can agree to disagree then GB. But with less than 2 weeks to go in the current transfer window, lets see what the senior management at the club produce. We haven't scored a single goal since HK got injured, so we are all very aware where the current priorities lie. It was well reported that we were in big for Dybala in the summer (no smoke without fire and all that) but I bet we end up with a washed up Christian Benteke type of player to fill the void. The memories of signing Ryan Nielsen and Louis Saha still haunt me!! I'm still hoping Daniel Levy proves me wrong though as at the end of the day we all want the same thing.

 

[Gb160]

We can agree to disagree then GB. But with less than 2 weeks to go in the current transfer window, lets see what the senior management at the club produce. We haven't scored a single goal since HK got injured, so we are all very aware where the current priorities lie. It was well reported that we were in big for Dybala in the summer (no smoke without fire and all that) but I bet we end up with a washed up Christian Benteke type of player to fill the void. The memories of signing Ryan Nielsen and Louis Saha still haunt me!! I'm still hoping Daniel Levy proves me wrong though as at the end of the day we all want the same thing.

Yeah I think we can all agree that we need a god damn striker mate.

 

[mpickard2087]

To my mind the reality is we got into a new phase that neither Poch or Levy have experienced before and yeah probably did struggle to adapt to. I wouldn't call it negligence though or a disgrace. Just that neither had the sufficient knowledge or experience of the conditions they were operating in.

A post I made at the time of the change in manager, I stick by it:

I wouldn't call it a fuck up, they've just got into new territory that not so many in football get to and not been quick/ruthless enough to react.

For football managers the average life cycle is what, a couple of years? Three/four at max. People like Alex Ferguson as the obvious example, who are there for several generations of the football team and are ahead of the curve and have the instinct as to when to renew or refresh, or make ballsy calls and/or get rid of previously key pieces of the puzzle, don't happen these days. Guardiola, Mourinho, and the other 99.9% of managers out there come in, spunk some money to get a core group of players, last as long as they get something near 100% out of them - then they quit or usually are sacked. Very few managers these days has to experience rebuilding, 'knowing' when to get rid, and do this whilst maintaining results.

This goes for Poch. It's one thing being able to turf out dissenters early on, or fringe players who aren't in the team, but an entirely different scenario getting rid of key players that you have had some relative success with, might have built strong bonds and affinities with, still somewhat performing for you, and might leave you facing the wrath of fans for selling a favourite, plus quizzical looks from the boardroom. Maybe he wanted more change, maybe he didn't, but on the evidence overall he's reached new territory and probably not been ruthless , especially as someone who demands 100% buy in and his teams are all about effort and commitment.

Go back to the example of a Fergie-type character, with experience of renovating a team.... Two years or so ago when Lloris stopped sweeping up, and got more erratic in general, you reckon they wouldn't have spent a bit of money on a keeper and brought in a serious rival, if only to light a fire under Hugo's arse? When Alderweireld first started his contract shenanigans, he'd be fucked off ASAP, instead we allow the contract to wind down and now have to replace him at the same time as an increasingly ancient looking Vertonghen. Danny Rose gets umpteen chances to lose focus/mouth off. Eriksen is allowed getting on 18 months of poor form. Even the Alli's and Kane's, those at the top of the tree, are allowed to lose focus and/or not work as hard and get into a comfort zone. Would that all be tolerated.......? Kyle Walker was the only one where a big call was made, but even then it was at the time where Trippier was arguably showing more and a replacement was there waiting.

But I think it's new territory for Levy as well. In his tenure it's been a different playing field. From the mid table misery era of dross teams it's easy to keep overhauling the squads and buying new players, whilst the ones you lose are either the very best ones snapped up by those higher in the food chain or ones usually on the fringes and/or flopped you obviously want rid of. Now we're at the point where we're at, or at least very near the top table, and we've had our best team for many a year and it's been probably our most settled as a result. Improving it becomes more difficult, especially when you're financially weaker than other teams around you, but there is also probably an element of being unsure as to whether you should be looking to make any real changes to the squad if they're performing and have a good age profile and room to improve still. And, like Poch, this goes with selling players too who have brought some relative success, when you always have the question mark of will a new signing come in and ultimately pick up where was left off.

So I honestly do think a lot of it is down to Poch and Levy getting into a situation which they haven't encountered or experienced before and not known how to tread the path. I don't think it's negligence, and I wouldn't either bemoan wasting the last 5 years. You never have 'it' bottled, managing and running a football club is always an ongoing process with bumps in the road. At this point we look like we've struggled to transition from one point in time to the next, and we can easily take steps forward again if we get enough things right.

I also think it's a bit rich for fans to now be complaining. Go back a couple of years and the vast vast majority had this cosy world view that these players could only get better, we were set for the best part of 10 years with this squad and manager, we were entering a glorious era...… Now we're getting a lot of revisionism about of course this was going to happen, you have to keep refreshing and shaking things up, some of these players were never good enough. Like fuck this was being said at the time!

 

[TonyK]

Yeah I think we can all agree that we need a god damn striker mate.

Yay - we agree on something!!!

 

[TwanYid]

I used to bloody love his videos.

Same. Wtf happened to him? Is he still around? Those were by far the best Spurs-related things on the internet.

 

[Gb160]

Same. Wtf happened to him? Is he still around? Those were by far the best Spurs-related things on the internet.

He was on TFC podcast a couple of seasons ago, a really funny guy.
IIRC he's a TV producer now, and I think work commitments limited the amount of games he gets to, so he gave it up doing the vids.

 

[wrd]

To my mind the reality is we got into a new phase that neither Poch or Levy have experienced before and yeah probably did struggle to adapt to. I wouldn't call it negligence though or a disgrace. Just that neither had the sufficient knowledge or experience of the conditions they were operating in.

A post I made at the time of the change in manager, I stick by it:




I also think it's a bit rich for fans to now be complaining. Go back a couple of years and the vast vast majority had this cosy world view that these players could only get better, we were set for the best part of 10 years with this squad and manager, we were entering a glorious era...… Now we're getting a lot of revisionism about of course this was going to happen, you have to keep refreshing and shaking things up, some of these players were never good enough. Like fuck this was being said at the time!

People were saying these things during the summer of 2018 and people were laughed at for being either obsessed with transfers or for panicking.

 

[davidmatzdorf]

We have signed 2 players in the last 4 transfer windows now GB (Tanguy and Sess) whilst selling and not replacing Trippier. And we have also taken GLC and now Gedson on loan. Clarke doesn't really warrant a mention as he isn't and hasn't been with the squad.

We have signed three players in the last one-and-a-half transfer windows, if you exclude the two players whose loan deals are subject to a buyer's option that we can exercise unilaterally. To all intents and purposes, we have signed those two as well, except that we can send them back if we don't like them.

Clarke counts. The subject is signing players, which involves a contract lasting several years, not for one season. The only football clubs who sign players with one season in mind are those who are fighting relegation.

So that's five:

Jack Clarke - 02/07-/19
Tanguy Ndombele - 02/07/19
Ryan Sessegnon - 08/08/19
Giovani Lo Celso - 08/08/19
Gedson Fernandes - 14/01/20

 

[shelfboy68]

...and a partridge in a pear tree?

I'm being facetious, of course, but without knowing who Poch was offered, who he knocked back, and exactly who he expected Im not sure how people can lay the blame solely on Levy's doorstep, he's just the usual easy target for the ill-informed.
I don't think anyone except the extremely high up club officials, Levy and Poch actually know for sure what happened, so with such a void of information available, I'll keep my powder dry I think.

I agree that none of us know what has really gone on but levy can't be absolved from blame mate, those two barren windows when the club should have trickled 1/2 in has got us to this mess today.
It would appear on the surface that both the chairman and poch have fucked this up and it does look now like Jose is really going to have to earn his huge salary.

 

[Gb160]

I agree that none of us know what has really gone on but levy can't be absolved from blame mate,

Spot on, I was I more implying that the blame should be shared Shelfy.

 

[TonyK]

We have signed three players in the last one-and-a-half transfer windows, if you exclude the two players whose loan deals are subject to a buyer's option that we can exercise unilaterally. To all intents and purposes, we have signed those two as well, except that we can send them back if we don't like them.

Clarke counts. The subject is signing players, which involves a contract lasting several years, not for one season. The only football clubs who sign players with one season in mind are those who are fighting relegation.

So that's five:

Jack Clarke - 02/07-/19
Tanguy Ndombele - 02/07/19
Ryan Sessegnon - 08/08/19
Giovani Lo Celso - 08/08/19
Gedson Fernandes - 14/01/20

I think the next 11 days between now and the window closing are gonna tell us everything we need to know about the owners’ ambition for the club David. Especially with Harry out injured. Is it going to be a Dybala or another Louis Saha moment? That was a full 8 years ago this month out of interest. Levy was trying to do things on the cheap back then. Let’s see what has changed 8 years later.

 

[davidmatzdorf]

I think the next 11 days between now and the window closing are gonna tell us everything we need to know about the owners’ ambition for the club David. Especially with Harry out injured. Is it going to be a Dybala or another Louis Saha moment? That was a full 8 years ago this month out of interest. Levy was trying to do things on the cheap back then. Let’s see what has changed 8 years later.

Fundamentally, I do not take the view that the "owners’ ambition for the club" is accurately assessed by the number, value and prominence of player transfers.

I'm on record all over this forum as saying that I think that he significance of player transfers, in terms of the long term development of the club, are grossly overstated by fans. The development of the stadium and the effect it has on our turnover (enabling higher salaries) is far more important. So is the revolution in our academy over the past 10-12 years.

But the other aspect where we diverge is that I do not judge player transfers with any attention to the current season's form. Neither does the club. Neither does any Premiership club, except those in desperate relegation trouble, as we were in 2008. The club does not undertake player transfers to improve the current season's position. It hasn't done that since 2003.

 

[TonyK]

Fundamentally, I do not take the view that the "owners’ ambition for the club" is accurately assessed by the number, value and prominence of player transfers.

I'm on record all over this forum as saying that I think that he significance of player transfers, in terms of the long term development of the club, are grossly overstated by fans. The development of the stadium and the effect it has on our turnover (enabling higher salaries) is far more important. So is the revolution in our academy over the past 10-12 years.

But the other aspect where we diverge is that I do not judge player transfers with any attention to the current season's form. Neither does the club. Neither does any Premiership club, except those in desperate relegation trouble, as we were in 2008. The club does not undertake player transfers to improve the current season's position. It hasn't done that since 2003.

I think you are being overly optimistic David if you expect our academy to consistently produce the quality of players that will keep the team progressing. Admittedly, that would be great if it happened but I don't think that is even remotely realistic. As for the current season's form, the only way we have any chance of playing in Europe next season is by signing a bloody striker in the next 10 / 11 days. We need investment in the first 11 now. And we also need players that can come in and produce the goods straight away. To get that, you need to spend some decent money on the squad which as we know our owners are always reticent to do.

 

[Japhet]

Just heard a commentator say that the goal line decision system ruling Lamela‘a chance not a goal by a millimeter is technology working at its best. Same people who say technology ruling someone offside by a millimeter (another objective decision) is ruining the spirit of the game by denying goals... I lose my mind sometimes.

The thing with that is that goal line technology is a simle measurement of whether the ball crosses the line - it's black and white. The offside decisions are dependant on the precise moment that the ball is kicked which is a grey area and very subjective.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

To my mind the reality is we got into a new phase that neither Poch or Levy have experienced before and yeah probably did struggle to adapt to. I wouldn't call it negligence though or a disgrace. Just that neither had the sufficient knowledge or experience of the conditions they were operating in.

A post I made at the time of the change in manager, I stick by it:




I also think it's a bit rich for fans to now be complaining. Go back a couple of years and the vast vast majority had this cosy world view that these players could only get better, we were set for the best part of 10 years with this squad and manager, we were entering a glorious era...… Now we're getting a lot of revisionism about of course this was going to happen, you have to keep refreshing and shaking things up, some of these players were never good enough. Like fuck this was being said at the time!

Great post

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

I think you are being overly optimistic David if you expect our academy to consistently produce the quality of players that will keep the team progressing. Admittedly, that would be great if it happened but I don't think that is even remotely realistic. As for the current season's form, the only way we have any chance of playing in Europe next season is by signing a bloody striker in the next 10 / 11 days. We need investment in the first 11 now. And we also need players that can come in and produce the goods straight away. To get that, you need to spend some decent money on the squad which as we know our owners are always reticent to do.

It’s hugely optimistic to expect us to sign a striker that will immediately come in and start firing. There are hardly, if any, of high enough quality available. And as we’ve seen with Sess, NDombele and LoSelso it takes even good quality players time to adapt to their new surroundings.