Who's your player of the season so far?

[sloth]

To be sure, you can make a mathematically non-bankrupt rating system which will show that Steed is the top dog and Berbatov is a "liability". Good luck :lol:

Leaving the joke aside, it should be clear that every rating system is "drived by pre-judged positions". That's not something bad in itself. The question is whether these "pre-judged" positions are good. The truth is that in that case they reflect the opinion of the fans and pundits. If the system shows that Lee is a better player than Ronaldo, then it does not work. So, if the system is good it should show that the likes of Ronaldo, Drogba, Essien, Gerrard etc. are among the best because they in fact are. The system reflects the opinions of the fans but not those of the fans of a given club which is far from being bad. You know, Spurs fans think King is the best defender in the world, Liverpool's fans think the same about Carragher, Everton fans consider Lescott better than King and Carragher etc.

Yes, but if imo, Ashley Young for instance is better than Rosicky, but the system paints it the other way, you would be up in arms if i then tweaked the system until it produced a result whereby Ashley Young comes out on top.

Now if you want to make an argument that so-and-so is better than so-and-so do it by the strength of your argument not some obscure and hopelessly compromised rating system.

In fairness to you Berbati, this is what you've tried to do in this thread.

Unfortunately you didn't reply to me earlier (I choose to think that it is due to the power of my argument), so I'll just point the following out.

Berbatov improved when the team improved and that is when Ramos joined. There is a simple cause and effect argument there. Your contention that it was due to the Bulgarian is damning to the player. A world-class player doesn't only play for two thirds of the season.

Worse than that, since Ramos has been here he's either been really good or really pretty poor I'd say in a 3:1 ratio. When he's poor, he doesn't have the saving grace of a Rooney or Ronaldo or Giggs in that at least he works, when he's poor he's a passenger. Most discouraging of all is that he visibly saps the spirit of his team-mates to the same degree that he lifts it when he's on song.

Berbatov is blessed with incredible skill and it's up to him how far he wants to go, he has it in him to be one of the best in the world, but he's got a dodgy attitude and that holds him back.

It's for this reason, for the games he's lost us, the games we've only drawn but might have won had Berbatov the spirit or ethic of players like Lee and Malbranque that he's not our player of the season.

In fact he's not even in the top three players of the season.

It remains to be seen whether the new coach can effect a change in him. He has between now and the end of the season to prove he's worth a place in the Ramos revolution. If he doesn't then I'm afraid he can sling his hook and we'll use the £30m to invest in players worthy of the shirt!

 

[yanno]

A world-class player doesn't only play for two thirds of the season.

Worse than that, since Ramos has been here he's either been really good or really pretty poor I'd say in a 3:1 ratio. When he's poor, he doesn't have the saving grace of a Rooney or Ronaldo or Giggs in that at least he works, when he's poor he's a passenger. Most discouraging of all is that he visibly saps the spirit of his team-mates to the same degree that he lifts it when he's on song.

Berbatov is blessed with incredible skill and it's up to him how far he wants to go, he has it in him to be one of the best in the world, but he's got a dodgy attitude and that holds him back.

Any world class "skill" player whose good games to bad games are in a 3:1 ratio would be regarded by coaches as a phenomenon, absolutely indispensible. Rooney has been nowhere near 3:1 in terms of good to bad games this season, and Ferguson has told him to reduce his workrate (closing down etc) for precisely this reason. Ferguson wants to see his genius, not his closing down.

Ronaldinho has been rubbish for most of the season, and he was told to go off and spend a month getting himself match fit by Rijkaard.

The only world class "skill" player I can think of who's been incredibly consistent this season is Cristiano Ronaldo.

Sloth - I really think you overdo this "dodgy attitude" thing. Henry and Cantona were frequently dismissive of their teammates' efforts, but that didn't stop them being world class. Berba is a fantastic player who gets frustrated when he receives sloppy passes, or when he tries some magic and it doesn't come off. That's the way he is. It doesn't equate to a "dodgy attitude".

 

[Pedro]

Steed
Keano
JJ
Berbs

so far. Bale was our best player at the start of the season.

lennons been getting better under ramos.

King and TT have been immense when they make it on the pitch.

Berbs is just sheer class, but I usually expect more from him

 

[johnny69]

Robbie Keane at the moment,Steeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed a close second and O'Hara thereabouts

 

[Berbati]

Yes, but if imo, Ashley Young for instance is better than Rosicky, but the system paints it the other way, you would be up in arms if i then tweaked the system until it produced a result whereby Ashley Young comes out on top.

Now if you want to make an argument that so-and-so is better than so-and-so do it by the strength of your argument not some obscure and hopelessly compromised rating system.

In fairness to you Berbati, this is what you've tried to do in this thread.

Unfortunately you didn't reply to me earlier (I choose to think that it is due to the power of my argument), so I'll just point the following out.

Berbatov improved when the team improved and that is when Ramos joined. There is a simple cause and effect argument there. Your contention that it was due to the Bulgarian is damning to the player. A world-class player doesn't only play for two thirds of the season.

Worse than that, since Ramos has been here he's either been really good or really pretty poor I'd say in a 3:1 ratio. When he's poor, he doesn't have the saving grace of a Rooney or Ronaldo or Giggs in that at least he works, when he's poor he's a passenger. Most discouraging of all is that he visibly saps the spirit of his team-mates to the same degree that he lifts it when he's on song.

Berbatov is blessed with incredible skill and it's up to him how far he wants to go, he has it in him to be one of the best in the world, but he's got a dodgy attitude and that holds him back.

It's for this reason, for the games he's lost us, the games we've only drawn but might have won had Berbatov the spirit or ethic of players like Lee and Malbranque that he's not our player of the season.

In fact he's not even in the top three players of the season.

It remains to be seen whether the new coach can effect a change in him. He has between now and the end of the season to prove he's worth a place in the Ramos revolution. If he doesn't then I'm afraid he can sling his hook and we'll use the £30m to invest in players worthy of the shirt!

I don' t realise why you think your "argument" is worth to be seriously taken :shrug:

What you make is roughly like this: listen Berbati, you say things stand so and so but actually they stand differently. And you call this an argument :lol:

I didn't write that Spurs started to win because Berbatov started to play better. Instead I wrote when which is not the same as it leaves open the degree to which he contributed to Spurs success. By contrast, you entirely dogmatically assert that Berbatov started to play well only because Spurs started to play better. First, you cannot be entirely sure that it's not rather the other way round. When Berbatov started to play brilliantly last February, Spurs made a fantastic run in the Premiership, better than the one they made under Ramos. Hence, the direction of influence is by far not as clear as you take it. Second, if he started to play better because the team began to play better, then this would imply that Berbatov was poor before that because the team/manager was poor and not because he was lazy and disinterested. Hence, he wasn't responsible for the bad results. :shrug:

Your logic about his inconsistence amounts to the following: to be consistently non-world class is better than to be inconsistently world class. Great! That's a strong argument :clap:

Further, as a matter of fact, you deny that he is world class as he plays well only for two third of the season. OK, why then do you want for him 30 mill? Is there a manager in the world who is so stupid to waste 30 mill on a player whose mentality is wrong and who plays only 2/3 of a season?

Your final passage is almost comical. It sounds like that: Berbatov, try to show that you are worth to play for Tootenham or we will sell you to Real, Milan, Chelsea or Man U! (Who else could give 30 mill for Berbatov?).

I wonder about how to react to this: so :duh: or so :rofl:

 

[Rocksuperstar]

I wonder about how to react to this: so :duh: or so :rofl:

how about

then we can all get with discussing who we think is player of the season so far, instead of having to wade through this nonstop tirade of you trying to prove, to all who disagree, that Berbatov is the second coming of Christ...

GIVE IT A REST!

 

[DC_Boy]

Actim stats like most/all 'reputable' stats can be useful - but must be handled with care etc -

the fact however that Berbs is our highest ranked player goes along with my and many people's feelings that he is our best player and there's no doubt in most Prem managers' minds (I think) he's our most valuable player

the fact that such an artistic player as Berbs also scores so highly on stats that presumably don't measure for 'artistic impression' is also a tribute to the player who for me this season and last is our player of the season

 

[DogsOfWar]

Why do you think that I base my opinion on the Actim Index? I never mentioned the Actim Index in the posts in which I argued that Berbatov deserves to be mentioned as a contender for player of the season. I cited the Actim Index to show that my opinion is not a function of my username :lol:, i.e., that (1) there are criteria according to which Berbatov and Keane have had a bigger impact on Spurs season than Steed and (2) these criteria have nothing to do with me and you, i.e. are not laid down by people who are biased toward or against a given player.

The ACTIM index certainly validates your argument for Berbatov's contribution to the season in terms of goals and assists but this is not the issue.

Berbs is a striker, his job is to score and create goals. Malbranque is a midfielder, his job is to score, create, tackle, chase, pass etc.
ACTIM will not award Steed points for chasing back 50 yards to get behind the ball, or to hassle the opposition midfield to prevent them from getting forward.

Your argument is simply that Steed's workrate and effort is no substitute for Berb's class but it is when you play in the midfield so this is not necessarily true.
If Berbatov (and Keane) hassled the opposition defenders then it would stop the opposition being able to build comfortably from the back. They would be forced into hoofing the ball and from the resulting lack of possession would score less goals against us.

Conversely, if Steed stopped working hard the opposition could simply stroll past him and the extra possession in our final third would result in us conceding more goals.

You cannot base an argument purely on the fact that strikers score goals, goals are the most important thing in football, this makes strikers the most expensive players, the most expensive player is the best and therefore should win player of the season.
If this was the case then you must believe that a striker, Jermain Defoe, being sold for £9 million and us buying a defender, Jonathan Woodgate, for £7 million was a mistake.

 

[Berbati]

Thanks to all fellas who have tried to seriously response to my challenge to the widespread opinion who is Spurs Player of the Season so far. I regret if I was harsh on some of their comments. :up:

Fans have the right to choose their Player of the Season and their free choice is what really matters. :up:

 

[spurs12345]

Paul Robinson.

:rofl:

 

[sloth]

I don' t realise why you think your "argument" is worth to be seriously taken :shrug:

What you make is roughly like this: listen Berbati, you say things stand so and so but actually they stand differently. And you call this an argument :lol:

I agree with you that Berbatov is a great player touched by genius, I don't value him to the same degree as you, I don't call that anything except a difference of opinion, I'm willing to argue my case without problem, if you prefer to pull silly faces and not engage that's up to you.

I didn't write that Spurs started to win because Berbatov started to play better. Instead I wrote when which is not the same as it leaves open the degree to which he contributed to Spurs success.

This is called semantics Berbati, it's when you mistake the words you use for the argument you mean. Let me ask a simple question. Do you think Tottenham improved because Berbatov started to play better, or do you think Berbatov improved because Tottenham started to play better?

By contrast, you entirely dogmatically assert that Berbatov started to play well only because Spurs started to play better.

No, I didn't say that.

First, you cannot be entirely sure that it's not rather the other way round. When Berbatov started to play brilliantly last February, Spurs made a fantastic run in the Premiership, better than the one they made under Ramos. Hence, the direction of influence is by far not as clear as you take it.

The obvious inference being that a player plays better in a team which is playing better. I dispute that Berbatov is the catalyst, imo, he simply is not that kind of player.

Second, if he started to play better because the team began to play better, then this would imply that Berbatov was poor before that because the team/manager was poor and not because he was lazy and disinterested. Hence, he wasn't responsible for the bad results. :shrug:

I think Berbatov has a difficult character and I suspect a succession of his managers will say the same. You can manage him better or worse. However I don't think that is the real point. I think that a successful team is always greater than the individuals which go to make it up and a successful team is never down to a single player but can be down to a single coach, I contend that Berbatov is great player but that he is a follower (like you berbati) and not a leader. Worse, I think he's a negative influence more often than he should be and for this reason he is only a very good player and not a world class one despite his world class ability. I hope you get this nuance because previously you have seemed too dense (whether deliberate or merely limited I'm unsure), to grasp it.

Your logic about his inconsistence amounts to the following: to be consistently non-world class is better than to be inconsistently world class.

No it doesn't.

Further, as a matter of fact, you deny that he is world class as he plays well only for two third of the season.

I think he has World Class ability.

OK, why then do you want for him 30 mill? Is there a manager in the world who is so stupid to waste 30 mill on a player whose mentality is wrong and who plays only 2/3 of a season?

A player is worth what you can buy him for and this reflects the size of your coffers.

Your final passage is almost comical. It sounds like that: Berbatov, try to show that you are worth to play for Tootenham or we will sell you to Real, Milan, Chelsea or Man U! (Who else could give 30 mill for Berbatov?).

Sol Campbell could have played for any team in the world, it didn't make him worthy to wear the Tottenham shirt. This is an essential something you fail to grasp Berbati. Gary Mabbut was not the greatest CB who ever played the game and yet he's worthy of the Tottenham shirt. You getting it yet? Probably not, you don't support a team do you? (Apart from Barcelona of course; I've no doubt you're a Catalan, lol) You're what they call a groupy, a teeny-bopper chasing after his celebrity super-star. Wooooo! Go Berbatov, lol!!

Anyway, good luck to you, whichever club you eventually end up at. You're not worthy to wear the Tottenham shirt, but were there a Berbatov one you'd be a candidate for cheer-leader in chief :up:.

 

[jujuman]

Sorry if this has ben asked recently, but been away.

Being a Spurs fan and living in Yorkshire (unfortunately you can't choose where you're born!) I only get so see Spurs a few times a year, but I do watch them on TV whenever they're on and via the internet. I was wondering what everyone thought about our best player this year. For me its Bale, I know he's been injured, but I absolutely love the guy, when he has played he's been a revelation. Marlbranque is a close second.

If he stays fit I think I could even being saying Woodgate at the end of the season.

Any thoughts?

I agree Bale has been our best player this season.

In his all too few appearances he made the team look more balanced than it has since the Ginola era. with his goals, assists and general play, his loss has been key to how our season has progressed. We are a much better team with him in the side.

Imagine United without Ronaldo or Ar5ena1 without Adebayor. Both have been instrumental to their clubs this season. Wthout them where would they be now?

I reckon we would still be in the FA cup and Ar5en0 wouldn't have quite the same ring. Unfortunately Chelski would probably be top though.

Having said that whoever scores the winning goal or penalty in the Carling Cup Final will probably get my vote come the end of the season.

 

[double0]

Jermaine Jenas....under rated

 

[Rocksuperstar]

I agree Bale has been our best player this season.

I agree - If Dr Charlotte Cowie had had someone to warm the treatment table and cheer up the physio's then i don't doubt she'd still be with the club :|

 

[Berbati]

I agree with you that Berbatov is a great player touched by genius, I don't value him to the same degree as you, I don't call that anything except a difference of opinion, I'm willing to argue my case without problem, if you prefer to pull silly faces and not engage that's up to you.


This is called semantics Berbati, it's when you mistake the words you use for the argument you mean. Let me ask a simple question. Do you think Tottenham improved because Berbatov started to play better, or do you think Berbatov improved because Tottenham started to play better?


No, I didn't say that.

The obvious inference being that a player plays better in a team which is playing better. I dispute that Berbatov is the catalyst, imo, he simply is not that kind of player.

I think Berbatov has a difficult character and I suspect a succession of his managers will say the same. You can manage him better or worse. However I don't think that is the real point. I think that a successful team is always greater than the individuals which go to make it up and a successful team is never down to a single player but can be down to a single coach, I contend that Berbatov is great player but that he is a follower (like you berbati) and not a leader. Worse, I think he's a negative influence more often than he should be and for this reason he is only a very good player and not a world class one despite his world class ability. I hope you get this nuance because previously you have seemed too dense (whether deliberate or merely limited I'm unsure), to grasp it.


No it doesn't.


I think he has World Class ability.

A player is worth what you can buy him for and this reflects the size of your coffers.


Sol Campbell could have played for any team in the world, it didn't make him worthy to wear the Tottenham shirt. This is an essential something you fail to grasp Berbati. Gary Mabbut was not the greatest CB who ever played the game and yet he's worthy of the Tottenham shirt. You getting it yet? Probably not, you don't support a team do you? (Apart from Barcelona of course; I've no doubt you're a Catalan, lol) You're what they call a groupy, a teeny-bopper chasing after his celebrity super-star. Wooooo! Go Berbatov, lol!!

Anyway, good luck to you, whichever club you eventually end up at. You're not worthy to wear the Tottenham shirt, but were there a Berbatov one you'd be a candidate for cheer-leader in chief :up:.

Thank you for your response. Almost everything you write here appears to me (deeply) problematic but I'm not going to analyze it any further. Good luck to you, you deserve to wear the Tottenham shirt :lol:

 

[Stoof]

Everything he's written there, Berbati, is spot-fucking-on.

WP sloth. :clap:

 

[Berbati]

Everything he's written there, Berbati, is spot-fucking-on.

WP sloth. :clap:

If you think it is spot-fucking-on, then it is :lol:

Or it isn't :lol:


Now I have excellent news for you: I'm going to make very few posts here (at least until the end of the season). :grin:

Enjoy! :lol:

 

[Rocksuperstar]

If you think it is spot-fucking-on, then it is :lol:

Or it isn't :lol:

or it's a giant rat-headed kingfisher, wearing clogs...

Give it up, Berbati, just let it go...

 

[Berbati]

or it's a giant rat-headed kingfisher, wearing clogs...

Give it up, Berbati, just let it go...

See above your post :up:

That was it. :lol:

 

[sloth]

See above your post :up:

That was it. :lol:

A final question for you Berbati, just before you go, if Berbatov were sold to Arsenal next year, would we find you wearing their shirt?

Except you don't need to answer, because I already know.