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zokora the untouchable

DFF

DFF

YOLO, Daniel
May 17, 2005
14,233
6,115
You and i both.

Incidentally, wanna take a bet on that?
 
diegooners

diegooners

Well-Known Member
Jul 25, 2005
1,949
35
I know you'll see this as me with my tinted glasses again....but I would not say Lennon was effective.
 
lukespurs7

lukespurs7

Well-Known Member
Feb 21, 2006
4,833
4,259
Always tried to support Zokora and Jenas and to be fair to Jenas for much of the match he was played out of position but it is becoming more apparent that these guys are not top4 material, if thats where we want to be. Some fans are right that Zoko isn't being subbed because he's playing ok whereas Steed and Lennon aren't however Zokora is doing a far simpler job and it's hard to tell weather he's really playing well or not whereas an attacking player such as Lennon,Steed or a striker it is much easier to see how well they are playing and also alot easier to use their substitution as a tactical change.

Zokora does have some positives to his game such as his energy, his tackling and quite often to be fair to him his reading of the game BUT his passing is quite limited, he does go backward TOO often and yes he's a Defensive midfielder but IMO he's nothing special and needs to be playing with a very creative or attacking CM i.e Fabregas or Scholes type to look effective and sorry but Jenas isn't either of those.

This thread aswell as other bashing threads only come about because we lose BUT it's because of certain players poor performances that we do lose so these threads are to an extend justified.
 
RussellYid

RussellYid

Is Better Than...
Dec 12, 2004
3,923
166
lukespurs7 said:
Always tried to support Zokora and Jenas and to be fair to Jenas for much of the match he was played out of position but it is becoming more apparent that these guys are not top4 material, if thats where we want to be. Some fans are right that Zoko isn't being subbed because he's playing ok whereas Steed and Lennon aren't however Zokora is doing a far simpler job and it's hard to tell weather he's really playing well or not whereas an attacking player such as Lennon,Steed or a striker it is much easier to see how well they are playing and also alot easier to use their substitution as a tactical change.

Zokora does have some positives to his game such as his energy, his tackling and quite often to be fair to him his reading of the game BUT his passing is quite limited, he does go backward TOO often and yes he's a Defensive midfielder but IMO he's nothing special and needs to be playing with a very creative or attacking CM i.e Fabregas or Scholes type to look effective and sorry but Jenas isn't either of those.

This thread aswell as other bashing threads only come about because we lose BUT it's because of certain players poor performances that we do lose so these threads are to an extend justified.
Click to expand...

Frustrates the fucking life out of me, it really does. Not a personal attack at all mate... but we don't lose because of certain players. We lose as a team. We didn't lose today because of Berbatov being lazy to the extreme, we didn't lose because Zokora passed backwards, or because Jenas played right side for 45, or because Keane came off, or because Chimbonda didn't jump in his zone, or because we couldn't get decent ball into the box in the second half, or because Malbranque and Lennon had poor games, or because Bent was ineffective as a sub.

It's for all those reasons.

You see, it's NEVER down to one person why we lose. Same reason it's NEVER down to one person why we win.

But this forum of late seems intent on pinning the blame on one person every game. 6 months ago it was JJ. Low and behold he hits form, so the pressure is off. Now it's Bent and Zokora's turn.

How long till the "is Ramos good enough?" threads?
 
DFF

DFF

YOLO, Daniel
May 17, 2005
14,233
6,115
AngerManagement said:
Whatever Zokora does in his personal life is his own business, why should we stop him?
Click to expand...

Thanks to steadster's use of a comma, his sentence can only be interpreted one way. And it's not the way required for your "quip" to work. :lol:

Denied.
 
dannythomas

dannythomas

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2004
3,764
2,818
RussellYid said:
Frustrates the fucking life out of me, it really does. Not a personal attack at all mate... but we don't lose because of certain players. We lose as a team. We didn't lose today because of Berbatov being lazy to the extreme, we didn't lose because Zokora passed backwards, or because Jenas played right side for 45, or because Keane came off, or because Chimbonda didn't jump in his zone, or because we couldn't get decent ball into the box in the second half, or because Malbranque and Lennon had poor games, or because Bent was ineffective as a sub.

It's for all those reasons.

You see, it's NEVER down to one person why we lose. Same reason it's NEVER down to one person why we win.

But this forum of late seems intent on pinning the blame on one person every game. 6 months ago it was JJ. Low and behold he hits form, so the pressure is off. Now it's Bent and Zokora's turn.

How long till the "is Ramos good enough?" threads?
Click to expand...

Well it's a long way from stating my opinion that Zokora should not be immune from substitution to saying the manager is not up to it.

My personal opinion is that Zokora is a very average player ( at best ) and that he and Jenas do not combine well together. I have held this opinion for all of this season and last. I am going to continue to state that opinion unless he suddenly performs like a top class midfielder which I frankly do not see happening.

I do not slate the whole team every time we lose nor do I praise everyone whenever we win. We now have a much more solid defence , we have a number of options for wide midfield and a top class front 2. But centre midfield is an area that continues to be below top level despite numerous signings in those positions.

Now it may be that Jenas is not a top 4 player either. He does not grab hold of a game as he should do. But when he is released from his defensive duties with Tainio behind him he plays infinitely better. So I cannot understand why Zokora is preferrred. Statistics which have been aired on here a number of times show our points per game ratio is significantly better without Zokora. Our performance against Scum in the semi was easily our best of the season , Jenas was great ( in both matches ) and Tainio was outstanding against Fabregas.

Lots of people suggest that Zokora had a great match in the final. I disagree. He played ok in the first half ( a bit like today ) but then went missing again ( like today ) so that Hudd had to come on to reinforce the midfield. He did of course manage to concede 3 free kicks in scoring range ( including their goal ) and did anyone really fancy him to score when 1 on 1 with the keeper ? ah yes goes the counter argument but apart from these errors he had a great match. Really ? Then let's apply the same thing to Robinson . We should forget about the errors he makes because otherwise he is good. But Zokora's errors in that game actually cost us 2 goals - one conceded ( admittedly with help from Robbo ) and one not scored . That game too was crying out for Tainio to come on for Zokora but other options were taken. Fair enough . But in my eyes the fact that we won does not alter the fact that Tainio should have played. that in fact just goes to prove that it is not only when we lose that these critical threads appear.

I am fed up with us losing to the likes of Sunderland, Birmingham and Man city. We are 13 points behind a very poor City side ! 26 points behind a distinctly average Everton ! And of course it would be facile to blame that on Zokora. But the fact that we are still trailing behind despite our defensive improvements must have a root cause. And to me the biggest root cause is central midfield . And Zokora's presence week after week just annoys me as I think we have a number of better options.

So I agree with your point that we lose as a team. But our defence was fine. Keane and Berbatov did not have great games. But how many chances did our midfield make for them ? Give our front 2 a good supply line and they will produce. We were ok in the first half . We were unlucky with refereeing decisions. But taking off Lennon at half time and later Keane defied logic. That was removing most of our attacking threat. As we saw in last season's cuptie at the Bridge. It did not work then. Or today.
 
G

General Levy

Banned
Jun 7, 2007
4,295
9
dannythomas said:
Well it's a long way from stating my opinion that Zokora should not be immune from substitution to saying the manager is not up to it.

My personal opinion is that Zokora is a very average player ( at best ) and that he and Jenas do not combine well together. I have held this opinion for all of this season and last. I am going to continue to state that opinion unless he suddenly performs like a top class midfielder which I frankly do not see happening.

I do not slate the whole team every time we lose nor do I praise everyone whenever we win. We now have a much more solid defence , we have a number of options for wide midfield and a top class front 2. But centre midfield is an area that continues to be below top level despite numerous signings in those positions.

Now it may be that Jenas is not a top 4 player either. He does not grab hold of a game as he should do. But when he is released from his defensive duties with Tainio behind him he plays infinitely better. So I cannot understand why Zokora is preferrred. Statistics which have been aired on here a number of times show our points per game ratio is significantly better without Zokora. Our performance against Scum in the semi was easily our best of the season , Jenas was great ( in both matches ) and Tainio was outstanding against Fabregas.

Lots of people suggest that Zokora had a great match in the final. I disagree. He played ok in the first half ( a bit like today ) but then went missing again ( like today ) so that Hudd had to come on to reinforce the midfield. He did of course manage to concede 3 free kicks in scoring range ( including their goal ) and did anyone really fancy him to score when 1 on 1 with the keeper ? ah yes goes the counter argument but apart from these errors he had a great match. Really ? Then let's apply the same thing to Robinson . We should forget about the errors he makes because otherwise he is good. But Zokora's errors in that game actually cost us 2 goals - one conceded ( admittedly with help from Robbo ) and one not scored . That game too was crying out for Tainio to come on for Zokora but other options were taken. Fair enough . But in my eyes the fact that we won does not alter the fact that Tainio should have played. that in fact just goes to prove that it is not only when we lose that these critical threads appear.

I am fed up with us losing to the likes of Sunderland, Birmingham and Man city. We are 13 points behind a very poor City side ! 26 points behind a distinctly average Everton ! And of course it would be facile to blame that on Zokora. But the fact that we are still trailing behind despite our defensive improvements must have a root cause. And to me the biggest root cause is central midfield . And Zokora's presence week after week just annoys me as I think we have a number of better options.

So I agree with your point that we lose as a team. But our defence was fine. Keane and Berbatov did not have great games. But how many chances did our midfield make for them ? Give our front 2 a good supply line and they will produce. We were ok in the first half . We were unlucky with refereeing decisions. But taking off Lennon at half time and later Keane defied logic. That was removing most of our attacking threat. As we saw in last season's cuptie at the Bridge. It did not work then. Or today.
Click to expand...

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
 
muffwah

muffwah

Active Member
Feb 8, 2007
585
215
dannythomas said:
Another totally anonymous performance by DZ. However badly he plays he is NEVER substituted. Instead Lennon and Keane our most effective attacking players on the day are taken off . Is it written into Zokora's contract that he cannot be substituted ?
Click to expand...

What game were you watching? He was one of our better players. :bang:

It REALLY fucks me off how many people seem to take a dislike to a player and slate them at every opportunity, justified or not.
 
van_Pommel

van_Pommel

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2004
3,063
1,000
Same old people telling others they are not allowed to discuss their opinion on a FORUM! The title of the thread explains what is going to be discussed within the thread, so prepare yourself mentally to discuss your conflicting opinion without getting your knickers in a twist. More often than not the people who start these threads have been dissapointed with the player in questions performances for a while, so when they have a bad game it's a relavent time to bring it up, because their point has just been made.

Me personally, I dont rate Zokora or Jenas. Jenas has put in a few good performances this season, and does look much better next to Tainio. The thing with Jenas is he doesn't excell at anything, he's just ok. Alot of his reputation is based on important goals he has scored, like against Ar5ena1 last season when he equalised at the end, he'd been anonymous until then. He cannot boss the midfield, the reason for this being that he's a pussy. I can't think of a better word to explain it, you see him on the ball and he looks so casual and when he gets tackled it's as if he doesn't care, if he had Keano's heart he'd be class. Zokora's a similar case, he's ok at everything, the thing that lets him down is that he's stupid. Unlike JJ he has real heart on the pitch and you can see he's putting his all in, he just doesn't have the footballing brain to make it at a 'top 4' club. I still have high hopes for Huddlestone though, he just needs to be a bit more aggressive on the pitch.

I dont want Zokora to go in the summer. He's one of those players who you love because you can see he loves being at Spurs and I would imagine he's a nice guy. A bit like Jol, but like Jol, he's not going to take you to the next level. Zokora's a good squad player though and can cover CB,RB and CM. Jenas on the other hand, we could probably get a fair bit for because he's English and he's not gonna be happy on the bench. Incidentally a couple of people I know have met JJ and said he's rude and full of himself.
 
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