zokora the untouchable

AngerManagement · Oct 21, 2008

I remember saying that I thought both Zokora and Jenas were not up to the standard we needed in our engine room.

I said (and thought) that unless both were magically drastically improved under Ramos then he would replace them both with a higher calibre of player during the summer.

Sadley neither has happened, probably alot to do with of current predicament.

markie · Oct 21, 2008

yiddotilidie said:
Its funny how with him and Carrick in the middle we kept our highest number of clean sheets.

He is always our top scoring midfielder. His energy is ALWAYS missed when he doesn't play.

His final ball is poor i agree, but as he isn't meant to be the creative midfielder it isn't the end of the world.

More often than not he supports our strikers at one minute and is then our last minute helping out the defence - all while Zokora is running round in circles.

Im not saying that JJ is the answer, but the stick he gets compared to the lack of stick that Zoko the clown gets is very unfair.

At least with JJ you have energy and a possible goal - what the fuck does Zoko give us? Every single game he gets appluaded for making a run and doing nothing with it.

I suppose you are one of those fans that think Zokora is class

LOL... Very good!!! I would love to see our manager just change his mind and drop zokora for ONCE!!! Play hudd or o hara and the difference will be clear to see.

SpurSince57 · Oct 21, 2008

DEFchenkOE said:
I have to admit that this is correct. He is such an average player that you could put him in the Championship and he really wouldn't stand out. Strange thing is though, we look like a worse team when he isn't their. Maybe that says more about the lack of quality in our midfield rather than the quality in Jenas. He does have excellent work rate which you cannot fault him for. But then again so does Zokora, but he just doesn't use the ball well enough.

I've always been for us playing a 3 man central midfield to cover up these problems but this doesn't seem to be working either. We are kind of screwed, Modric is our best central attacking mid but he looks lost so far. Doesn't seem to be ready to go in the centre of a 4-4-2 next to an undisciplined defensive midfielder that's for sure. I'm trying to think of the right blance for our midfield but i'm serioously struggling to see which two compliment each other.

Imo both JJ and Zoko are poor footballers. This is why we can't dominate a game.

This is true. Possibly he is our best central midfielder, but that's rather like saying he's taller than Aaron Lennon. I agree with Has—I've spent three seasons defending him, but his inconsistency is getting too much for me. Zokora's improved, but simply isn't good enough to play in a two-man central midfield—playing that quasi-sweeper role in a 4-5-1 he's OK as long as he doesn't get pulled out of position. Unfortunately, he lacks the discipline and relies on his pace to get him ou of trouble. Huddlestone, despite having lost about three stone, still has the turning circle of a small oil tanker and can't tackle. He was bloody awful against Villa.

From what we have at the moment, if we're hellbent on playing a 4-5-1, I'd go with Corluka, O'Hara and Modric. Unfortunately the CB situation means we need Charlie there.

west indie · Oct 21, 2008

for me i would recall ghaly to the 1st team and play him in his prefered central midfield role at least he has the ability to go pass people and create something plus get stuck in as no progress is being made with the regular incumbants whatever formation they are asked to play.

to play the 5 man midfield you need players that have good awareness, movement & technique for me ramos should build the midfield around the hudd's awareness around him & passing ability instead of zokora & jenas athletism?

i feel we would be more fluid & balanced with a 5 of.. lennon-bentley-hudd-ghaly-modric,

Bill_Oddie · Oct 22, 2008

DC_Boy said:
hi yiddo

just put some stats up - confirming jj's overall superiority to DZ

http://footballstats.telegraph.co.uk/TeamPlayerStat08.aspx?optaid=6

the whole list is very revealing - we all know who's got more goals and assists

but who's won more tackles this season - JJ

15 -13

accurate passes - JJ again

371 - 296

it really is no contest

I'm not anti-zoko but he's not as good as JJ

15 Tackles?!? 15?!? Tackles?!? Winning the ball!? 15 times!?

15 Tackles!??!

And you're using this as evidence that he is a good player?

I have no stats, but let's specualte that JJ has played 10 games this season. Roughly speaking 900 minutes.

15 tackles in 900 minutes?

Just to clarify: You wish to submit this piece of evidence to us to say that Jermaine Jenas is a good central midfielder.

Do take your time, as this is a bold move and I'd hate you to go through with it unless you were fully comfortable.

What you propose (for those of you who join us late) is that in the case 'Jermaine Jenas Vs A Hypothetical Competent Midfielder' Exhibit A is a statistic that shows JJ has made one successful tackle every 60 minutes, every hour, of football.

One tackle every hour.

He probably releases flatulence more frequently than that.

Sorry for being a condescending prick and I know you were only comparing him to Didier Zokora, but the Ivorian has been playing full back for most games (hence his passing will be far, far lower if nothing else), and - as has been pointed out - we think Zokora's pretty ordinary too.

Being better than him means nothing.

Jenas is captain. He should be getting BETTER reviews/stats than Gomes, Woodgate, King, Bent, and every other bugger. He isn't and no stats - especially these - can mask that.

DC, I've followed JJ since he was at Forest. His potential is clear. But, almost like the girl is the rhyme, when he is good, he's very, very good, but when he is bad, he is anonymous. And that simply isn't an option in a Premiership midfield.

At this moment, I'd be happy if we did a straight swap for Jimmy Bullard.

Come on JJ, prove me wrong.

SpurSince57 said:
This is true. Possibly he is our best central midfielder, but that's rather like saying he's taller than Aaron Lennon. I agree with Has—I've spent three seasons defending him, but his inconsistency is getting too much for me. Zokora's improved, but simply isn't good enough to play in a two-man central midfield—playing that quasi-sweeper role in a 4-5-1 he's OK as long as he doesn't get pulled out of position. Unfortunately, he lacks the discipline and relies on his pace to get him ou of trouble. Huddlestone, despite having lost about three stone, still has the turning circle of a small oil tanker and can't tackle. He was bloody awful against Villa.

From what we have at the moment, if we're hellbent on playing a 4-5-1, I'd go with Corluka, O'Hara and Modric. Unfortunately the CB situation means we need Charlie there.

Great post. Agree on all bar your choice of central midfielders but think they're worth a shot and would like to see it if the CB situation allowed.

DC_Boy · Oct 22, 2008

Hi Bill

we've always got on well and when I read your post I was a little disappointed/irritated - and first of all replied you were being condescending etc (not the other bit of that phrase you used BTW

- I never use rude words to describe other people on here

but you know thinking about it - why am I falling out with someone I don't know but have have always been friendly with?

it's all pointless

so this is my last post on SC football forums (the others seem to be less confrontational - I'm enjoying a nice economics debate ATM for example) - and that's not to have a go at you Bill - it's a cumulative thing - this is just the proverbial last straw - because you are one of the nice guys and when I perceive that you're having a go at me - well maybe it's me that's the problem

every so often people will be rude to me - (and some objectively are - it's not just my thin-skinned perception) and I just don't like it or understand it - same way I don't like or understand why people want to go to the lane and have a go at our players

PS re the tackles - check out modric's stats

anyway as I say - no criticism of you Bill

or of SC - it's just I think I'm too thin-skinned for football chat forums - maybe chat forums in general - but that's a wait and see thing- it's probably cos I get so emotional about the club I love that I can't handle the football chat

I've had a good run on here - learnt a lot

I'll still read the forum -but I don't want to keep upsetting myself by getting involved in arguments

ultimateloner · Oct 22, 2008

I'm sick of the Zokora bashers. While his passing ability is limited he is one of the few players in our team with strength and stamina. He could play 90mins.

He is also willing to play for the team. He was shifted to LB against stoke, and he is always moved about to complement the team's tatical needs. He's played RB earlier when Hutton was out.

Contrast this with Bentley's reluctance to play anywhere except what he deems appropriate.

Zokora is a model professional, a likeable character and for these qualities he should stay in the starting lineup.

Bill_Oddie · Oct 22, 2008

DC_Boy said:
Hi Bill

we've always got on well and when I read your post I was a little disappointed/irritated - and first of all replied you were being condescending etc (not the other bit of that phrase you used BTW - I never use rude words to describe other people on here

but you know thinking about it - why am I falling out with someone I don't know but have have always been friendly with?

it's all pointless

so this is my last post on SC football forums (the others seem to be less confrontational - I'm enjoying a nice economics debate ATM for example) - and that's not to have a go at you Bill - it's a cumulative thing - this is just the proverbial last straw - because you are one of the nice guys and when I perceive that you're having a go at me - well maybe it's me that's the problem

every so often people will be rude to me - (and some objectively are - it's not just my thin-skinned perception) and I just don't like it or understand it - same way I don't like or understand why people want to go to the lane and have a go at our players

PS re the tackles - check out modric's stats

anyway as I say - no criticism of you Bill or of SC - it's just I think I'm too thin-skinned for football chat forums - maybe chat forums in general - but that's a wait and see thing- it's probably cos I get so emotional about the club I love that I can't handle the football chat

I've had a good run on here - learnt a lot

I'll still read the forum -but I don't want to keep upsetting myself by getting involved in arguments

Hey DC.

I'm genuinely sorry if I've caused anyone to stop posting here. Kind of the opposite of what I should be about. However, I appreciate you saying it's not just me.

I would seriously check out more than stats when judging Jenas, and I hope you understand that all we're saying is that the whole of the Spurs midfield has been terrible. That includes Jenas. He may be the best...you think so, others agree, others don't...but I think it doesn't matter - hence my frustration.

I honestly think Jenas should be way better. And I've watched him since seeing him in the flesh as a 18 year old at the City Ground. I don't mean better than Modric or better than Zokora. I mean better than every other midfielder in the country bar the special, special ones like Gerrard and Lampard.

It isn't an exaggeration to say that's how good he can be. Hence why I won't stand by and listen to comments like 'He's made 2 more tackles than Zokora' as evidence that he is a great player. Honestly, it's offensive to the talent and potential of the man himself.

My frustrations are entirely with him though - so I really am sorry that that came over as abuse towards you. Probably a few other things going on in my mind. We're going through enough stress as Spurs fans at the moment without silly things like this getting between us.

Anyway, I hope you do continue to contribute - maybe after a well earned break :wink: - you know where to find us and I'll keep you a seat warm. :up:

markie · Oct 22, 2008

Bill_Oddie said:
Sorry for being a condescending prick and I know you were only comparing him to Didier Zokora, but the Ivorian has been playing full back for most games (hence his passing will be far, far lower if nothing else), and - as has been pointed out - we think Zokora's pretty ordinary too.

Surely his tackle rate should be better than jj's because he is playing in defence...

markie · Oct 22, 2008

ultimateloner said:
Zokora is a model professional, a likeable character and for these qualities he should stay in the starting lineup.

if it was just these qualities that get you into a premiership club then I'm sure there are a lot of people out there that could give it a go...

how about the crankies? Bruce forsyth?

DEFchenkOE · Oct 22, 2008

SpurSince57 said:
This is true. Possibly he is our best central midfielder, but that's rather like saying he's taller than Aaron Lennon. I agree with Has—I've spent three seasons defending him, but his inconsistency is getting too much for me. Zokora's improved, but simply isn't good enough to play in a two-man central midfield—playing that quasi-sweeper role in a 4-5-1 he's OK as long as he doesn't get pulled out of position. Unfortunately, he lacks the discipline and relies on his pace to get him ou of trouble. Huddlestone, despite having lost about three stone, still has the turning circle of a small oil tanker and can't tackle. He was bloody awful against Villa.

From what we have at the moment, if we're hellbent on playing a 4-5-1, I'd go with Corluka, O'Hara and Modric. Unfortunately the CB situation means we need Charlie there.

Good post. I think it was in another thread that I said that for me COrluka is our best defensive midfielder but obviously we need him at cb right now. The King situation affecting us in more ways than one. I've always thought that we should be playing a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 with the players we have but they don't seem to have the knowledge to play like this. Often leaving the lone striker seriously lonely. Maybe we should just go 4-4-2, stick Bent and Pav up top. Put Bentley on the right, Lennon on the left. Tell them to get as much crosses in the box and just hope for the best. Tell the two cm's to just sit deep. I think this could be our only way out right now.

Hudd definitely was poor against Villa and I think Ramos has hardly played him since. If he had any pace whatsoever then he would have been a permanent fixture in our midfield for at least the last year. But the guy just can't get around the pitch. I thought that maybe playing him in an attacking role would help but then he's not exactly great at creating space for himself either.

I just wonder if it's worth giving Ghaly or Boateng a game. I seriously don't think they could be much worse than a combination of Zokora and Jenas. I actually think Boateng could have attributes for a decent, although limited defensive midfielder. Although maybe others who have seen him more regularly than me would disagree.

DC_Boy · Oct 22, 2008

Bill_Oddie said:
Hey DC.

I'm genuinely sorry if I've caused anyone to stop posting here. Kind of the opposite of what I should be about. However, I appreciate you saying it's not just me.

I would seriously check out more than stats when judging Jenas, and I hope you understand that all we're saying is that the whole of the Spurs midfield has been terrible. That includes Jenas. He may be the best...you think so, others agree, others don't...but I think it doesn't matter - hence my frustration.

I honestly think Jenas should be way better. And I've watched him since seeing him in the flesh as a 18 year old at the City Ground. I don't mean better than Modric or better than Zokora. I mean better than every other midfielder in the country bar the special, special ones like Gerrard and Lampard.

It isn't an exaggeration to say that's how good he can be. Hence why I won't stand by and listen to comments like 'He's made 2 more tackles than Zokora' as evidence that he is a great player. Honestly, it's offensive to the talent and potential of the man himself.

My frustrations are entirely with him though - so I really am sorry that that came over as abuse towards you. Probably a few other things going on in my mind. We're going through enough stress as Spurs fans at the moment without silly things like this getting between us.

Anyway, I hope you do continue to contribute - maybe after a well earned break :wink: - you know where to find us and I'll keep you a seat warm. :up:

Hi Bill - no probs -

as I say it's a cumulative thing, not to do with you who are one of the good guys - thanks for the kind words - maybe when JJ leaves the club I can come back on here and know I won't have to get involved in arguments on a daily basis

ys I could ignore the JJ comments - but that's not in my nature

plus there's always something to fall out over on a football forum -

anyway a rest might do me some good - I'm sure it'll please a few on here

yiddotilidie · Oct 22, 2008

Bill_Oddie said:
15 Tackles?!? 15?!? Tackles?!? Winning the ball!? 15 times!?

15 Tackles!??!

And you're using this as evidence that he is a good player?

I have no stats, but let's specualte that JJ has played 10 games this season. Roughly speaking 900 minutes.

15 tackles in 900 minutes?

Just to clarify: You wish to submit this piece of evidence to us to say that Jermaine Jenas is a good central midfielder.

Do take your time, as this is a bold move and I'd hate you to go through with it unless you were fully comfortable.

What you propose (for those of you who join us late) is that in the case 'Jermaine Jenas Vs A Hypothetical Competent Midfielder' Exhibit A is a statistic that shows JJ has made one successful tackle every 60 minutes, every hour, of football.

One tackle every hour.

He probably releases flatulence more frequently than that.

Sorry for being a condescending prick and I know you were only comparing him to Didier Zokora, but the Ivorian has been playing full back for most games (hence his passing will be far, far lower if nothing else), and - as has been pointed out - we think Zokora's pretty ordinary too.

Being better than him means nothing.

Jenas is captain. He should be getting BETTER reviews/stats than Gomes, Woodgate, King, Bent, and every other bugger. He isn't and no stats - especially these - can mask that.

DC, I've followed JJ since he was at Forest. His potential is clear. But, almost like the girl is the rhyme, when he is good, he's very, very good, but when he is bad, he is anonymous. And that simply isn't an option in a Premiership midfield.

At this moment, I'd be happy if we did a straight swap for Jimmy Bullard.

Come on JJ, prove me wrong.

Great post. Agree on all bar your choice of central midfielders but think they're worth a shot and would like to see it if the CB situation allowed.

The point wasn't to prove that JJ was a class player, but to prove that he is more effective than Zokora!

Bus-Conductor · Oct 22, 2008

DEFchenkOE said:
I have to admit that this is correct. He is such an average player that you could put him in the Championship and he really wouldn't stand out. Strange thing is though, we look like a worse team when he isn't their. Maybe that says more about the lack of quality in our midfield rather than the quality in Jenas. He does have excellent work rate which you cannot fault him for. But then again so does Zokora, but he just doesn't use the ball well enough.

I've always been for us playing a 3 man central midfield to cover up these problems but this doesn't seem to be working either. We are kind of screwed, Modric is our best central attacking mid but he looks lost so far. Doesn't seem to be ready to go in the centre of a 4-4-2 next to an undisciplined defensive midfielder that's for sure. I'm trying to think of the right blance for our midfield but i'm serioously struggling to see which two compliment each other.

Imo both JJ and Zoko are poor footballers. This is why we can't dominate a game.

THis is a really strange and daft thing to say. In every game except Chelsea we have dominated possession as follows:

Boro 65%
Sund 62%
Villa 62.5%
Wigan 54% *
Portsmouth 66%
Hull 66%
Stoke 57%

* Wigan could not locate on sky.com. Working off memory.

We are dominating every game by more than we ever have in my recent memory. Half of those are away games as well, and one with ten men.

Have you ever actually watched us play ?

What we aren't doing is scoring. One thing we are definately unequivically doing is dominating games.

DEFchenkOE · Oct 22, 2008

Bus-Conductor said:
THis is a really strange and daft thing to say. In every game except Chelsea we have dominated possession as follows:

Boro 65%
Sund 62%
Villa 62.5%
Wigan 54% *
Portsmouth 66%
Hull 66%
Stoke 57%

* Wigan could not locate on sky.com. Working off memory.

We are dominating every game by more than we ever have in my recent memory. Half of those are away games as well, and one with ten men.

Have you ever actually watched us play ?

What we aren't doing is scoring. One thing we are definately unequivically doing is dominating games.

Yea and please show me the stat that says where we had all that possession. As I can guarentee you that the majority of it would be in our own half. Of course I've watched us play, but please tell me the benefit of having a higher possession stat against teams like Hull and Wigan when it is mostly in our half. Remind me how many clear cut chances we've created this season again??????

AW? · Oct 22, 2008

Not another bloody Zokora thread.

markie · Oct 22, 2008

Arsenalwho? said:
Not another bloody Zokora thread.

theres a reason for it... He is awful and needs to stop being played in the squad... This is a good place to rant!

nicdic · Oct 22, 2008

He's one of our best players.

walworthyid · Oct 22, 2008

markie said:
theres a reason for it... He is awful and needs to stop being played in the squad... This is a good place to rant!

Fair enough, Zokora is not very good, but is Jenas any better?

If I had my way the following players would be sold immediately;

Huddlecrap
Bent (so bad it is just not funny)
Jenas
Zokora (might keep him because he can play several positions)
Dawson
Campbell sent back to the mancs

I don't want these players playing so much that I wouldn't even demand that we replace them first. Not one of them adds anything to our team, at all.

DEFchenkOE · Oct 22, 2008

walworthyid said:
Fair enough, Zokora is not very good, but is Jenas any better?

If I had my way the following players would be sold immediately;

Huddlecrap
Bent (so bad it is just not funny)
Jenas
Zokora (might keep him because he can play several positions)
Dawson
Campbell sent back to the mancs

I don't want these players playing so much that I wouldn't even demand that we replace them first. Not one of them adds anything to our team, at all.

They shouldn't be sold without replacement as we don't have much better. If anything they would make good squad players but should'nt really be starting.

I think you're being very harsh on Bent though.

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