The solution to our problems (I think)

SpurSince57 said:

One of his best performances for me was after we switched to 4-5-1 against Chelsea and he was mopping up effectively behind Jenas and Ghaly whilst they took on (and largely took out) Essien and Lumpard.

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Bobishism said:

What we need is squad discipline and player defined roles for the players in our team. We should abandon the fluid style of football in exchange for a more role orientated team.

As everyone knows, JJ is a great athelete. We should instruct him to chase the ball all over the pitch and nip at players in the way Davids did.

We should pair him with Ghaly, another versatile midfielder to pair up with him in the middle. Although Malbranque can also play this role, he doesn't have the required energy levels to run up and down the pitch on a constantly. (Although I'm sure Ghaly probably can't either. He is a box-to-box midfielder and at Feyenoord he did actually run). Both players can pass the ball, tackle and are balanced.

Naturally, I'd have Zokora mopping up in defensive midfield. Criticize him all you want, he has all the attributes to succeed there. The rest of our midfield are fantastic passers of the long ball, Zokora's pretty decent too. I think he's not sure as when to pass the ball which could be an adaption issue, or he might just be rather stupid. Either way, with two great passing midfielder in front of him a short pass is adequate. Although it could slow down our tempo. TT could adapt to this role, although Zokora can potentially excel at it.

One of the great things about our midfield is there all versatile enough to swap roles if one gets out of position. I don't think we're actually using this to our advantage presently.

With three in midfield, that leaves three up front. I'm not sure if Berbatov's strong enough yet to play that role but he's decent in the air and he can create chances with the ball at his feet. Without another player to feed through we may struggle to find goals, but we're hardly banging them in at the moment. Saying this, the left and right sided attackers would support as would Jenas.

On the right you could play Lennon.

On the left I'd play Lee or Defoe. Both have the pace to cause damage and both can beat a man.

I'd like to see us try this tactic once. It could be beneficial to the team to have a few other tactical options.

Chimbonda Rocha Dawson Ekotto
Zokora/Tainio
Lennon Ghaly/Malbranque Jenas Lee / Defoe
Berbatov/ Mido

Congested in defense, options in attack. Perfect for tough away games. Does seem a bit 1-0 though. Strong midfield etc.

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muffwah said:

Passing
4 Didier Zokora 681 84.4%
Tackling
5 Didier Zokora 51 82.4%
Fouls Won
1 Didier Zokora 47


Sounds a lot like he is doing his job to me, he is just a holding player in the way Makelele and Sissoko are. He is capable of surging runs with the ball. I have no fking idea why everyone is on his back, if he had been playing with Jenas (who will actually tackle and work hard) instead of Hudd (talented but sometimes a non-entity) recently I don't think our midfield would have got overrun as often.

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joey55 said:

You are ignoring the fact that he has played four or five games more than the other midfielders. Despite this, the Hudd has already made more passes, Malbranque is level on tackles, and until then Utd game JJ was ahead in terms of tackling. In the original Zokora thread I showed the average tackles per game made by our CM and Zokora was 4th. Now Malbranque had come into the picture, he will be 5th. The tackling stats for the Hudd were unavailable, but I suspect his will be superior to Zokora's. Also despite playing deep the Hudd has already made the most crosses from midfield and had either the most or 2nd behind JJ shots at goal. He has also scored and made 2 assists. As SS57 has pointed out, the most fouls stat isn't a good one for you to point out for him.

You wonder why people are on his back. It is clear he is the least effective midfielder we have. He doesn't tackle or pass enough, in a 2 man midfield he has to be considerably more involved and the work he does has to be more expansive than that of Makelele who typically plays in a 3. If you want proof that his critics aren't talking nonsense then look at how much better we are without him. When he plays our goal difference is -13 and when he doesn't it is +5. This is a difference of 18 goals! The trouble is, as highlighted in the games against the Scum and Utd, he doesn't protect the back 4 very well, and neither does he link the play with the attacking players well. Hence we concede more when he plays and score less. He tackles and closes down, but this is nowhere near enough. I couldn't believe some peole praised him for his recent performances, simply because he put in tackles and ran around. If midfield play is so simple I might as well get fit and become a proffessional footballer. We average 1.2 pts per game with Zokora and 1.7 without him. If these averages were taken over a season, without him we'd finish 5th/6th and with him playing every game 14th/15th. This is ironic as last season with him St Ettiene finished 13th and this season having not even bothered to replace him they are 5th.

Most damning of all though is the fact that in the 11 games in which Zokora has not featured this season, we have never lost. We've won 8 and drawn 3. People say he is suited to Europe and is one of our best players in European competition. This isn't true. In our one seriously impressive European game, away in the hostile environment of Besiktas, where we were clapped of the pitch by their fans, Zokora didn't play. Also the only time we have managed an away win in the Premiership this season Zokora didn't play.

I think it is about time those who think Zokora is good and can't understand the criticism he recieves just held their hands up and admitted in this case they got in wrong. Zokora hasn't been a little dissapointing for us, he has been a catastrophe. I actually don't think a lot of those who would prefer we didn't start with Zokora realise just how bad he is. If you judge him purely what he does on the ball, then I can understand why you don't think he is a bad player. We often see him tackling and making neat passes and the occassional run. But, really this is a very naive view. You must look at how he effects the team overall. How can a player with such limited passing turn deffense into attack in the way you must in a 2 man CM. How can a player who is so positionally naive protect the back 4? He can't and our current league postion and the stats I've shown you prove this. It really irritates me when people think those who don't rate Zokora have a problem with him and just want to use him as a scapegoat. This is absurd (apart from in the case of FredMoney) as none of us even know the guy, so have no reason to dislike him. We are simply concerned about the club and criticise simply because he has a very negative effect on the team.

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double0 said:

Agree with BC

I find it puzzling how the emphasis has shifted onto Zokora again. Maybe its just me but imo theirs greater problems beside Zokora.

My summary on things spurs.

1. INJURIES - Ledley King is a massive hole, the list goes on.

2. The form of Paul Robinson has been highlighted recently but is a massive problem. Hasnt been good enough this season, like it or not he has cost us on to many occasion. He should be replaced with Cerny quickly before it becomes a relegation battle, IMO i dont see him improving.

3. Dawson has to much responsiblity he is very impressionable Ie... with King he plays great but without him and the poor form of Robbo, he isn't mentally ready to be the leader at the back, form has suffered because of it. (12 goals in 4 games)

4. The left side of midfield, malbranque doesn't have the correct discipline to play the role, drifts erratically causing the shape of the team to suffers. Often fails to help the left back which has become our obvious achillies heel, the prime area of attack by other teams.

5. Huddlestones inexperience of the epl, lack of pace and amount of games played inculding eu21's has caught up on him. Hudd is still learning about central midfield in the premiership, the important points of how you are with and without the ball, very good in one respect but very poor without the ball, a passenger it has to be said that fails to track back quickly enough.

6. Zokora has been slow adjusting to english football espcially away from the lane, same can be said about Berbatov but this is quite common with many foreign imports. Alot of pressure on him because of Carrick, which is abit unfair.

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Bus-Conductor said:

I think you miss the point Joey. It's not that most of us are saying (or thinking) that Zokora is brilliant or the next Viera - just not the cause of all our problems like you think. Or anywhere near as catastrophically bad as you have been preaching. He is not the reason we have been poor away or let in stupid goals allseason (What about against Liverpool? Did you watch the games against Arsenal?). There are three much bigger catastrophies in Robinson, Dason & Ekotto.

Zokora has put in more decent performances than just about every one of our central midfielders(When?) at home except Huddlestone. That includes Tianio, Ghaly, Murphy, Jenas. None have those has had one outstanding game this seasn, Zokora has a least had a couple and few more pretty decent ones.(At leats they've all contributed with either premiership goals or assists. Zokora has never had an outstanding game for Spurs. In Europe he has done well against poor opppostion, as he has in the FA Cup, but you obviously aren't counting these games as you said JJ has never had a grat game this season, when he wa excellent against Southend. Also you have compared Zokora to Ghaly and Murphy performace wise, yet they've played out wide this season. Why then haven't you compared him to Lennon or Steed? The truth is our problem has been in the CM, where die to injuries and Jol no longer thinking Davids was ip to it, zokora has played easily the most games.)

You are definately blaming the wrong man. There is a very long list of wankers who are not good enough or under perorming before you start with this bloke and Jol is at the top of the pile. His tactics are predictable and he fits the team round personnel. Robinson, Ekotto & Dawson have been culpable in prbably 75% of all goals.

Then work down through part time wasters like Murphy, Ghaly who flatter a little and deliver nish. (Murphy has hardly played thought has created and scored in the Premiership. Ghaly has largelly been a back up on the right. had he played as much as Zokora I'd be blaming him as well.)

Then Jenas, who started the season porly, missed a vital sitter at Liverpool and then got injured. (JJ never started the season poorly, he was by far our best midfielder. I started a thread called JJ the magnificent. Before his injury he was also at the top of vitually all our opta stat charts. You mention the sitter he missed against Liverpool, but have you forgotten the magnificent run that got him there. I'd much rather have a player who runs the length of the pitch and just misses, than a player who passes to one of the opposition players on the edge of our box. Different games, but the same team. Don't mention the word Liverpool it doesn't do Zokora any favours. He was our deffensive midfielder in a 3-0 defeat and then gifted them the game at WHL.)

Throw in Tianio who is constantly injured. I can't blame him for being injured. It is a problem though, as we have to play Zokora.

Then you can get down to the fact that Zokora has not performed brilliantly away when basically being the only vaguely defensive player from the defence upwards inteams which have been collectively shit and he will (but TT replaced him as the deffensive player and we won away from home. Why didn't TT blame the rest of the team?), perhaps imrove with better team consistancy/selection and a season under his belt (tell this to the St Ettiene fans. He got worse in his second season there) and you will be closer to the truth.

The fact is as a team we've improved all over the pitch, except in the CM, where Zokora has played more than anyone else. In the 11 games in which he hasn't featured we are undefeated, winning a brilliant 8 of them. We put in our best performace in Europe without him, we on average earn an extra 0.5 pts per game when he doesn't play. Over a season that is 19pts! Yes others haven't played well, but I was responding to the question of why people get on Zokora's back. He is a very poor player. I like the fact you defend him, as I myself, like to stick up for the under dog, or prole that are being singled out. But this is a forum, Zokora isn't actually being effected by this. When the games are being played all his critics cheer for him. But come on, pull your head out of the clouds. The guy is a liability. It's time to call a spade a spade.

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joey55 said:

Bus-Conductor said:

I think you miss the point Joey. It's not that most of us are saying (or thinking) that Zokora is brilliant or the next Viera - just not the cause of all our problems like you think. Or anywhere near as catastrophically bad as you have been preaching. He is not the reason we have been poor away or let in stupid goals allseason (What about against Liverpool? Did you watch the games against Arsenal?). There are three much bigger catastrophies in Robinson, Dason & Ekotto.

Zokora has put in more decent performances than just about every one of our central midfielders(When?) at home except Huddlestone. That includes Tianio, Ghaly, Murphy, Jenas. None have those has had one outstanding game this seasn, Zokora has a least had a couple and few more pretty decent ones.(At leats they've all contributed with either premiership goals or assists. Zokora has never had an outstanding game for Spurs. In Europe he has done well against poor opppostion, as he has in the FA Cup, but you obviously aren't counting these games as you said JJ has never had a grat game this season, when he wa excellent against Southend. Also you have compared Zokora to Ghaly and Murphy performace wise, yet they've played out wide this season. Why then haven't you compared him to Lennon or Steed? The truth is our problem has been in the CM, where die to injuries and Jol no longer thinking Davids was ip to it, zokora has played easily the most games.)

You are definately blaming the wrong man. There is a very long list of wankers who are not good enough or under perorming before you start with this bloke and Jol is at the top of the pile. His tactics are predictable and he fits the team round personnel. Robinson, Ekotto & Dawson have been culpable in prbably 75% of all goals.

Then work down through part time wasters like Murphy, Ghaly who flatter a little and deliver nish. (Murphy has hardly played thought has created and scored in the Premiership. Ghaly has largelly been a back up on the right. had he played as much as Zokora I'd be blaming him as well.)

Then Jenas, who started the season porly, missed a vital sitter at Liverpool and then got injured. (JJ never started the season poorly, he was by far our best midfielder. I started a thread called JJ the magnificent. Before his injury he was also at the top of vitually all our opta stat charts. You mention the sitter he missed against Liverpool, but have you forgotten the magnificent run that got him there. I'd much rather have a player who runs the length of the pitch and just misses, than a player who passes to one of the opposition players on the edge of our box. Different games, but the same team. Don't mention the word Liverpool it doesn't do Zokora any favours. He was our deffensive midfielder in a 3-0 defeat and then gifted them the game at WHL.)

Throw in Tianio who is constantly injured. I can't blame him for being injured. It is a problem though, as we have to play Zokora.

Then you can get down to the fact that Zokora has not performed brilliantly away when basically being the only vaguely defensive player from the defence upwards inteams which have been collectively shit and he will (but TT replaced him as the deffensive player and we won away from home. Why didn't TT blame the rest of the team?), perhaps imrove with better team consistancy/selection and a season under his belt (tell this to the St Ettiene fans. He got worse in his second season there) and you will be closer to the truth.

The fact is as a team we've improved all over the pitch, except in the CM, where Zokora has played more than anyone else. In the 11 games in which he hasn't featured we are undefeated, winning a brilliant 8 of them. We put in our best performace in Europe without him, we on average earn an extra 0.5 pts per game when he doesn't play. Over a season that is 19pts! Yes others haven't played well, but I was responding to the question of why people get on Zokora's back. He is a very poor player. I like the fact you defend him, as I myself, like to stick up for the under dog, or prole that are being singled out. But this is a forum, Zokora isn't actually being effected by this. When the games are being played all his critics cheer for him. But come on, pull your head out of the clouds. The guy is a liability. It's time to call a spade a spade.

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Joey,

You ignore what I said. I am not saying he's the answer to whatever the question may be. What I am saying is he is certainly not the biggest liability. And I am not defending him because he is an underdog, I am defending him because like Lee and Davids he has been unjustly singled out - especially by you - as a scapegoat. When far bigger culprits are still being held up as heros on here.

Zokora is probably not going to be the next Patrick Viera. But he's definately as good/better/more valuable than Tianio, Ghaly, Murphy, Brown, Davies.

There are plenty of players who have stepped up on a first season in the prem. There is no certainty he will be one of them but he could. All I am saying is I am willing to give the bloke a chance.

If we are going to call spades spades then lets start with our tactically woeful manager, our shockingly poor keeper, our slow brained cumbersome centre back or the lethargic part time left back.

That is what I am saying.

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SpurSince57 said:

And make Jenas captain in King's absence. Robinson and Keane have too many problems with their own form at the moment to do the job (and I don't agree with the notion of keepers as captain in any case). He's the only real alternative, and the responsibility might just be the making of him.

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SpurSince57 said:

And our strikers are totally exempt from criticism, of course.

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Tequila said:

considering that mido more or less never plays. maybe we should try playing to keane and defoes attributes, until we do its harsh to be so judgementla of them. I am not really defending them as i think keane has been woeful, but watching us play, we dont use them as we should. so whos to blame.

Only berbatov seems to thrive on the punts from the back, or at least has the attributes to fit that style of play.

You put defoe in a proper footballing team, and he will score tons. Im confident of that. keane is an enigma for sure,

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SpurSince57 said:

You are? Well, I'm glad of that.

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Bobbins said:

Why is Keane an enigma? I thought he was just shit now? There's certainly been nothing enigmatic about how truly eyeball-scratchingly God-awful his recent performances have been.

I suppose his flappy attempts to fly are still rather a mystery, though.

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Bus-Conductor said:

joey55 said:

Bus-Conductor said:

I think you miss the point Joey. It's not that most of us are saying (or thinking) that Zokora is brilliant or the next Viera - just not the cause of all our problems like you think. Or anywhere near as catastrophically bad as you have been preaching. He is not the reason we have been poor away or let in stupid goals allseason (What about against Liverpool? Did you watch the games against Arsenal?). There are three much bigger catastrophies in Robinson, Dason & Ekotto.

Zokora has put in more decent performances than just about every one of our central midfielders(When?) at home except Huddlestone. That includes Tianio, Ghaly, Murphy, Jenas. None have those has had one outstanding game this seasn, Zokora has a least had a couple and few more pretty decent ones.(At leats they've all contributed with either premiership goals or assists. Zokora has never had an outstanding game for Spurs. In Europe he has done well against poor opppostion, as he has in the FA Cup, but you obviously aren't counting these games as you said JJ has never had a grat game this season, when he wa excellent against Southend. Also you have compared Zokora to Ghaly and Murphy performace wise, yet they've played out wide this season. Why then haven't you compared him to Lennon or Steed? The truth is our problem has been in the CM, where die to injuries and Jol no longer thinking Davids was ip to it, zokora has played easily the most games.)

You are definately blaming the wrong man. There is a very long list of wankers who are not good enough or under perorming before you start with this bloke and Jol is at the top of the pile. His tactics are predictable and he fits the team round personnel. Robinson, Ekotto & Dawson have been culpable in prbably 75% of all goals.

Then work down through part time wasters like Murphy, Ghaly who flatter a little and deliver nish. (Murphy has hardly played thought has created and scored in the Premiership. Ghaly has largelly been a back up on the right. had he played as much as Zokora I'd be blaming him as well.)

Then Jenas, who started the season porly, missed a vital sitter at Liverpool and then got injured. (JJ never started the season poorly, he was by far our best midfielder. I started a thread called JJ the magnificent. Before his injury he was also at the top of vitually all our opta stat charts. You mention the sitter he missed against Liverpool, but have you forgotten the magnificent run that got him there. I'd much rather have a player who runs the length of the pitch and just misses, than a player who passes to one of the opposition players on the edge of our box. Different games, but the same team. Don't mention the word Liverpool it doesn't do Zokora any favours. He was our deffensive midfielder in a 3-0 defeat and then gifted them the game at WHL.)

Throw in Tianio who is constantly injured. I can't blame him for being injured. It is a problem though, as we have to play Zokora.

Then you can get down to the fact that Zokora has not performed brilliantly away when basically being the only vaguely defensive player from the defence upwards inteams which have been collectively shit and he will (but TT replaced him as the deffensive player and we won away from home. Why didn't TT blame the rest of the team?), perhaps imrove with better team consistancy/selection and a season under his belt (tell this to the St Ettiene fans. He got worse in his second season there) and you will be closer to the truth.

Joey,

You ignore what I said. I am not saying he's the answer to whatever the question may be. What I am saying is he is certainly not the biggest liability. And I am not defending him because he is an underdog, I am defending him because like Lee and Davids he has been unjustly singled out - especially by you - as a scapegoat. When far bigger culprits are still being held up as heros on here.

Zokora is probably not going to be the next Patrick Viera. But he's definately as good/better/more valuable than Tianio, Ghaly, Murphy, Brown, Davies.

There are plenty of players who have stepped up on a first season in the prem. There is no certainty he will be one of them but he could. All I am saying is I am willing to give the bloke a chance.

If we are going to call spades spades then lets start with our tactically woeful manager, our shockingly poor keeper, our slow brained cumbersome centre back or the lethargic part time left back.

That is what I am saying.

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Im not missing the point, I'm answering the question. muffwah said he couldn't understand why people were getting Zokora's back, so I pointed out numerous reasons why. Also whilst you might not be saying he is the next Vieira, there are people that have stupidly high opinions of him. I've been trying to lay of the guy recently, but NickTopSpurs said he thinks he is our best midfielder and Spursking said he thinks he is the best we've ever had at the club. Therefore it is difficult to restrain myself from explaining, that he is far from that.

The players that you say he is better or more valuable than have either left the club or hardly played. How can I blame our poor season on Murphy? The guy has hardly played and when he has, other than the Cardiff game he's done well. The same goes for TT. I see our major problem as the CM and Zokora has been our most regular starter there. You blame Robbo, Daws and Jol, but they all helped us finish 5th last season, whilst Zokora was busy helping guide St Ettiene to 13th. Jol took us to 9th in his first season, having finished 14th the season before and 5th last season, our highest ever Premiership finish. He hasn't suddenly become a bad coach. Maybe Robbo and Daws (I don't think he has been that bad at all this season) were just as bad last year, but the difference was we had a decent DM protecting them.

This season we have seen weaknesses all over the park, but these are highlighted due to our inability to control games from the middle of the park. The other areas are important and perhaps we do need to stregthen there, but they are not as key as the problem we have in the middle when Zokora plays.

We've never lost when Zokora hasn't featured, winning 8 and drawing three.
We played our best game in Europe at Besiktas without Zokora.
When Zokora doesn't play we have a goal difference of +5 and when he does it is -13.
We average 1.2 pts per game with him and 1.5 pts per game without him.
We won our only away game without Zokora.
We have strengthend all round from last year yet we are 11th now having been 4th this time last season.
Zokora is our only midfiled to have neither a prem goal or assist.
St Ettiene are challenging for the CL, having not replaced him, followng finishing 13th last year.

Surely all these things can't just be a big coincidence? the simple fact is no matter what team we put out, if Zokora is in it we concede more and score less. If you watch carefully you'll see he doesn't link the deffence and attack well enough. BMJ even mentioned this as our main problem in a Dutch interview he did after the Scum game recently. Neither does he offer the defence sufficient protection. You say i'm making him the scapegoat, but I'm just pointing what the problem is. It's not rocket science. There isn't any point arguing with you as it isn't your fault. You didn't by him and to be fair you have recently been judging his performaces more objectively than in the past.

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