The solution to our problems (I think)

[AngerManagement]

Im sorry joey but i must disagree slightly there, you are correct in that makelele dosnt make as many tackles as say a parker but becuase he is a more intelligent footballer he can often intercept a pass using anticipation without needing to make a tackle which is better for his team, less chance of injuries and bookings this way, makelele reads the game excellently and his positional play gives his team so much more solidity, he does more than link the play he stops the opposition attacks frequently but i have no idea whether opta have a stat for this, not too sure that these sort of stats can be misleading anyway,

I have no evidence to back up what i am saying its just my personal opinion from watching chelsea, so if you can prove me wrong fair enough.

Maybe he is not required to make as many tackles as Parker also? seeing as Chelsea are a far better team and probally keep better possesion then newcastle and when they are without the ball it is often in non threating areas where there is no need for their ball winner to make the tackle (as well as the better reading of the game/interception idea) Stats only tell you quanitiy, not the importance of each tackle

 

[spurs4europe]

quite an interesting idea. never actually considered a lot of the points you make from such a perspective. it could work, but then i think we at least need ghaly instead of TT on the left so he can switch with lennon, and is also more attack minded and more creative

 

[SpurSince57]

quite an interesting idea. never actually considered a lot of the points you make from such a perspective. it could work, but then i think we at least need ghaly instead of TT on the left so he can switch with lennon, and is also more attack minded and more creative

If there were a possibility that Ghaly could be even a stop-gap solution for our left-sided problems, don't you think Jol would have tried him there already?

 

[Yid-ol]

I think that you maybe reffering to the away game against Cardiff in the FA cup, your right we were particularly narrow that day because Lennon wasn't playing.

If i remember correctly Keane came on and did give him instructions to go wider, it didn't really happen and I believe subsequently Jol took him off and put Lennon on.

yeah thats he one! i couldnt for love nore money remember what game it was

 

[joey55]

quite an interesting idea. never actually considered a lot of the points you make from such a perspective. it could work, but then i think we at least need ghaly instead of TT on the left so he can switch with lennon, and is also more attack minded and more creative

I understand your thinking with Ghaly, but I'd be against the idea at the moment. The reason for this is that I think if we play with Steed in the middle, the best idea for the left is to keep it solid and not be too adventurous. I know Ghaly is a strong tackler and does work hard, but he has an incredible ability to give the ball away. Sometimes I see things in him that make me think he can be a top player. As I said he works hard, is strong in the tackle and he is certainly technically gifted. But, on the other hand, he see's passes that aren't there, or as SS57 put it are in his head only. I think for the remainder of this season we should look to keep things as solid as possible, particuarly down the left where we have been vulnerable, whilst still letting the likes of Steed and Lennon create. Though I'm not totally oppossed to the idea in the future. I just think that Ghaly, like the Hudd, needs to improve his decision making in terms of how to use the ball. This will certainly come in time for the Hudd as he is young and very nearly there. Ghaly needs to get up to speed pretty quickly, as though he has shown potential, he has been in the country for over a year now, and is 24/25.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Joey,

I think you make some interesting points but I think certain aspects of it involve taking one step forwards and two back.

I don't want to get lost again on the Zokora thing but you are scathing in your assesment of a bloke who is definately better footballing wise than Tianio for example and generally influences a game more than Ghaly or Murphy. Particularly at home.

You are also ignoring one of the biggest reasons we are shipping goals without actually conceding that may chances. Even ManU only had 7 shots on target. That is our woeful defence. Robinson & Dawson have been found out completely. Neither are actually top drawer. Dawson is brave and gets noticed diving in and winning headers but he does not read danger until the last second when it's too late or requires desperate action (which often gets applauded).
Add to that the fact that we added a new rb (who loves to bomb forward but does not always defend as stoicly as Salty did and half a season of the lethargic Ekotto and therein lies our biggest problem. An unsettled, part new, part inexperienced defence, also missing the one of the best cb's around in King.

The central midfield definately needs adjusting to fit different occassions as none of them are in my opinion automatic choices, all have strengths and weakenesses. None are complete.

We still need to solve the lm problem. But for the immediate future away from home I refer you to thefolllowing post I made in another thread:

Just once this season I would love Jol to go with a proper 4-5-1 with something like this:

Cerny

Chimbo
Rocha
gardner
Lee

Lennon
Jenas
Hudd
Tianio
Malbranque

Berbatov


I have never believed in 451 ultimately but in our current position we have got to change and we have the personnel to play it properly. Lennon & Malbranque could have somefreedom with jenas & Tianio able to support attacks as and when but also protecting the defence and winning the ball for hudd pulling strings.

For the diehard Dawson fans you could sub him in for one of the cb's.

You could also stick Zokora in for any of the middle three.

With a bench of:

Salty (can play anywhere along back 4)
Ghaly/Murphy/Zokora
Defoe
Keane

You would be covered defensively with Hudd also able to play cb and have plenty of creative options.

 

[SpurSince57]

Just some tackling stats to stir up the debate:

Pascal Chimbonda 64 76.6%
Benoit Assou-Ekotto 63 82.5%
Young-pyo Lee 58 79.3%
Steed Malbranque 51 82.4%
Didier Zokora 51 82.4%


Chimbo has only just overtaken BAE as top tackler, having played 5.5 more games. Lee's played 5 games on the right and 10.5 on the left, so some arithmetical jiggery-pokery is required to try to work out just how much more work our LB has to do, but at a rough guess I'd say 20%-25%, which highlights the comparative lack of cover on the left. BAE's percentage of successful tackles may come as a surprise, too—that's as good as Baines, and better than Evra. His problems lie elsewhere.

What's also interesting, though, is how Malbranque has shot up the listings. For a bloke that some people were claiming never put in a tackle, that's pretty damned impressive. Zokora looks good, too, and his success rate is excellent, too. However, he has spent more time on the pitch than any other midfielder.

We are, by the way, 7th ranked for tackles, and 6th for successful tackles, which may be a surprise. In fact we rate well for everything bar shot conversion and crossing, at both of which we are pants.

 

[chivers!]

The solution? If Berbatov comes off, Mido comes on. I thank you.

(see start and end of the CCSF)

 

[Yid-ol]

The solution? If Berbatov comes off, Mido comes on. I thank you.

(see start and end of the CCSF)

just 1 problem to this....

2 strikers on the bench is a risk, we need cover at the back or midfield more for the 5th man there assuming we have 1 keeper 1 defender 1 midfielder and 1 forward on the bench anyway

and if we only have 1 striker on the bench, and lets say its mido, and defoe needs to come off, there no little striker to replace him, same when keane is on the bench, id berbatov needs to come off that leaves defoe and keane!

i agree with Mido is Berbatovs replacement but only 5 subs on the bench doesnt help us! i would like to see the number up to 6 or 7 on the bench

 

[Davey-O]

I agree with Bus-Conductor.

Problem lays with the defense and the lack of protection it gets from the midfield.

I've said it once and I'll say it again... Dawson and Gardner are below par defenders.

 

[rigg the yid]

I've read on a lot of threads recently that Jol should try a 4-5-1 formation, it seems these people have forgotten the way we performed against Le Arse in the Carling cup first leg. Berby went off and Keane came on and slotted in to midfield. Then we collapsed and ultimately lost a final spot.

We have to stick with what we know and try to field a settled midfield. I would have to agree with joey, but i would replace TT with BAE.
-----------------------Cerny
Chimbonda----Dawson--------Rocha---------------lee
Lennon--------Jenas-------Malbranque-------Assou Ekotto
-----------Berbatov------------Defoe

 

[chivers!]

...if we only have 1 striker on the bench, and lets say its mido, and defoe needs to come off, there no little striker to replace him...

Why would Defoe need to be replaced with a 'little striker'?
Defoe and Keane are both strikers, yes, but play differently.

 

[SpursOldBoy]

I'm not sure, but i believe that most team don't have a holding player at all. Even United don't have one - and they have Carrick! Most just assign one to be more defensive than the other (Joey Barton, Carrick at United, Vieira back in the day).

Spot on, we should defend as a team and attack as a team. The movement off of the ball and support play is not good enough at the moment. There is a combination of reasons for this - unsettled side (because of injuries) and I would guess a weakness in way the players are coached.

I'm not calling for Jol's head here (he needs at least one, if not two years more in charge). My idea would be to replace Hughton and some of the other coaching staff.

My reason for this is based on the way I understand the Scum are setup (this is backed up by a Scum supporting mate of mine) - the day to day coaching there is handled by Pat Rice, Wenger hardly ever touches the training field. Wenger instead determines the style and pattern of play, it is down to Rice and the other coachng staff to ensure their scummy players are ready and able to play the way he wants them to play.

I absolutely hate saying this (I really cannot stand that club) but we need to learn from them - when they break forward 5 or 6 players immediately move forward at speed and seem to know where to go to support the attack.

I would hazard a guess that Jol also relys on Hughton in this way and it is clear from the way we are playing it is not working.

I may be wrong and if somebody knows otherwise tell me, but for me he represents the common factor when you look back at the lack of success over the years. This cannot be a coincidence?

 

[chivers!]

Spot on, we should defend as a team and attack as a team. The movement off of the ball and support play is not good enough at the moment.

My thoughts too. Whether it's down to coaching staff, I don't know, but I agree that play is disjointed - we don't have everyone on the same wavelength. Last season this problem was masked by having Carrick to move the ball and orchestrate the play.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I've read on a lot of threads recently that Jol should try a 4-5-1 formation, it seems these people have forgotten the way we performed against Le Arse in the Carling cup first leg. Berby went off and Keane came on and slotted in to midfield. Then we collapsed and ultimately lost a final spot.

We have to stick with what we know and try to field a settled midfield. I would have to agree with joey, but i would replace TT with BAE.
-----------------------Cerny
Chimbonda----Dawson--------Rocha---------------lee
Lennon--------Jenas-------Malbranque-------Assou Ekotto
-----------Berbatov------------Defoe

The 451 v Arse failed because it included Keane instead of a proper midfielder. Keane runs around flapping like a mother hen but is not a midfielder.

 

[muffwah]

Passing
4 Didier Zokora 681 84.4%
Tackling
5 Didier Zokora 51 82.4%
Fouls Won
1 Didier Zokora 47


Sounds a lot like he is doing his job to me, he is just a holding player in the way Makelele and Sissoko are. He is capable of surging runs with the ball. I have no fking idea why everyone is on his back, if he had been playing with Jenas (who will actually tackle and work hard) instead of Hudd (talented but sometimes a non-entity) recently I don't think our midfield would have got overrun as often.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Spot on, we should defend as a team and attack as a team. The movement off of the ball and support play is not good enough at the moment. There is a combination of reasons for this - unsettled side (because of injuries) and I would guess a weakness in way the players are coached.

I'm not calling for Jol's head here (he needs at least one, if not two years more in charge). My idea would be to replace Hughton and some of the other coaching staff.

My reason for this is based on the way I understand the Scum are setup (this is backed up by a Scum supporting mate of mine) - the day to day coaching there is handled by Pat Rice, Wenger hardly ever touches the training field. Wenger instead determines the style and pattern of play, it is down to Rice and the other coachng staff to ensure their scummy players are ready and able to play the way he wants them to play.

I absolutely hate saying this (I really cannot stand that club) but we need to learn from them - when they break forward 5 or 6 players immediately move forward at speed and seem to know where to go to support the attack.

I would hazard a guess that Jol also relys on Hughton in this way and it is clear from the way we are playing it is not working.

I may be wrong and if somebody knows otherwise tell me, but for me he represents the common factor when you look back at the lack of success over the years. This cannot be a coincidence?

This is spot on.

I too don't want the bloke sacked, but I fear that he is the managerial equivelant of Robinson and Dawson. His tactics have cost us plenty this season. And his coaching must be questioned. Like Dawson and Robinson I fear he is another great bloke who is ultimately short of the ability/intelligence to be top drawer.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Passing
4 Didier Zokora 681 84.4%
Tackling
5 Didier Zokora 51 82.4%
Fouls Won
1 Didier Zokora 47


Sounds a lot like he is doing his job to me, he is just a holding player in the way Makelele and Sissoko are. He is capable of surging runs with the ball. I have no fking idea why everyone is on his back, if he had been playing with Jenas (who will actually tackle and work hard) instead of Hudd (talented but sometimes a non-entity) recently I don't think our midfield would have got overrun as often.

Another good point.

Alot of sense on here today. How odd.

 

[muffwah]

I personally think we should consider playing Ekotto ahead of Lee on the left to solidify that side, then hold with Zokora and attack through Lennon and Malbranque/Jenas. If we don't concede we don't lose. I also think if we are playing long ball so much we ought to play Mido and Berbs together away from home, at least the will win more balls and retain more possession up front.

 

[SpurSince57]

Passing
4 Didier Zokora 681 84.4%
Tackling
5 Didier Zokora 51 82.4%
Fouls Won
1 Didier Zokora 47


Sounds a lot like he is doing his job to me, he is just a holding player in the way Makelele and Sissoko are. He is capable of surging runs with the ball. I have no fking idea why everyone is on his back, if he had been playing with Jenas (who will actually tackle and work hard) instead of Hudd (talented but sometimes a non-entity) recently I don't think our midfield would have got overrun as often.

Don't forget the fouls won suggests he gets caught in possession rather more than he ought to. I'm one of the unconvinced-but-he needs-more time persuasion, but one thing that does seem evident is that he and the Hudd are not an ideal combination if we are under pressure, and that Jol has only played them as a combination because he's had no real option. They both seem to have an inclination to drop back when we're under serious attack, and also appear to have a tendency to get in one another's way. One of his best performances for me was after we switched to 4-5-1 against Chelsea and he was mopping up effectively behind Jenas and Ghaly whilst they took on (and largely took out) Essien and Lumpard.

I don't think many would disagree that was one of our best midfield performances this season, if not the best. Is it a coincidence that it's one of the few occasions Jol's had the luxury of being able to play his available midfielders in positions which best suit their abilities?