Proud Lilywhites

ARMASPUR · Oct 6, 2014

JerryGarcia said:
But how does their flag affect anyone else at all? It's just a flag, you don't really have to look at it.

As i've said I just don't think it has anything to do with football, that's all. Everyone is different, and what doesn't bother you will still bother others, that's the reason why I think everything inside the ground should be about football and football only. Then again Spurs would annoy the f**k out of ya anyway lol

Blackcanary · Oct 6, 2014

Kendall said:
Why should you be proud of something you can't control? I've never gotten that.

I'm no more proud to be straight than I am proud to be English, proud to be white or proud to be male. I'm not proud of anything bestowed upon me by chance/science/circumstance.

But presumably, you are rarely made to feel like you should be ashamed of any of those things. Homophobia is still the elephant in the room in football. The fact that people are getting squeamish over a flag (not meaning you, just in general) shows precisely why we need these types of gestures IMO. The game needs to confront the 'don't ask, don't tell' mentality and some of the abuse that goes on.

talkshowhost86 · Oct 6, 2014

lao said:
There are plenty of openly gay fans, so maybe the problem is with the players not the fans?

I'm sure there is a big problem within the players, but I'd be surprised if fear of fan abuse wasn't a big reason for some players to come out.

ARMASPUR · Oct 6, 2014

talkshowhost86 said:
It's obviously not the only solution, but one of the issues is that I suspect there's still a general culture of fear around being gay at a football match, so if one group stands up against that then I think that's a positive step generally.

I totally agree that the group is a positive step, and if it makes those individuals feel safe at the games that's great. I'm just not so keen on the flag, then again I'm from Northern Ireland and we love a good riot over flags

talkshowhost86 · Oct 6, 2014

Kendall said:
Why should you be proud of something you can't control? I've never gotten that.

I'm no more proud to be straight than I am proud to be English, proud to be white or proud to be male. I'm not proud of anything bestowed upon me by chance/science/circumstance.

Blackcanary has already said it, but the fundamental difference is that you and I have never been persecuted (or whatever a less biblical way of saying persecuted) because of being white or English or straight.

As I said the ideal scenario is where people wouldn't need to feel proud of something they can't control other than to be proud of themselves generally. But if a group is repeatedly beaten down for something they can't control, I think it's fair enough if they want to then state that their proud of who and how they are.

Geyzer Soze · Oct 6, 2014

talkshowhost86 said:
I'm sure there is a big problem within the players, but I'd be surprised if fear of fan abuse wasn't a big reason for some players to come out.

I doubt it personally. Who goes around abusing gay people anymore in the UK?

talkshowhost86 · Oct 6, 2014

ARMASPUR said:
I totally agree that the group is a positive step, and if it makes those individuals feel safe at the games that's great. I'm just not so keen on the flag, then again I'm from Northern Ireland and we love a good riot over flags

But do you have an equal problem with the fans who have flags such as 'Cyprus Spurs' or 'Brentwood Spurs' or similar? Those don't seem to cause as much furore (well...not always anyway).

talkshowhost86 · Oct 6, 2014

lao said:
I doubt it personally. Who goes around abusing gay people anymore in the UK?

Obviously enough people that the LGBT community still feel the need to call attention to it.

JerryGarcia · Oct 6, 2014

If West Ham rocked up and started directing abuse at the Proud Lilywhites and their flag, would the rest of our ground chant "Gay Army" or would they just get booed?

nicdic · Oct 6, 2014

Would the club have a straight supporters club? If not then, they probably shouldn't have this one. It has all along seemed a bit of a PR stunt, being able to say we're the first club with a supporters club of this kind.

talkshowhost86 · Oct 6, 2014

JerryGarcia said:
If West Ham rocked up and started directing abuse at the Proud Lilywhites and their flag, would the rest of our ground chant "Gay Army" or would they just get booed?

That would be an incredible moment to be a human

Kendall · Oct 6, 2014

talkshowhost86 said:
Blackcanary has already said it, but the fundamental difference is that you and I have never been persecuted (or whatever a less biblical way of saying persecuted) because of being white or English or straight.

As I said the ideal scenario is where people wouldn't need to feel proud of something they can't control other than to be proud of themselves generally. But if a group is repeatedly beaten down for something they can't control, I think it's fair enough if they want to then state that their proud of who and how they are.

Ever been to Aus?

Crucified mate.

talkshowhost86 · Oct 6, 2014

nicdic said:
Would the club have a straight supporters club? If not then, they probably shouldn't have this one. It has all along seemed a bit of a PR stunt, being able to say we're the first club with a supporters club of this kind.

Again in an ideal world you might be right, but it isn't ideal, LGBT people are still abused because of their sexuality, and therefore it is right that the club does something to at least try and help with the issue.

I'm not really sure how anyone can see any negative of this at all.

talkshowhost86 · Oct 6, 2014

Kendall said:
Ever been to Aus?

Crucified mate.

I'm pretty sure that's just you.

And if you want to fly a flag saying 'I'm Kendall and I'm proud' then I'll fully support you.

ARMASPUR · Oct 6, 2014

talkshowhost86 said:
But do you have an equal problem with the fans who have flags such as 'Cyprus Spurs' or 'Brentwood Spurs' or similar? Those don't seem to cause as much furore (well...not always anyway).

No I don't have a similar problem with that at all, I believe that is just showing Spurs support from certain areas of the country / world, but doesn't actually take into consideration certain sections of race or sexual orientation etc If it was a 'Brentwood straight Spurs' flag, then, yes, I would have a similar problem with it.

tiger666 · Oct 6, 2014

nicdic said:
Would the club have a straight supporters club? If not then, they probably shouldn't have this one. It has all along seemed a bit of a PR stunt, being able to say we're the first club with a supporters club of this kind.

We are in no way the first to have a lgbt group. Pretty sure Arsenal have one for a start.

talkshowhost86 · Oct 6, 2014

ARMASPUR said:
No I don't have a similar problem with that at all, I believe that is just showing Spurs support from certain areas of the country / world, but doesn't actually take into consideration certain sections of race or sexual orientation etc If it was a 'Brentwood straight Spurs' flag, then, yes, I would have a similar problem with it.

I'm just not sure what the difference is between saying 'I'm from Brentwood and I'm a Spurs fan' and saying 'I'm gay and I'm a Spurs fan', other than the fact that the second person is more likely to have been abused for being gay than the first person is for being from Brentwood.

Which when you consider what Brentwood is like is really rather silly.

Blackcanary · Oct 6, 2014

lao said:
I doubt it personally. Who goes around abusing gay people anymore in the UK?

I bet they'd take flack from opposing fans. FFS, look how badly some supporters treat our OWN players.

The thing about football is that a lot of the insults follow a very lazy mindset. They revolve around calling players by feminine terms. Anything outside normal, heroic, manly qualities = bad. And I wonder if this exacerbated actually at matches because young fans who may be more liberal (or more politically correct!) are priced out and it's more full of middle-aged, more conservative men. That's just a generalisation, of course.

ARMASPUR · Oct 6, 2014

Fair enough, I see a big difference in it, but I don't expect everyone to share my opinion. A better flag to have in the stadium would read, 'football for all' or something to those effects, therefore not singling out any certain part of the community.

in reply to @talkshowhost86

Geyzer Soze · Oct 6, 2014

Blackcanary said:
I bet they'd take flack from opposing fans. FFS, look how badly some supporters treat our OWN players.

The thing about football is that a lot of the insults follow a very lazy mindset. They revolve around calling players by feminine terms. Anything outside normal, heroic, manly qualities = bad. And I wonder if this exacerbated actually at matches because young fans who may be more liberal (or more politically correct!) are priced out and it's more full of middle-aged, more conservative men. That's just a generalisation, of course.

Do you think that the bigger problem might be just that attitude that you describe, but in the dressing room?

Like i said earlier, many gay supporters but no gay players (openly).

We know what footballers are. Spoilt, often ill educated, testosterone hyped twats for the most part. I think that in rooting out homophobia from the game that dressing room cuture needs to be looked at (where it concerns the widely mooted fact that there are no openly gay players). I really am not sure that the football watching public need take much flak for that, because i really don't think that it would make much difference to any player who came out.

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