SC's Tactical Autopsy thread

Spurs_Bear said:

You're right. It is fascinating I watched the goals of the season from 09/10 a couple of weeks ago, I was bored on site and YouTube isn't banned on the wifi, remembering games that I'd forgotten like putting 5 past Hull at their place, 5 at home to Burnley, 9 at home to Wigan, Liverpool and City at home etc. but it then of course dawned on me that it was just lottery bollocks and waiting for Bale to wang one in the top corner in the last minute at home to Southampton was all round better football and entertainment...

How the eyes see differently and all that.

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We were great that season. I think we could have done a little better if we had Lennon and Modric fit for the whole year. Modric was only into his second season and looked amazing for the first few games then broke his leg against Brum. Similarly Lennon was excellent up to his injury around the turn of the year and never looked the same player that season. Krancjar did excellently when he came in and got some important goals but a midfield of Lennon, Palacios, Huddlestone, Modric all on fine form would have been something.

Spurs_Bear said:

You're right. It is fascinating I watched the goals of the season from 09/10 a couple of weeks ago, I was bored on site and YouTube isn't banned on the wifi, remembering games that I'd forgotten like putting 5 past Hull at their place, 5 at home to Burnley, 9 at home to Wigan, Liverpool and City at home etc. but it then of course dawned on me that it was just lottery bollocks and waiting for Bale to wang one in the top corner in the last minute at home to Southampton was all round better football and entertainment...

How the eyes see differently and all that.

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All the talk of needing to give this new regime time, but quite a few seem to exert pressure with their expectations too early and too quickly IMO.

The bottom line is we're doing ok at the moment but I won't be judging fully until the end of next season at the earliest.

Mr Pink said:

All the talk of needing to give this new regime time, but quite a few seem to exert pressure with their expectations too early and too quickly IMO.

The bottom line is we're doing ok at the moment but I won't be judging fully until the end of next season at the earliest.

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And I think that is fair. BC gave AVB 6 months before he started sucking him off, he probably owes MoPo another couple of weeks.

I know it's hardly a full set of data relating to all our play, but is an interesting stat given how some bemoan our lack of forward passing and that we bemoan knocking the ball around aimlessly with no intent to get forward...

0-Tibsy-0 said:

I know it's hardly a full set of data relating to all our play, but is an interesting stat given how some bemoan our lack of forward passing and that we bemoan knocking the ball around aimlessly with no intent to get forward...

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Interesting find but how does that work, are they pure totals (per game) or percentages of total passes (which would be more relevant no ?)

Bus-Conductor said:

Interesting find but how does that work, are they pure totals (per game) or percentages of total passes (which would be more relevant no ?)

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Think the description gives it away - '% Passes Backwards'

Bus-Conductor said:

Interesting find but how does that work, are they pure totals (per game) or percentages of total passes (which would be more relevant no ?)

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I'd suspect it's divided into halves. Most of our sideways passing are above the horizontal plane, so wouldn't be factored in, and it's true we don't really pass backwards entirely often. Just very, very sideways.

0-Tibsy-0 said:

I know it's hardly a full set of data relating to all our play, but is an interesting stat given how some bemoan our lack of forward passing and that we bemoan knocking the ball around aimlessly with no intent to get forward...

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Where did those stats come from OTO ?

Spursidol said:

Think the description gives it away - '% Passes Backwards'

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Nobody likes a wiseacre.

Spursidol said:

Think the description gives it away - '% Passes Backwards'

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still laughing

Don't agree too much with the concern about breaking down the teams who defend and are bus-parkers and comparing this style to AVB's very rigid methodical mostly sideways play is unfair.

I think we certainly could do with scoring more goals but i think that will come with two things:
1) Better players/squad who suit Potch's system
2) Time, the longer he works with them the better he's only had half a season so far and for me the are marked signs of improvement.

Also agree that Potch has make me like this team again which i think is a huge credit to him and his staff as i genuinely had started to fall out of love with the club and never had felt so dissconnected and uninterested in the club and team and players but even though we're not setting the world alight i feel like we're starting to get our old spurs back.

Even the last few weeks epitomise us, we hammer Chelsea at home then lost to Palace, make progress in 1st leg of league cup then lost at home in last minute of FA Cup(Gutted) so Spurs. If we can get to league cup final i'd say thats about right, have a decent run in UEFA if poss and come 6thish.

Great 1st season that would be in my opinion.

He's managed the squad well or starting to apart from Ade as captain and Kaboul at first but i think he's realised his mistakes and also is doing the Ade thing more for the good of the squad until we can sell him.

There are things to be pleased with in terms of progress, we hammered chelsea at home and look more solid vs the big teams, we grind out results when we wouldn't have used to but then you may moan we dont score enough and play is too predictable and pedestrian. You could also credit him for improving and giving chances to likes of Kane, Rose, Bentaleb, Mason, Rose, Eriksen(improving) etc but then moan that we lost to Leicester at home in Fa Cup.

All in all im pleased, i bloody hope we get through tomorrow night into the final otherwise if we go out of that, lose to l-pool and arsenal and Florentina in Feb our season is over and looks pretty shit, lets hope that doesn't happen and that come summer we've been to wembley came 5/6th and potch gets rid of the players with poor attitude and ability brings in a few much needed players of real quality and we kick on from there.

COYS.

Think this is the underlying data. Not sure it actually tells us anything really.

Can anyone tell me how I can take a screen shot of a page in 442 StatsZone (App on my phone) and post it on here ? @ShelfSide18 told me how to do it once but I have forgotten. (where the hell is SS18 by the way ?)

Bus-Conductor said:

Can anyone tell me how I can take a screen shot of a page in 442 StatsZone (App on my phone) and post it on here ? @ShelfSide18 told me how to do it once but I have forgotten. (where the hell is SS18 by the way ?)

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iPhone: Press home button and power button together. Android: hold power and volume down at the same time for a second typically.

Then upload a file and grab it from your gallery

many of arsenal's goals today came from countering on villa, we need to learn to do the same at home to sides who sit back.

Blake Griffin said:

many of arsenal's goals today came from countering on villa, we need to learn to do the same at home to sides who sit back.

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BC would combust if we attempted to do that.

Blake Griffin said:

many of arsenal's goals today came from countering on villa, we need to learn to do the same at home to sides who sit back.

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We had the chance to counter on WBA yesterday numerous times and continually pissed it away with carelessness. We counter attack plenty in games, we just aren't very good at it.

Evening all. As often happens, some interesting points were raised this week in the ratings thread. I thought I'd pick them off and put them here as a little amuse bouche that may get the tactical discussion juices flowing:

Firstly, in response to @TheHoddleWaddle I posted a reference to an extract of an interview in this sunday's Sunday Times with Jose Mourinho.

Bus-Conductor said:

I read an interesting article in the Sunday Times. It was an extract of Alistair Campbell's interview with Jose Mourinho for his new book about winners. If I still had my subscription I'd post it in the Tactical Autopsy thread as a discussion piece (if any has that would be good - cheers).

When asked about tactics, Mourinho breaks it down into two factions; tactics and strategy. Tactics are the routine things he drills into players all the time on a day to day basis, how they behave individually and collectively in X,Y,X situations all over the pitch in all positions by all players. Strategy is the thing he applies independently to every game depending on the opposition. These are just names and you could easily reverse them and they can mean the same things, but the point is some managers have an over arching more singular tactical or strategic approach, some tend to have a more pragmatic dual approach.

Mourinho is IMO the best of the "dual faction" managers. Guardiola IMO the best at the "single faction". Mourinho the ultimate pragmatist. Guardiola the ultimate purist. And I love both. And of course there are a hundred shades in between the two and some coach's blur the lines of the two.

Pochettino, as a disciple of Bielsa (who has also been quoted by Guardiola as an inspiration) is very much in the single faction category. It's all about what his team does. Less consideration seems to be given to what the opposition do. I'm sure that's an exaggeration and he does consider and speak about what the opposition do to our players, but the approach rarely seems to change from the outset of games - or often during games. So we started the same against Arsenal home (team, formation, approach) as we did against Liverpool away for example.

When it works well the the more singular approach can be wonderful (Arsenal at home) but when it doesn't, it can be a mess (today).

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Then later on in a response to a post I made saying that as much as I like Capoue and think he could have offered us something, I think Mason needs to play now until the end @Bobbins posted this:

Bobbins said:

I'd have Capoue back in the squad, I am presuming he's only out based on being a bit of a knob behind the scenes, not his ability.

I like Mason, a lot, and there's nothing better for learning the game/league/team than playing games, but I don't think he's suited for the BtB role in a CM 2 4-2-3-1.

Once again, IMO, it's the system that's the problem.

This team is and has been for a long time crying out for a 4-3-3.

Lamela played as the wide right forward in Roma's 4-3-3. Chaldi as the wide left forward in Twente's 4-3-3. Eriksen as either the wide left or furthest forward AM in Ajax's variation of it. Kane excels in the proper-number-9 role.

I really am beginning to resent this 4-2-3-1 stuff. I'd much rather see something like:

GK

Back Four

---------- Bentaleb ----------
--- Mason --- Eriksen ---
Lamela ------------ Chadli
------------- Kane -----------

Or an inversion of:

Bentaleb ----- Stambouli/Capoue
---------- Mason/Eriksen ---------
Lamela ------------------ Chadli/Eriksen
---------------- Kane --------------

At the moment the whole "4-2-3-1 is more like 4-5-1 without the ball" doesn't seem to be happening. There's often decent bits of pressing, but it's not very coherent, and far too often the 2 are getting isolated and are totally unable to protect the back four - which I'm convinced is why we're consistently conceding goals despite generally decent individual performances.

Ah who am I kidding. I've been wanting this for an age and it's never going to happen.

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Which I pretty much agree with and have been saying the same for as long as I can remember (including during AVB and Redknapp's time, even though personnel were different, for similar reasons I felt it would get the best of them).

I would love to see a front 6:

Mason Capoue Bentaleb

Lamela Kane Eriksen


What I don't understand, and what links the two pieces, is why does Pochettino's philosophy or system not allow for a change in shape and application ? I can understand him sticking to his basic philosophy of energetic press, high tempo, high line but why does he never adapt the shape or vary the strategy to counter the differing type of tactical opposition he meets.

We can still apply his high tempo, high press methods within the framework of a 433 (or other) so why is he so vehemently routed to the 4231. His mentor Bielsa was far more tactically versatile over the course of his coaching career, using some weird and wonderful formations including 3313, 4231, 343, 433 and was an innovative early exponent of converting CM's (or FB's) as CB's so his teams could play football in every area of the pitch (Later to be copied by Guardiola for example).

Anyone have any ideas ?

Bus-Conductor said:

Evening all. As often happens, some interesting points were raised this week in the ratings thread. I thought I'd pick them off and put them here as a little amuse bouche that may get the tactical discussion juices flowing:

Firstly, in response to @TheHoddleWaddle I posted a reference to an extract of an interview in this sunday's Sunday Times with Jose Mourinho.




Then later on in a response to a post I made saying that as much as I like Capoue and think he could have offered us something, I think Mason needs to play now until the end @Bobbins posted this:





Which I pretty much agree with and have been saying the same for as long as I can remember (including during AVB and Redknapp's time, even though personnel were different, for similar reasons I felt it would get the best of them).

I would love to see a front 6:

Mason Capoue Bentaleb

Lamela Kane Eriksen


What I don't understand, and what links the two pieces, is why does Pochettino's philosophy or system not allow for a change in shape and application ? I can understand him sticking to his basic philosophy of energetic press, high tempo, high line but why does he never adapt the shape or vary the strategy to counter the differing type of tactical opposition he meets.

We can still apply his high tempo, high press methods within the framework of a 433 (or other) so why is he so vehemently routed to the 4231. His mentor Bielsa was far more tactically versatile over the course of his coaching career, using some weird and wonderful formations including 3313, 4231, 343, 433 and was an innovative early exponent of converting CM's (or FB's) as CB's so his teams could play football in every area of the pitch (Later to be copied by Guardiola for example).

Anyone have any ideas ?

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Maybe he does think about changing it up, but doesn't trust Capoue.