After yesterdays game...is Morgan Schneiderlin someone we need

DaSpurs · Apr 26, 2015

Hoddle&Waddle said:
No, you press in 2's and 3's, it's when we over commit too many at the wrong times that leaves us open to the counter. There isnt one 'trigger man', the trigger man is the first guy that identifies an opportunity to press which triggers 2 maybe 3 players in that zone to press with him. Obviously if we then win possesion you want players breaking quickly to join up with that group, which I think is the problem as we are lacking pace in certain area's, in particular the wings.

You press in isolated pockets near the ball in 2's and 3's, but the idea is nonetheless a "full press" with players stepping to in behind those pockets. You are right though, we certainly do over-commit and that is very much a problem. However, I think a lot of that is due to lacking pace, and work ethic for some, and so we're scrambling to try to close down those pockets because we simply almost never close them down sufficiently.

The "trigger man" is not a reference to a specific person, but rather the point is that the press is triggered higher up the pitch. If this is not done, the whole system can collapse as the high line is privy to being played in behind. It's analogous to an umbrella. If you don't get the canopy up and high quickly enough, you get rained on. Without the shield higher up the pitch at least creating pressure, the opposition is afforded more time, more structure, and more angles to flaunt getting in behind that high line which is then consequently forced to chase down plays.

I also agree that the lack of pace to spring away from changes in possession in our favor is very much a problem and that also exposes us. Completely agree with that.

Blake Griffin · Apr 26, 2015

Everlasting Seconds said:
You live in a world in which we don't lose our best players and in which our competition doesn't strengthen. I don't live in that world. To a certain degree, a possible future can't make up for an underwhelming now. The only thing we know we have certainty in is right know, and right now, we are falling further behind those in front of us, and getting closer to those behind us.

i live in no such world, although i don't think it's right to live by the presumption that spending money = strengthening. premier league teams are as rich as they've ever been off the field and about as poor as they ever have been on it, i'd've thought the summer of 2013 would've opened fans' eyes to this. if we do lose our best players then so be it, we've replaced bigger and better players than jan vertonghen and christian eriksen before. i never said i wouldn't spend, but if i did then it would only be on young players. this is where the club is at, if a young player disappoints then you don't lose everything on them, lamela for example would still fetch a reasonable amount of money whereas with someone like soldado we'll struggle to give him away. on the pitch i prefer young players because they're more malleable and you can develop a long term ethos within the club, older players you have to keep replacing and hope they pick it up quickly. that's fine if you're a chelsea who can pick, choose and discard without a care in the world but we can't.

i feel a little sorry for levy because i believe ideally he'd like to do things the way i'm suggesting but he also knows the precious fans won't have any of it because the part of the season they look forward to the most is the summer/winter transfer window.

Everlasting Seconds · Apr 26, 2015

Blake Griffin said:
i live in no such world, although i don't think it's right to live by the presumption that spending money = strengthening. premier league teams are as rich as they've ever been off the field and about as poor as they ever have been on it, i'd've thought the summer of 2013 would've opened fans' eyes to this. if we do lose our best players then so be it, we've replaced bigger and better players than jan vertonghen and christian eriksen before. i never said i wouldn't spend, but if i did then it would only be on young players. this is where the club is at, if a young player disappoints then you don't lose everything on them, lamela for example would still fetch a reasonable amount of money whereas with someone like soldado we'll struggle to give him away. on the pitch i prefer young players because they're more malleable and you can develop a long term ethos within the club, older players you have to keep replacing and hope they pick it up quickly. that's fine if you're a chelsea who can pick, choose and discard without a care in the world but we can't.

i feel a little sorry for levy because i believe ideally he'd like to do things the way i'm suggesting but he also knows the precious fans won't have any of it because the part of the season they look forward to the most is the summer/winter transfer window.

We have to sign players too, and that's what I believe Levy really wants, combine in house academy and savvy transfer dealings. There is no way we can sit back and say "we've got the youngest squad now, and given their future our job is done". We know shit about the future, youth isn't a guarantee for anything and there is no trophy for having the youngest team. Right now, I'd say our future looks moderately interesting at best.

Blake Griffin · Apr 26, 2015

Everlasting Seconds said:
We have to sign players too, and that's what I believe Levy really wants, combine in house academy and savvy transfer dealings. There is no way we can sit back and say "we've got the youngest squad now, and given their future our job is done". We know shit about the future, youth isn't a guarantee for anything and there is no trophy for having the youngest team. Right now, I'd say our future looks moderately interesting at best.

i would sign players too but of the stones/ward-prowse/berahino ilk. i don't see the value in spurs signing established players and i don't really understand the suggestion that by building a squad for the long term we'll be compromising our immediate future. what would we be sacrificing exactly? an unsustainable and miniscule shot at finishing top four? with our budget i don't think spurs can ever achieve what the fans want by doing it that way.

DaSpurs · Apr 26, 2015

Blake Griffin said:
i would sign players too but of the stones/ward-prowse/berahino ilk. i don't see the value in spurs signing established players and i don't really understand the suggestion that by building a squad for the long term we'll be compromising our immediate future. what would we be sacrificing exactly? an unsustainable and miniscule shot at finishing top four? with our budget i don't think spurs can ever achieve what the fans want by doing it that way.

There is quite a bit of middle ground though in between what you're advocating and what you're pointing out as opposed to what you're saying. I agree with your point entirely that it's not as if we're exactly moving up as is, and furthermore that with our own budget we have to be more clever. However, that doesn't necessarily mean the purchases have to be entirely youth. We can still look to make purchases of promising English youth (would love to see us sign Ings, Berahino, Redmond, Gray, Ward-Prowse, Bishop, etc) while also being shrewder and more concerted in the older and more experienced players we do buy (as opposed to summer 2013), and I suspect this is the direction the new transfer committee/scouting team is taking.

So I agree with you to an extent, summer 2013 showed us exactly that trying to compete in the arms race of quality with the big boys is never going to work out in our favor. But conversely, buying exclusively youth is on a far extreme from that and an "equal and opposite reaction," rather than an appropriation towards balance.

225 · Apr 26, 2015

So..... do we need Schneiderlin?

Breezer · Apr 26, 2015

JJetset said:
Yes we should sign him if it was up to 15m but as they want 10M more than that, i would say i doubt it will happen.
I thought he played well yesterday.

£15m + one of our players! (Townsend or anyone else we could shift over there)

225 · Apr 26, 2015

I'm surprised no one is picking up on the fact that he was a League One player four years ago, No one was after him then.

There's probably a massive list of players who can do just as good a job for much less, but there's too much snobbery around players who people haven't heard of. Stambouli, for example.

Blackcanary · Apr 26, 2015

225 said:
I'm surprised no one is picking up on the fact that he was a League One player four years ago, No one was after him then.

There's probably a massive list of players who can do just as good a job for much less, but there's too much snobbery around players who people haven't heard of. Stambouli, for example.

I think we might see a lot of that this summer, because I imagine the current remit - based on the Soton scouting - is to shop clever and shop creative. I can forsee a lot of "who?!" and "I won the Turkish league with him on FIFA!" this transfer window! :LOL:

225 · Apr 26, 2015

Blackcanary said:
I think we might see a lot of that this summer, because I imagine the current remit - based on the Soton scouting - is to shop clever and shop creative. I can forsee a lot of "who?!" and "I won the Turkish league with him on FIFA!" this transfer window!

There's an unfortunately large proportion of the fan base who would only be happy if we spent uber-millions we can't afford on players with fancy names that are good on football manager.

Strangely enough, it's probably the same lot that slag off the last lot of multi-million pound players with fancy names that were good on football manager....

beats1 · Apr 27, 2015

mill said:
We need a Wanyama more than a Schneiderlin imo

Ironically under Pochettino, Wanyama played more of a box to box role and Schneiderlin was a DM

Dharmabum · Apr 27, 2015

MattPhilpott said:
For me, the man we need is Geoffry Kongdogbia from Monaco. The man is an animal at 6ft2 and I've been very impressed with him for his age at only 22 YO. Hope Hugo could maybe talk him over. Realistically I can't see him costing more than £10-£12m think we could use Capoue as part-exchange, think he would be open to a move back to France and would fill the gap left by Kongdogbia adequately...

Thoughts? Just my view of a realistic midfield target instead of MS

He could be an excellent choice. Spurs, according to ITK, were after him summer 2013 but couldn't beat off Monaco's cash ("naturally"). After a rather disappointing 1st season at Monaco he's now starting to play well, so I think his price woul be uber £15M, and I doubt he'll want to cut his salary (Monaco were offering silly wages back then).

Dharmabum · Apr 27, 2015

I think the train has gone on MS due to Spurs dragging their feet last summer; I can't see Levy spending £25M on MS honestly.
Thing is do, people believe that MS is like the "magic wand" that will solve all Spurs defensive problems once and for all (well at least until he'll retire or play so well that Spurs' "partner", Real M., turns his head)?
I remember the following Spurs midfielders getting in for a lots of stick from fans:
Carrick - too slow, not tough enough, not scoring enough goals etc
Zokora - can't pass, can't shoot, is only an athlete who happens to kick a ball etc
Jenas - bambi like, drifts away/disappears
Thud - lumbersome, slow, no offensive threat
Parker - head-down, runs around in circles, lack ball skills
Modric - doesn't score enough, not fast enough, not enough presence/threat in the penalty box
Sandro - not good on the ball
Eriksen - doesn't defend enough, disappears, etc

As for managers/head-coaches: Martinez and Rodgers were declared "genuises" after last season (and Spurs fans were upset that Levy hadn't hired either of them); but now people are questioning their abilities to take their respective clubs "further". Now the flavour is Roland Koeman.
Give Poch time to build up his team - by getting in more of "his" players while getting rid of a few of the fringe players (I can imagine having Ade, Kaboul and Capuoe around haven't been that good for team spirit) all the while getting the players to perfect their practical understanding of Poch's system/tactis but also get an personal understanding between each others as individual players.
DM, together with GK and CB, is the most difficult position, which is why it takes a "long" time for most players to "learn" how to handle that spot. Bentaleb is still only 20, so give him time. Same goes for Mason - it's only his first season in Spurs' 1st team, and it takes time to build up an understanding with new team-mates, new league level. Synergy is created by giving players time to get to know systems, tactis and each others.
So many Spurs fans want Poch to play academy players yet few are ready to give them time to develop. Already, after just 1 season, Mason "isn't good enough"...next...

Everlasting Seconds · Apr 27, 2015

Blake Griffin said:
i would sign players too but of the stones/ward-prowse/berahino ilk. i don't see the value in spurs signing established players and i don't really understand the suggestion that by building a squad for the long term we'll be compromising our immediate future. what would we be sacrificing exactly? an unsustainable and miniscule shot at finishing top four? with our budget i don't think spurs can ever achieve what the fans want by doing it that way.

It's very risky to take a too narrow approach to our future, and it is short sighted to declare our future for sorted simply because the average age of a starting line up is low.

guy · Apr 27, 2015

Sell Carroll, Capoue and Dembele/Paulinho and invest it all in Schneiderlin

Squad numbers reduced, player the manager wants, wage bill reduced, no (negative) affect to the matchday squads.

simples

Japhet · Apr 27, 2015

Dharmabum said:
I think the train has gone on MS due to Spurs dragging their feet last summer; I can't see Levy spending £25M on MS honestly.
Thing is do, people believe that MS is like the "magic wand" that will solve all Spurs defensive problems once and for all (well at least until he'll retire or play so well that Spurs' "partner", Real M., turns his head)?
I remember the following Spurs midfielders getting in for a lots of stick from fans:
Carrick - too slow, not tough enough, not scoring enough goals etc
Zokora - can't pass, can't shoot, is only an athlete who happens to kick a ball etc
Jenas - bambi like, drifts away/disappears
Thud - lumbersome, slow, no offensive threat
Parker - head-down, runs around in circles, littel ball skills
Modric - doesn't score enough, not fast enough, not enough presence/threat in the penalty box
Sandro - not good on the ball
Eriksen - doesn't defend enough, disappears, etc

As for managers/head-coaches: Martinez and Rodgers were declared "genuises" after last season (and Spurs fans were upset that Levy hadn't hired either of them); but now people are questioning their abilities to take their respective clubs "further". Now the flavour is Roland Koeman.
Give Poch time to build up his team - by getting in more of "his" players while getting rid of a few of the fringe players (I can imagine having Ade, Kaboul and Capuoe around haven't been that good for team spirit) all the while getting the players to perfect their practical understanding of Poch's system/tactis but also get an personal understanding between each others as individual players.

The problem isn't individual players being 'not good enough' or 'lacking experience'. In the case of Mason and Bentaleb it's an inexperienced pairing at the very heart of the team. They are also trying to cope with a style of play that we don't have the personnel for. The lack of any cohesive or effective press up front leaves these 2 and our fullbacks exposed too often. Neither of them has the pace nor the positional sense to compensate and so we frequently get done over. Bentaleb seems to shout a lot, but that doesn't make him a leader. Mason tackles his heart out but often fails to snuff out danger. IMO they both need an experienced partner who can keep them on track and direct them effectively. They will carry on playing the same way and making the same mistakes if we don't address the situation.
DM, together with GK and CB, is the most difficult position, which is why it takes a "long" time for most players to "learn" how to handle that spot. Bentaleb is still only 20, so give him time. Same goes for Mason - it's only his first season in Spurs' 1st team, and it takes time to build up an understanding with new team-mates, new league level. Synergy is created by giving players time to get to know systems, tactis and each others.
So many Spurs fans want Poch to play academy players yet few are ready to give them time to develop. Already, after just 1 season, Mason "isn't good enough"...next...

cockerel downunder · Apr 27, 2015

And what of stambouli? Wasn't he supposed to be the player poch would turn into the next sneiderlin? Do people think he has a future at all given he can't seem to get a game now let alone after the summer..,?

Stoof · Apr 27, 2015

sunnydelight786 said:
So much for our supposed scouting team and Mitchell if the best they can come up with is MS for that price!!!!

Not to pick on you, sunnyd, but this sort of thing annoys me.

What do people expect from the scouting team? To un-earth some mysteriously unknown player that's going to come in for £7 million and then become a £40 million player overnight (without any bed-in time?)

Is there going to be a player that no other clubs know about (at our supposed level) that is going to be an absolute revelation?

Not for me.

cockerel downunder · Apr 27, 2015

guy said:
Sell Carroll, Capoue and Dembele/Paulinho and invest it all in Schneiderlin

Squad numbers reduced, player the manager wants, wage bill reduced, no (negative) affect to the matchday squads.

simples

Id agree with this although maybe keep carrol as 5th choice and sell both of dembele & Pauli

cockerel downunder · Apr 27, 2015

Stoof said:
Not to pick on you, sunnyd, but this sort of thing annoys me.

What do people expect from the scouting team? To un-earth some mysteriously unknown player that's going to come in for £7 million and then become a £40 million player overnight (without any bed-in time?)

Is there going to be a player that no other clubs know about (at our supposed level) that is going to be an absolute revelation?

Not for me.

Indeed. I think bits all about risk. If you have a solid squad already you might have room for a couple of cheap hidden gems with potential. If however you still need a solid squad you might consider paying more to minimise risk by getting an already established player with experience in the prem. given our squad is full of youthful potential I'd be happy with a couple of more experienced signings myself

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