England fans involved in clashes in Marseille

Mustard said:

So you are saying the Muslims in Marseille are pro ISIS?

I think you need to have a word with yourself mate.

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Don't be ridiculous.

I'm saying that singing songs about Isis in the faces of Muslims could be construed as implying they're Isis because they're Muslims.

As you well know.

The Dutch sing a song from the war at the Germans whenever they meet . It goes along the lines of " can we have our bikes back", based on the apparent theft of Dutch bikes by fleeing German troops.

It's daft and in no way aggressive.

English fans sing about Germans in an entirely different manner, self satisfied, aggressive and designed to wind them up.

English fans chanting backward chants against ISIS/IRA/Nazi's is a bit archaic, however it's not an acceptable reason for violence.

rich75 said:

Don't be ridiculous.

I'm saying that singing songs about Isis in the faces of Muslims could be construed as implying they're Isis because they're Muslims.

As you well know.

The Dutch sing a song from the war at the Germans whenever they meet . It goes along the lines of " can we have our bikes back", based on the apparent theft of Dutch bikes by fleeing German troops.

It's daft and in no way aggressive.

English fans sing about Germans in an entirely different manner, self satisfied, aggressive and designed to wind them up.

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So you have evidence that English fans were singing songs against ISIS 'in the faces of muslims'

Ffs mate. You're talking out your arse. You are bending so far over your joining at the middle.

I actually blame the French the most. What has happened to this proud prosperous country? Then the Russian black shirts, then the little Marseille twats.

I tell you what. If I wasn't Brexit before I am now. How has France become like this?

hugrr said:

English fans chanting backward chants against ISIS/IRA/Nazi's is a bit archaic, however it's not an acceptable reason for violence.

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Nor a reason for people not to be treated like human beings when th you're the victims.

I am really outraged. The last EUROS were in Poland and Ukraine. Who would have thought then that it would be safer there than bloody France.

And the excuse that France is terrified of another ISIS attack doesn't wash. The day before we got the Olympics we had 7/7 that worked just fine.

Inept, heavy handed and stupid French.

If they couldn't host it safely then they should have passed it to us or Germany.

nuttynoah said:

seems not
https://www.rt.com/sport/346249-russia-fans-england-football/

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"The head of the Russian football fans’ union told TASS that no mass clashes between the Russian and English fans in the stands had taken place.

“In fact, there was no clash,” said Aleksandr Shprigin. “The entire English sector… just got up and ran away. There were no scuffles, police were standing there. Everything is ok. The police are working well."

These people are totally fucking bonkers.

The problem is definitely a few English idiots singing "Fuck the IRA/ISIS" though...

Russian football hooligans – or Ultras – carry a fearsome reputation and have threatened to launch vicious assaults on England fans.

In the run up to Euro 16 thugs from rival clubs such as Moscow’s Spartak and CSKA threatened to join forces in France against supporters from other countries.

Russian Ultras have already turned many of their domestic games into a battleground. The gangs are frequently dominated by extreme-right wing militants, openly waving flags displaying neo-Nazi symbols.

Spartak followers, along with hooligans from other Russian clubs, have attacked police and thrown flares and smoke bombs onto the pitch before the matches.

There are fears they will deliberately target England black and Asian supporters and direct racist chants at the team.

In 2013 UEFA punished CSKA Moscow with a partial stadium ban on supporters after monkey chants were aimed at Yaya Toure during a Champions League game against Manchester City.

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Mustard said:

Nor a reason for people not to be treated like human beings when th you're the victims.

I am really outraged. The last EUROS were in Poland and Ukraine. Who would have thought then that it would be safer there than bloody France.

And the excuse that France is terrified of another ISIS attack doesn't wash. The day before we got the Olympics we had 7/7 that worked just fine.

Inept, heavy handed and stupid French.

If they couldn't host it safely then they should have passed it to us or Germany.

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I'm not sure it was, we just forget this stuff happened because it didn't involve England fans at the time (even though our fans are obviously the worst people on Earth and always cause trouble where-ever they go, except, erm, pretty much everywhere they go):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...oligans-cause-violence-on-Warsaw-streets.html

Just look at these lovely peaceful Polish and Russian Neo Nazi's, proving that they're simply there to enjoy the beautiful game:



Welcome to World Cup 2018! Maybe don't go if you're a woman, black, gay, or English though.

I'm actually getting pretty sick of these tournaments. For every one, we take the most fans, make the most noise and create the best atmosphere and the spend the most money, but there always seems to be a group of hardcore hooligans from other countries, usually eastern Europe, who see fighting with England fans as a badge of honour. And England fans always get the blame and always get the worst treatment from police, and all the European media can't wait to blame everything on the English. English fans go to watch football, drink beer and sing songs celebrating the numerous wars they've won. There hasn't been organised hooliganism like we saw from the Russians for decades in England games, and English football hooliganism was generally always done between people who wanted to fight each other, not random spectators.

And on top of that, we haven't had decent manager for 20 years and the football itself is always disappointing.

Be glad when it's over.

It seems undeniable that French ultras had organised attacks on English fans and NI &Polish fans.
Russians are also definitely there to cause organised trouble. The incidents in the stadium make this very clear to the World.
The French police have not handled it well. It's understandable considering that the whole security services are stretched to breaking point.

So how about the English fans?
It's quite hard to follow the order of events. The media on Thursday and Friday were largely blaming English fans.
We know serious English hooligans are not allowed to travel.
BBC correspondents at the scene have reported that English fans were many throwing bottles at and over the police. It's hard to know at what point this happened and whether they had already been provoked but throwing bottles has the sole aim of trying to seriously hurt people. Even if provoked, this behaviour is pretty disgusting and I'm embarrassed by it.
As for the chants - in my opinion they are pretty moronic and do not help the situation, however they did not cause the Russians and French to have organised attacks. England are targeted because of their reputation 20 years ago.

The BBC are not yet reporting trouble with the Ni and Polish fans. When that news comes out, then England fans will get more media sympathy.

What happens next is pretty interesting. Security is already at maximum levels - I'm not sure what they can do in the short term.
If there are more incidents with the French ultras (when England are elsewhere, otherwise we will get blamed), then cancelling the tournament has to be considered. Probably unlikely to happen.

Russia should be stripped of the WC. Unlikely to happen. Any English fans who go to that WC are crazy.

On what we have seen so far, you could argue that France and Russia should be banned from tournaments which is unfortunate as they are hosting the current and next one. However, I can see England getting banned.

Geoff Pearson, who advises British police, says the use of force as seen in Marseille is counterproductive

An expert on football hooliganism who witnessed violence involving England fans in Marseille on Thursday night has said heavy-handed police tactics contributed to the trouble.

Police used teargas, dogs and rubber bullets to break up a brawl between locals and England fans who had gathered at the Queen Victoria pub two days before England’s opening Euro 2016 game.

Geoff Pearson, a senior lecturer in criminal law at the University of Manchester, who was observing the fans as part of a research project, said he feared worse violence if French riot police continued to be deployed to “break heads”.

He said the use of “overwhelming force” he witnessed was counterproductive and at odds with a new approach to policing football fans that had largely succeeded in curbing violence.

“It was the most predictable violence that I’ve seen since 2007 with Manchester United fans in Roma,” Pearson told the Guardian. “I was on the quayside outside the Old Vic pub when the trouble started. There was an initial fracas between English fans and locals over tickets at around midnight. There was then the first use of pepper spray or teargas by the police.

“Then a group of what English fans were calling Marseille ultras, but I suspect were just local gangs, turned up. There was a small confrontation. I could see two or three chairs being thrown, someone tried to tip over a table and bottles were being thrown. There was then a completely disproportionate police response. I met an England fan who had been hit by a baton round, and actually had it in his hand.

“The disturbance then went down a side alley from the quayside to the main square. That’s where most of the footage of the trouble has come from.”

Pearson, who advises British police on how tackle football violence, described the police operation as a failure. He said: “My advice to the French police is heed what their European neighbour forces are doing in terms of changing how they police large crowd events … by positive interaction and engagement with fans.

“Your first interaction with a football fan shouldn’t be firing teargas or raising your baton. If you have not had some kind of positive engagement with them beforehand, you have failed in your job as a police officer. I would certainly say that to the police officers I work with in the UK.”

Pearson said he heard England fans shouting chants about Islamic State that could have been perceived as provocative.

“The English fans behaved as the English fans usually do. They get to a match event early and in big numbers, they get drunk and they sing. Most of the songs were pretty harmless. But there were a lot of songs about Isis. They were singing about Jihadi John getting a bomb on his head, and singing previous anti-IRA songs but changing IRA to Isis.”

It was reported that fans chanted “Isis, where are you?” Pearson said: “I didn’t hear that. It was that kind of chant that came up.”

He added: “There are bad lads out here, as there are every time English teams play. And they have quite xenophobic and racist views. But these are a really small minority.

“The bigger question is how this really small group was allowed to go unchecked, and why the police felt their only response was to use baton rounds and teargas.

“There is a nothing-or-all approach from the French police. They stand back, they don’t do anything until incidents develop and then they use overwhelming force. If they carry on like that there will be greater disorder in Marseille today.

“We are presumably going to see increased numbers of police whose job it is to break heads. If it is policed in the same way then I can only see a repeat but on an escalated scale.”

Pearson contrasted French police tactics with operations that had succeeded in largely preventing football violence elsewhere in Europe.

“If you look at how football matches are policed in the UK and Germany and in Sweden, in all these areas the police interact with the fans before incidents occur. They are then able to identify potential troublemakers.

“They are able to set down tolerance limits and then if issues occur they have confidence to go back into that crowd and won’t be seen by that crowd as the enemy,” he said.

“I’ve absolutely no doubt the English police involved in helping the French police will be frustrated. I’ve seen incidents before in my research where intelligence officers from the English police have been advising their French counterparts and simply haven’t been listened to.”

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...tics-marseille-more-euro-2016-violence-expert

I don't understand football hooliganism I really don't, I would have thought grown men have better things to do than going around looking for random people to have a scuff with. Why not get in the boxing ring or do mma or something?

You've changed your tune

Mustard said:

The level of hysteria in this thread is baffling to say the least

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Mustard said:

So you are saying the Muslims in Marseille are pro ISIS?

I think you need to have a word with yourself mate.

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He's not saying that. He's making the point that if fans are chanting this of thing it's an aggressive challenge about very politically sensitive issues. If it's not targeted at anyone then why sing it? I don't hear ISIS chants sung on a weekly basis in the English Leagues.
Chanting anti-Nazi, anti-IRA, anti-ISIS songs are all conflict related - it is aggressive and confrontational to anyone that may be listening. I'm not English nor pro Nazi, IRA or ISIS but if I was in the vicinity of these chants I would get offside as it would give me the impression the singers are up for confrontation and trouble.

Have a good mate there who says our lot just keep getting attacked. There are obviously some of our own arseholes there though which doesn't help.

As for the uproar on here that our fans have dared sing about Isis or Jihad John.....sorry I forgot how lovely these 2 things are, how they would massacre us all if they could as 'non believers'. And if Marseille locals may be offended, why? Surely as decent law abiding Muslim people they totally condemn Isis?

The trouble in Nice last night was outside Ma Nolan's pub, was there myself from 6pm to 9pm, nothing happened then

Got to be a bit daft now if you decide to wonder around Marseille. Not saying it's right you should stay away but you're asking for trouble.

diamond lights said:

He's not saying that. He's making the point that if fans are chanting this of thing it's an aggressive challenge about very politically sensitive issues. If it's not targeted at anyone then why sing it? I don't hear ISIS chants sung on a weekly basis in the English Leagues.
Chanting anti-Nazi, anti-IRA, anti-ISIS songs are all conflict related - it is aggressive and confrontational to anyone that may be listening. I'm not English nor pro Nazi, IRA or ISIS but if I was in the vicinity of these chants I would get offside as it would give me the impression the singers are up for confrontation and trouble.

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Indeed, and there's some wilful naivety about why those chants are used.

A minority for sure, but how many England fans out there have associations with scum like Britain First and the EDL? Come on these twats aren't give peace a chance types, search hard enough and you will some of tdhese are proud supporters of terrorist groups - Protestant paramilitary groups in NI. That's why the ira song is being sung, it tells us the usual far right twats who go to tournaments are there again.

Why are they singing about Isis? Because the EDL target mosques, try and intimidate Muslims and post stuff on social media saying all Muslims support Isis, that's why that song is being sung in Marseille. It's far right scum, who then get some of our thicky lager lout fans joining in cos "it's a laugh"

As for running round as bombers in Germany, the people who think that is ok, would just think it was bantz if a big group of German lads were running round London throwing bottles and singing songs about the blitz?

Likewise far right twats will be part of the Russia gangs. We need to get real about this threat.

We should be putting real lions as our mascots in the dugout

See if anyone dare to do any attacking

10 German bombers is s catchy chant tbough tbf...

I agree about the far right element. Plenty of Leeds and Chelsea out there I can guarantee. One of the main reasons I don't follow England. The Isis songs are about the well publisised threat just as much as the far right wankers targeting the Muslim population of Marseille imo.

Drink!Drink! said:

Indeed, and there's some wilful naivety about why those chants are used.

A minority for sure, but how many England fans out there have associations with scum like Britain First and the EDF? Come on these twats aren't give peace a chance types, search hard enough and you will some of these are proud supporters of terrorist groups - Protestant paramilitary groups in NI. That's why the ira song is being sung, it tells us the usual far right twats who go to tournaments are there again.

Why are they singing about Isis? Because the EDF target mosques, try and intimidate Muslims and post stuff on social media saying all Muslims support Isis, that's why that song is being sung in Marseille. It's far right scum, who then get some of our thicky lager lout fans joining in cos "it's a laugh"

As for running round as bombers in Germany, the people who think that is ok, would just think it was bantz if a big group of German lads were running round London throwing bottles and singing songs about the blitz?

Likewise far right twats will be part of the Russia gangs. We need to get real about this threat.

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I'm really going to switch energy suppliers on Monday