The Spurs Youth Thread – 2016/2017

Meanwhile the young u21 side (most of the older players being in Oz of course), lost 1-0, could have been a draw had Cy Goddard not converted a penalty after Nathan Oduwa was brought down in the box.

agrdavidsfan said:

Hey guys although I do sometimes post in here haven't been in a while.

Have came across to ask for some more information on Will Miller and in general why are the hopes for the kid?

I was shocked by him thought he was a youth player that would be leaving us soon but came away amazed with his feet,passing ability,composure,pace, decision making and all that was while he was played out of position!

Winks also I believe has to be the next player to make it through at Spurs for me he's above Mason and Carroll as have now he reminds me of a young Scott Parker with more ability on the ball what a prospect!

what are the clubs general feeling towards him also?

Also Carter Vickers, really impressed me although his height may be a concern as a centre half. Great decision making and he looks super quick!.

What would be the order of the kids inside the club to make it through if we were to number them as prospects coming through?

For me at the moment it would have to be

1. Harry Winks
2. Carter Vickers
3. Edwards
4. Kyle Walker Peters

A shame really that Harrison didn't get any more minutes I was also a little let down by Dom Ball who I thought when I watched him last season was excellent for Rangers

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Its always difficult assessing younger players on a couple of pre-season freindlies - better to do it over a season - as an example Nathan Oduwa took all the plaudits last pre-season in the behind closed doors matches, but seemed to lose all confidence after disgraceful refereeing and opposition players 'tackles' (police would probably assess as GBH outside a football ground).

However :

Will Miller - Has always looked decent in u21/u18 matches but has found it difficult to stand out amongst a lot of other good players. Had a very good end to last season over the last (say) half dozen matches. He and a few others seemed to youth watchers to be borderline as to whether we retained him or let him go to make way for more of the younger players coming through. However the club released very few of the u21's - and clearly that was the right decision.

Miller's performances (and indeed Walkes) in pre-season matches in Oz were way above most of the youth watchers expectation, and whilst Poch must have been aware of their capabilities in training, I do wonder if Miller now has a real chance of getting into the first team squad - but he will be competing with the likes of Edwards for minutes, so whether Miller can do that is another question.

Harry Winks - Personally I was surprised how little Poch used him last season as he seemed more than ready. I would think Poch will have noted his abilities in Oz (possibly MOTM v Atletico Madrid ?), and I wonder if Bentaleb's potential move away from Spurs is related to Winks growing abilities, and that Winks will replace Bentaleb in the CM hierarchy.

Dominic Ball certainly had a mare for the first 15 minutes of the Juventus game - but that was because Juventus started quickly and clearly the game plan was to target an inexperienced CB partnership, and it worked in part because the CM's and AM's in front didn't get involved early in the match. If you were to re-watch those first 15 minutes I think you'd see several mistakes by both Miller and CCV in one of the goals too - and the senior defender Trippier didn't show any leadership either. Why Poch decided to start Ball as LCB is a mystery to me (Ball is very definitely right footed), unless he was a late replacement for Wimmer but Ball and CCV looked much better with Ball at RCB and CCV as LCB. After that Ball was fine and if we had had a 3rd match in OZ I think we'd have seen Ball get another start. Think Poch talked to entire team before Atletico match as not only did we start more quickly but CCV (and Walkes alongside him) looked far more prepared to deal with Atletico's attempts to target and divide the inexperienced CB2.

Not sure that ranking the prospects is useful at the moment - better IMO to say that group of 4 are some of the most likely players to break through into first team, based upon our assessment of their all round abilities.

However they will all need minutes in the first team to break through, and I'm not sure how many Poch will allocate to them (look at Winks last season as an example), so some will be lucky and others not so. However if there are one or two injuries in the first team then , then those 4 players plus for example Miller (if AM is injured), Harrison (if striker who is injured) may get more playing time than Poch originally intends, but with the number of youth players looking good we are reasonably covered against first team injuries.

agrdavidsfan said:

What would be the order of the kids inside the club to make it through if we were to number them as prospects coming through?

For me at the moment it would have to be

1. Harry Winks
2. Carter Vickers
3. Edwards
4. Kyle Walker Peters

A shame really that Harrison didn't get any more minutes I was also a little let down by Dom Ball who I thought when I watched him last season was excellent for Rangers

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there's a big five so to speak, those four and onomah. if you're to rank them then it depends on what you're basing it on. potential? current 1st team readiness? i'd consider it a bonus if any of the other current u21s were to make it with us but it's not impossible, i personally like amos the most outside of the usual names but he needs to kick on again and define what kind of player he wants to be.

Blake Griffin said:

there's a big five so to speak, those four and onomah. if you're to rank them then it depends on what you're basing it on. potential? current 1st team readiness? i'd consider it a bonus if any of the other current u21s were to make it with us but it's not impossible, i personally like amos the most outside of the usual names but he needs to kick on again and define what kind of player he wants to be.

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I would go along roughly with the 4 stated - I don't see Ball as a Spurs first team player - I still think there is a player in Oduwa which I am disappointed the coaches seem unable to develop the many attributes he has.

i think Edwards needs time and an opportunity to make mistakes. i see it as if you play the boy - he has a steep learning curve. The system we currently play demands he defends and its an area of his game which is weak and that includes his decision making in his own half.but that will come with experience. His play going forward is exciting, he plays on the half turn and wants to make things happen and retains the youthful enthuisasm which he had when I first saw him. He needs time though and for everyone to avoid the inevitable comparisons.

One player no one has mentioned is Mcgee he is a very talented keeper. The best communicating keeper I have ever seen as a young keeper he is working hard on his distribution which though a strength can also be a weakness in that he can overplay.

Ogilvie is very good defender and better going forward than people think. He had a great loan last season and has loads of talent and a peach of a left foot. Shame he never made the tour but I still have hopes for him .

Amos I like he has ability and calmness on the ball and has developed a mean streak from somewhere. He can play though but the midfield is congested and I think he would benefit from a loan this season

One of the advantages of a player like Miller is that he's home-grown and Under 21 (helps us meet the quotas), is hard working and honest, has ability and is clearly trust worthy, Poch trusting him to play at left back proves that.

Poch doesn't seem like the sort to tolerate rogues or prima donnas, you do what he wants or you're done. Someone like a Dalmat for all his ability would never get into a Poch side.

Miller may well be on the fringes of the first team this season, somewhat making up the numbers but giving Poch exactly what he wants in a bit part player. Once he hits 22 then his usefulness may tail off but until then he probably has his uses.

Just finished watching AM match and fair play to Walkes. While there was a noticeable improvement of him at CB towards last few games of season that was easily the best I've seen him play at CB regardless of the level. I said a while ago his workfare and determination may see him make it. I'd still be surprised if uts with us but he has definitely leapfrogged Maghoma at CB.

agrdavidsfan said:

Have came across to ask for some more information on Will Miller and in general why are the hopes for the kid?

I was shocked by him thought he was a youth player that would be leaving us soon but came away amazed with his feet,passing ability,composure,pace, decision making and all that was while he was played out of position!

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Millers always been class imo. However he has always been forced to adapt and move position due to Winks and Onomah. He then had a long injury and was then made striker to accommodate Walkes at 10. In all honesty I thought he would never see the first team despite constantly training with the first team. And I actually wanted him to leave so he could fulfill his potential elsewhere but so pleased to see him get a chance.

I said before he came through a lower PL clubs system he'd be playing PL by now

Spurs last group match in u21 tournament, and an early disallowed goal (ruled offside) for them. 0-0 at half time

CTB Henri Guérin‏@CTBHenriGuerin
But refusé pour @SpursOfficial ! L'attaquant anglais était hors-jeu

Ended with a 2-0 loss

http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/news/under-21s/match/report/spurs-under-21s-france-update-300716/
Update on u21 tournament so far , last match Sunday v EA Guingamp

Lines ups have been:

v Stade Rennais (Friday) : Voss, Muscatt, Brown, Stylianides (Owens 43), Maghoma, Ogilvie, J Pritchard (Tracey 25), Ward, Loft (Oteh 43), Goddard (Georgiou 25), Oduwa.

v SM Caen (Saturday) ): Voss, Marsh (Brown 39), Ogilvie (Muscatt 25), Owens (Stylianides 33), Maghoma, Mukena, Tracey, J Pritchard (Goddard 39), Loft (Oteh 25), Oduwa, Georgiou.

v Stade Brestois (Saturday): McDermott, Muscatt, Brown, Marsh, Maghoma, Mukena (J Pritchard 35), Tracey, Goddard (Stylianides 39), Oteh, Oduwa, Georgiou.

I hadn't heard these comments from Poch in this interview posted yet. He seems pretty happy. Watch the video rather than reading the article.

http://www.espnfc.co.uk/story/2920304/erik-lamela-never-considered-transfer-away-from-tottenham

I don't think oduwa will do anything as he will be gone from what I have been told. Also told that grant ward has bee sold to Ipswich

jacko73 said:

I don't think oduwa will do anything as he will be gone from what I have been told. Also told that grant ward has bee sold to Ipswich

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Oduwa is an extremely talented individual and there in is his problem. Lee Trundle was an extremely talented individual and spent the majority of his career bumming around the lower leagues. Giles Barnes was an extremely talented individual and after getting injured and losing the pace that allowed him to "burn" fullbacks (rarely scoring or setting up goals in the process) he was done. There are stories of Barnes taking on the same defender two or three times after beating them just so he could nip pasdt them again going "weeeeee". Not clever.

Oduwa has never really wanted to understand the team game, the effort, the courage and selflessness (at times) that is required. His main claim to fame was embarrassing second division Scottish fullbacks, not scoring lots of goals, not setting up lots of goals (yes, he won a couple of penalties but they dried up when fullbacks started getting rough). I'm not defending what happened to Oduwa in terms of the rough treatment, it made me very angry but the simple fact is that he has always been a showboat and not much else.

Spurs u21's drew 1-1 in their last match before the post match penalties which Spurs won 2-0 after Voss saved 2 of the opposition penalties.

Tottenham Academy‏@thfcacademy
The Academy sides have one remaining pre-season fixture each; the U21s play Fulham next Saturday and the U18s face Charlton.

Spurzinho said:

Oduwa is an extremely talented individual and there in is his problem. Lee Trundle was an extremely talented individual and spent the majority of his career bumming around the lower leagues. Giles Barnes was an extremely talented individual and after getting injured and losing the pace that allowed him to "burn" fullbacks (rarely scoring or setting up goals in the process) he was done. There are stories of Barnes taking on the same defender two or three times after beating them just so he could nip pasdt them again going "weeeeee". Not clever.

Oduwa has never really wanted to understand the team game, the effort, the courage and selflessness (at times) that is required. His main claim to fame was embarrassing second division Scottish fullbacks, not scoring lots of goals, not setting up lots of goals (yes, he won a couple of penalties but they dried up when fullbacks started getting rough). I'm not defending what happened to Oduwa in terms of the rough treatment, it made me very angry but the simple fact is that he has always been a showboat and not much else.

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Agree with most of that, but think the last few words are a tad harsh.

If Oduwa were at a lesser PL or championship side, I think he could do well being their 'main man' providing he could score consistently enough (not yet Ginola standard of skill, and Ginola was more of a team player, but similar flamboyance), but he's not one for the very much 'team based' and hard work approach that Spurs under Poch are demanding. But to do that think he needs to recover his confidence (one of his main assets) which seems to be at a low ebb since the Rangers loan

jacko73 said:

I don't think oduwa will do anything as he will be gone from what I have been told. Also told that grant ward has bee sold to Ipswich

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Neither would surprise me, we've discussed Oduwa in the last couple of posts, and whilst Grant Ward has looked very good on loan in several very different positions (CM and winger) and in youth teams he played elsewhere too, and clearly could be used by Poch as a utility player the sad truth is that there are better youth players in all the positions he plays, so its difficult to know under what circumstances Poch would play him.

Out of interest where did you hear the rumours - press, mates or...?

Heard today that Cardiff City have one or two of our u21's training with Them or they will be not sure if ex or current. Not sure who maybe it's a view to a loan.

Interesting as Cardiff are currently changing the club around and fixing the academy.

Also adopting the Wales 5-3-2 formation so would assume the players will either be defenders or wing backs.

agrdavidsfan said:

Heard today that Cardiff City have one or two of our u21's training with Them or they will be not sure if ex or current. Not sure who maybe it's a view to a loan.

Interesting as Cardiff are currently changing the club around and fixing the academy.

Also adopting the Wales 5-3-2 formation so would assume the players will either be defenders or wing backs.

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I can't think who of the current crop, as everyone who isn't in France traveled with the first team to Australia.

Spurzinho said:

Oduwa is an extremely talented individual and there in is his problem. Lee Trundle was an extremely talented individual and spent the majority of his career bumming around the lower leagues. Giles Barnes was an extremely talented individual and after getting injured and losing the pace that allowed him to "burn" fullbacks (rarely scoring or setting up goals in the process) he was done. There are stories of Barnes taking on the same defender two or three times after beating them just so he could nip pasdt them again going "weeeeee". Not clever.

Oduwa has never really wanted to understand the team game, the effort, the courage and selflessness (at times) that is required. His main claim to fame was embarrassing second division Scottish fullbacks, not scoring lots of goals, not setting up lots of goals (yes, he won a couple of penalties but they dried up when fullbacks started getting rough). I'm not defending what happened to Oduwa in terms of the rough treatment, it made me very angry but the simple fact is that he has always been a showboat and not much else.

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I agree to an extent but there has always been with Oduwa very good end product if he can get going and play with his head. His professional career has been a joke but in the youth teams he did have good technique and could do the unexpected.

He just needs to be coached properly on a one to one level.

He wasnt completely greedy and a pure individual I think thats being harsh on him.

Blake Griffin said:

yeah he played #10 for a lot of the season and wide left a couple of times. that was hardly his fault though and he did his best there, since moving to cb he's been solid and i imagine youth watchers would have a slightly more favourable view of him if they'd only seen him there rather than high up the pitch where he was like a fish out of water. even someone like toby as good as he is would look a bit rubbish playing the eriksen/alli roles so i think walkes should be cut some slack.

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I had started to read the match thread and thought I 'd bring this year. I don't know if anyone replied or responded but I think I should, as it would be best to clarify my opinion as I would definitely be included in this.

My opinon of Walkes at CB, personally wasn't influenced by him being moved around. It developed before he was tried out as an AM. Tbh my somewhat negative opinion of Walkes, only started out from the times he was first played and tried out there, which was when he was essentially tried out there for the first half of the 14/15 season, before going back to FB and DM. When he was a DM and, I thought he was decent, when he was moved to FB I thought he was functional and performed a job, however when he moved to CB, that is when I first actually started to criticise him and thought he actually looked poor. Considering most think I overrate players, and the fact I wilfully want our young players to succeed and have an open mind on them, imagine how poorly he must have played for me to actually think badly of him as footballer. I stress footballer, as I have always rated his attitude, determination and he has always seemed a decent person, on social media, on the field and the couple times I have met him in person. This actually lead me to not talking about or ignoring his poor performances as I felt bad about constantly speaking negatively on him, I know I'm not the only person who thought this. This move to CB ended halfwway through the 14/15 season though and I didn't think we'd see it again unless he was covering. However, when he was moved to no.10, last season,everyone, including me could see he was not made for that position and it made for poor team performances and stopped for more talented and often younger players getting chances in their favoured positions. I think this is when you maybe started to notice the criticism of him, and thought was maybe linked to the criticism he received on his move back to CB at the end of the season gone. However, on the contrary, it was actually only after he moved back there after his spell at no.10 did I notice a more noticeable improvement in his performances at CB.

That lead me to actually compliment him on his performances there at the end of the season. Don't get me wrong I still couldn't see him playing for the first team, but to his credit he improved, and maybe it was down to his move to AM which was a good decision by the coaches. However, was the improvement or sole development of Walkes last season, worth the stunting, regression or missed opportunties of loads of other players? Examples being Amos, at LB, Tanganga missing out at CB, Miller missing out at AM, Edwards missing out playing regularly at AM, also Bennetts who actually put in his best performances last year for the u21sm being moved back to the u18s to accommodate Walkes, and leading to him having a poor season where he ended up as a fullback for the u18s. Saying that the aforementioned players could ALL have benefited from playing in strange positions and we may see the benefit in the future but many complained about the lack of development and poor team performances.

This reminds me of the parable of the lost sheep. I don't know if its analagous, and I may not have understood it, but I thought it was to do with is it worth sacrificing other players in order to get a top player. I have actually heard many reports saying that he is really liked inside, contrary to a lot of his performances, and this may be them really trying to work on him. If Walkes comes out of this as a top class CB will it all have been worth it?i.e. potentially affecting others. Ethically too? I know Man Utd have received critcisim using this very tactic to produce players, whereby they essentially develop one, and all the other players are cast offs. We're not like that obviosuly but a case could be made here.

Anyway as I said his performance against A Madrid, was the best performance I have ever seen him put in at CB, regardless of the standard he has played. Compared to CCV who played as well as him, but has put in even better performances and more regular ones in that position.

I know you're aware I'm not ranting at you, but I've seen a couple of people comment in here, that they have only read negative views on Walkes, and I'm surprised so many people read this. So I thought I'd clarify why that was.

The 2nd point was more a discussion point. I would be so pleased for him and us if he actually made it with us, or was a success, but right now I'd still be very shocked. I can't quite believe, from what I've seen previously that, he has improved so much. At CB specifically but, it seems gradually his technique, decision-making and even positioning have all improved, to go along with his strength, athleticsim, work-rate, determination and pace.

For reference here are a few of my comments about him from the time his first moved to CB to now. Looking back at these posts I don't think I was as harsh on Walkes as I had thought, and read a few complimentary posts on him in different positions. Regardless you can tell I didn't quite foresee him playing CB against AM for us haha.

18/12/14 against Blackburn

IGSpur said:

Walkes - unsure about him at CB but i guess they rate him higher than Maghoma. Was defintely being guided by CCV. Assume he's used as he's a midfielder and meant to be more composed and a better passer but didn't seem that great.

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22/12/14 - reply to BC

IGSpur said:

Not too much of a fan of Walkes at the moment. Not sure why, he has the air of someone who thinks they are better than they are for me. Like he thinks he has a lot of time, when he doesn't which leads to mistakes. That's just me though can all change/mprove

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04/01/15

IGSpur said:

Walkes reminds me of Kaboul, and not in a good way. Not a fan of him at CB. Of course I will give him time but I'd much rather we develop Tanganga as he looks to have real potential. I've said before Walkes looks like he thinks he is better than he is and makes unnecessary mistakes.

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10/01/15

IGSpur said:

Would like to see a replay of disallowed goal. Almost pulled it back in the end. 4-2 isn't terrible, maybe could have been 4-3. Agaist Porto though our CBs needed to have been better. Poor game from Maghoma and Walkes

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22/01/15

IGSpur said:

Walkes - 7- Really good game for him. Watched his man passed well and seemed composed. No brain farts. Well done

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21/02/15 v Fulham

IGSpur said:

Walkes - 7 - Really good game again. He really has cut out the foolishness that has been frustrating me really. Brought the ball out from defense a lot and was happy to be on the ball and provide an option.

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10/02/16

IGSpur said:

Walkes has only ever looked decent in one position at DM and did a job at LB. He was poor at CB and hasn't looked good in any attacking positions. We all know players are moved into other positions to work on other parts of their games as it happens all the time, so I think most are taking that into consideration when they making judgement.

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18/05/16

IGSpur said:

Walkes has started to look a lot better at CB, though I still question his judgement but it makes it even stranger that he has played no.10 for the majoiryt of the season

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