Utilising our squad - formations

[philip]

So, we have no idea which manager will be coming in, or which DoF, and definitely don't know who will be making decisions about signing players etc.
This got me thinking. The last thing we need is another complete revolution, with a fire sale to get rid of players the new team don't want, and the inevitable long drawn out buying sagas.

The vast majority of our sqaud are either confirmed CL quality players, or have proven themselves as top 6 /potential CL quality at other clubs previously. For example, although they might not have shown it here yet, most everyone would agree that Bissouma & PEH showed enough before they came here to be clear top 6/CL quality.

Our strengths are clearly
5+ out and out attacking wingbacks
5+ All-action CMs.
A top class front 3 (if we keep Kane)

Our weakness is primarily central defence, though we have in Romero, a top class CB as good as any, and the other CB are no worse than most other PL teams who did manage to keep goals out.

The reason we mostly shipped goals this season was primarily the system. 3-4-3, especially when it's end up being a 5-2-3 defensively, simply doesn't work. We've been overrun in the middle of the park, and invited far too much pressure on the CBs. Any defence will crack &/or produce stupid individual errors when it's constantly under pressure.

The other weakness is clearly Lloris, who is in my opinion a liability as he doesn't control his box and doesn't give his teenagers any confidence.

So, my solution is as follows. We go down a Hoddle inspired sweeper system - ie with a sweeper in front of the defence - the role Ledley did amazingly well at. This sweeper can either be a ball playing CB, for when we feel we need more defensive nous, or a DM/CM for when we want to be more attacking.

So

------------New Keeper-------------

-------Romero----- --Davies---------

Porro---------Skipp/PEH---------Udogie

------Bentancur-----Bissouma/Sarr----

Richarlison------Kane----------Son.


Second team.

-------------Forster----------------

------Dier-----------Sanchez-------

Royal--------Skipp/PEH------Sessegnon

-------Bissouma/Sarr-----Winks-------

Gil---------Parrott/Scarlett-------Perisic


Ok, so the defence and front line in the second team might need work, but these teams have also left out

Kulusevski (loan)
Lenglet (loan)
Reguilon
Ndombele
Rodon
Spence
Lo Celso

Signed no one, and apart from one striker, taken no one from the academy, and yet seems on paper a very strong team, playing to our strengths, and flexible enough to cope with pressure, or to attack.


What do you think?

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

What do you think?

I think that’s a lot of players in your first team that are not suited for the position or any kind of possession-based tactics.

 

[Strikeb4ck]

Our strengths are clearly
5+ out and out attacking wingbacks
5+ All-action CMs.
A top class front 3 (if we keep Kane)

Would heavily disagree with that. Son's form for club and country has fallen off a cliff, there is no way he is a top 10 or even top 20 wing forward in this league based off this season. Kulusevski is wildly inconsistent, capable of brilliance some weeks but often goes missing. Richarlison hasn't come close to showing anything for us. Gil is unproven in the Prem.

I think we're sorely lacking up front.

We basically have the best striker of the past decade, a decent set of box to box midfielders, a hodgepodge of wingbacks/fullbacks, poor CBs sans Romero, an underfiring assortment of attackers, and a mess at GK.

There is a lot of work that needs to be done, but I think the priority has to be a GK, two really strong CBs, and then some creative attackers who can play wing or CAM (a la Kulusevski) to give us a creative option in the heart of midfield when needed and depth up front when needed.

If we can figure things out at GK/CB, that gives the wingbacks/fullbacks (Udogie, Porro, Reguilon, Perisic, Spence, etc) license to attack and get involved up front, lets our CMs shine as box to box players involved in defending but also some getting involved in attacks, and that ultimately gives our attackers a bit of support and additional space to work with. Right now I think we're so porous (without anything close to the attacking output to justify it) that players are scared to get involved in the attack.

With our squad I don't really see many options besides 3 CBs - just need a manager to come in and coach one of the progressive versions of it.

 

[dtxspurs]

3-5-2 would be the easiest setup for next season, IMO.

Im a bit stuck as im kind of sick of 3atb but know if utilized right it works well. But wtf are we gonna do with 5 wingbacks if we play a back 4.

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

Son's form for club and country has fallen off a cliff, there is no way he is a top 10 or even top 20 wing forward in this league based off this season.

Number of wide players with 10 goals plus 6 assists: 6

Salah
Saka
Martinelli
Rashford
Foden
Son

 

[dtxspurs]

Number of wide players with 10 goals plus 6 assists: 6

Salah
Saka
Martinelli
Rashford
Foden
Son

It’s crazy how little people realize that great & consistent wing play is insanely rare.

 

[razzmaster]

If we were to sign a GK and a LCB, for example Raya and Laporte, we could cover pretty much any formation using the same 11 players.

Raya
Udogie
Laporte
Romero
Emerson
Bissouma
Bentancur
Son
Kulusevski
Porro
Kane

Would be nice to take a more flexible approach next season after the rigidity of Conte and I think Mason has shown to a degree that our players can adapt to a new style/system depending on which manager we finally appoint.

 

[philip]

I think that’s a lot of players in your first team that are not suited for the position or any kind of possession-based tactics.

Please expound. Which of those players are not suited for the position I put them in?

 

[Japhet]

The one thing we must get rid of is 2 in CM. That has been an issue for years with Pochettino, Mourinho, Conte and Mason all happy to see us struggling for any sort of control in the middle of the pitch.

 

[Syn_13]

The one thing we must get rid of is 2 in CM. That has been an issue for years with Pochettino, Mourinho, Conte and Mason all happy to see us struggling for any sort of control in the middle of the pitch.

I'm often frustrated by our lack of control in the midfield. I find that 2 holding mids work if you play an attacking mid in front in a 4-2-3-1 formation. Otherwise, I'd generally prefer 3 centre mids as well.

Our go-to in recent years has been a back 3. For the life of me I can't understand why Conte didn't play 3-5-2 instead of 3-4-3. My only guess is that he felt our centre mids weren't balanced right or strong enough to play that, but I really wish we'd have tried it.

 

[JonnySpurs]

I personally feel that we don't need to opt for 3CB systems anymore, despite our options at full back/wing back.

If we signed a LCB like Laporte and paired him with Romero then we have a great CB pairing. If Emerson plays RB then we can be more attacking at LB, playing Udogie in a lob-sided back 4.

If we play Spence as the attacking option at RB, then we can opt for a player like Davies at LB. I also think Spence has the ability to be coached into a brilliant all round FB that can both attack and defend. Porro is showing so much attacking quality that I think he'll be an attacker next season. RM or RW, as he did vs Leeds.

CM is hugely important. Bissouma and Bentancur are brilliant and if we add a player like Maddison, we'll have one of the best central midfields in the league. I'd argue that we move on from Hojbjerg but equally I'm happy to keep him if he's part of a 3 man central midfield. He can't be in a CM2 anymore.

If we add Solomon, Ndicka, both on frees then we're already looking much better. The squad isn't half as bad as it's made out to be.

 

[Japhet]

I personally feel that we don't need to opt for 3CB systems anymore, despite our options at full back/wing back.

If we signed a LCB like Laporte and paired him with Romero then we have a great CB pairing. If Emerson plays RB then we can be more attacking at LB, playing Udogie in a lob-sided back 4.

If we play Spence as the attacking option at RB, then we can opt for a player like Davies at LB. I also think Spence has the ability to be coached into a brilliant all round FB that can both attack and defend. Porro is showing so much attacking quality that I think he'll be an attacker next season. RM or RW, as he did vs Leeds.

CM is hugely important. Bissouma and Bentancur are brilliant and if we add a player like Maddison, we'll have one of the best central midfields in the league. I'd argue that we move on from Hojbjerg but equally I'm happy to keep him if he's part of a 3 man central midfield. He can't be in a CM2 anymore.

If we add Solomon, Ndicka, both on frees then we're already looking much better. The squad isn't half as bad as it's made out to be.

I'd say we had to use a back 3 because we didn't have enough quality at CB to play a back 4. When we have tried it the back line is like swiss cheese. Get a couple of quality upgrades at CB though and we're good to go with 433.

 

[Hotspur33]

I’m not going to go into the specific formation we should be using, but what I will say is that we have enough good quality young players to build an exciting team.
What I think we need more than anything from our new manager, is a good dose of positivity and togetherness.
I agree we will likely need a few new pieces, and will need to shift quite a few players that have negative association with the club.

 

[philip]

I'd say we had to use a back 3 because we didn't have enough quality at CB to play a back 4. When we have tried it the back line is like swiss cheese. Get a couple of quality upgrades at CB though and we're good to go with 433.

I hear you, but what will we then do with our flying WBs?

 

[InOffMeLeftShin]

I hear you, but what will we then do with our flying WBs?

Maybe play one at a time? An attacking full back like Porro on the right would require a more defensive player on the left to slide over and keep 3 back for when we lose the ball and have to transition. We’d probably need to bring in a better defensive LB to do that (Davies isn’t good enough, Perisic is leaving, Sess always injured). Works the other way round playing udogie and Emerson.

 

[Cochise]

If Kane stays I think our forward options require us to play a system that utilises a front two. I said it in the Richarlison thread, but any coach that comes in who likes to play a 433 wants their wingers to be great in 1v1s and Richarlison is not that. Son in my opinion is not that either and his defensive qualities are less than ideal. I think he'd be better off as one of the forward options too.

That leaves us going for either a 352, 442 or a diamond. If we are being realistic, our next biggest threat is the number of wingbacks we have in the squad. We could get away with such a system with our high workrate midfielders and minimal reinforcements up top. If we exercise the buy option on Deki, then we have a player that can fill a few different roles.

352

---------Son/Richarlison------Kane-----------
Udogie----------------------------------Porro
---------Bentancur---------Kulusevski--------
------------------Bissouma------------------
---------???------------------Romero--------
----------------------???--------------------

Diamond

---------Son/Richarlison------Kane-----------
---------------------???---------------------
----------Bentancur------Kulusevski----------
Udogie------------Bissouma-------------Porro
-----------???-------------Romero-----------

442
This one is a bit different because I think there are a few ways to play it. Personally I'd be in favour of playing it in a way that bring one of our wingbacks into play as an auxilliary winger, moving between a 442 and 352 in different possession phases.


---------Son/Richarlison------Kane-----------
???---------------------------------Kulusevski
---------Bentancur-------Bissouma-----------
Udogie-------???---------Romero------Emerson

Becomes

---------Son/Richarlison------Kane-------------
Udogie--------???--------Bissouma----Kulusevksi
-------------------Bentancur--------------------
----------???------Romero-----Emerson---------

I also don't think that we could have a midfield two of Bentancur and Bissouma in this system as I think the single pivot needs to have the ability to play penetrative passes from deep and only Skipp from our current midfielders has shown any ability in that area. Hojbjerg has on occasion shown it, but I think he lacks the discipline to play there.

 

[Bing]

I think 4-2-3-1 is our best formation. Bissouma and Bentancur in the pivot. Kane up top with Son, Kulu and a new Attacking CM behind. Porro or Emerson in the right back position. New GK and new CB.

The big thing for me is how big of an inflection point we are at right now in terms of squad. I look at the players we have and I can either gaslight myself into thinking we have a great team or a terrible team.

Pessimistic view: Kane goes, Son and Kulu have both been really poor last season, Bentancur may not come back as his former self, Bissouma was unimpressive before his injury, Porro has shown he is incapable of defending, questions marks around Romero's disicpline, focus and consistency. On the downside we are really mid table fodder at best.

Optimistic view: Kane stays, Son/Kulu/Bentancur/Bissouma/Romero all get back to their best, Porro settles into the PL, we buy a top ACM, GK and CB and we are comfortbaly top 4 quality....at least on first 11.

Could go either way.

 

[TEESSIDE1]

I think 4-2-3-1 is our best formation. Bissouma and Bentancur in the pivot. Kane up top with Son, Kulu and a new Attacking CM behind. Porro or Emerson in the right back position. New GK and new CB.

The big thing for me is how big of an inflection point we are at right now in terms of squad. I look at the players we have and I can either gaslight myself into thinking we have a great team or a terrible team.

Pessimistic view: Kane goes, Son and Kulu have both been really poor last season, Bentancur may not come back as his former self, Bissouma was unimpressive before his injury, Porro has shown he is incapable of defending, questions marks around Romero's disicpline, focus and consistency. On the downside we are really mid table fodder at best.

Optimistic view: Kane stays, Son/Kulu/Bentancur/Bissouma/Romero all get back to their best, Porro settles into the PL, we buy a top ACM, GK and CB and we are comfortbaly top 4 quality....at least on first 11.

Could go either way.

We must add at least one athletic, combative central midfielder if we’re to play 4231 as one injury or suspension to Bissouma and/or the already injured Bentancur and we’re knackered. We need more like for like players so when we lose players there’s someone else ready to step in without us having to adjust our approach.

 

[Albertbarich]

He could surprise as all and go full copy cat Man City.
A certain much maligned centre back has played almost the exact same role as John Stones is right now. I know it would cause uproar but imagine it worked and it also lets him utilise Porro and Udogie as really attacking wing backs.

 

[thebenjamin]

A serious problem we have if Kane leaves, beyond obviously losing Kane himself, is that Son and Richarlison couldn't be less suited to playing together. They have almost zero complimentary qualities.