The Spurs Youth Thread - 2017/2018

We are now down to Dembele, Winks and (god forbid) Dier as CM's, yet we sent Onomah off on loan (I know he probably wanted to - but he wanted to because he clearly wasn't getting the backing of Pochettino)

I am very disheartened with the events and reported quotes around both Onomah and KWP this weekend. If Sissoko is eligible to play for Spurs on 1 September and Onomah isn't then I don't really know what to think, because it strikes me as idiocy, to be blunt about it. Sigh.

If we sign a RB I hope we send KWP out on loan. It's a complete waste of time keeping him around the training ground now. He's 20, he has to be playing first team football somewhere or he'll never make it.

Personally I wanted us to be signing a new RB but it is a bit weird. Considering how much Poch likes to promote youth I thought there was a big chance KWP would be back up. He's just won U20 World Cup and those quotes are almost insulting to him. He's clearly a big prospect with a lot of talent, I don't see why he'd give Shaw and Chambers a chance but not him.

We should be beating Newcastle with our team vs there's, I don't really see what would have been wrong with giving him a start and see how he did in PL. He might have had a really good game and saved us spending on a RB at a time when we're clearly lacking transfer funds.

I wrote a big long post but quite frankly my thoughts could be summed in in the words "Very disappointed".

Since he joined Poch has been applauded for his handling of young talent, this summer people have been saying Sessegnon and Sancho should come here, and that Edwards would be mad to leave, because Poch is magic.

24 hours later and all of a sudden Spurs isn't the place to be for young players?

We're interested in 18-year old Bolton Goalkeeper Jake Turner apparently:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/foot...ited-head-to-head-england-bolton-jake-turner/

Clark28 said:

Since he joined Poch has been applauded for his handling of young talent, this summer people have been saying Sessegnon and Sancho should come here, and that Edwards would be mad to leave, because Poch is magic.

24 hours later and all of a sudden Spurs isn't the place to be for young players?

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i don't think it's the same people saying those things though.

fans mock chelsea for their use of their academy/youth players but honestly, i don't think we're a great deal better in that respect currently. it's one thing giving them a chance when we're mid-table and have underperforming first teamers - which was the case when poch took over and mason/bentaleb/kane etc broke into the team(though some would argue the latter two had already done that), but it's a whole different ball game when you're competing at the top of the league with the likes of chelsea, as we're now finding out. is there really any difference between how onomah and loftus-cheek's careers have gone over the past couple of years for example? people saw mason mount this summer and said it's a shame he'll be spending the next couple of years at vitesse, but is that not preferable to barely playing at any level at all which is what happens to our players of equivalent age/talent.

i've no doubt that poch could sign a 20 year old from germany who has a season or two under their belt and give them the chance to grow and improve but it's not the same as doing that for a player who hasn't played any senior football. maybe poch needs to reevaluate and instead of taking the best 17/18 year olds out of youth football only to have them become full-time trainers maybe he should just get them out on loan immediately - though there can still be exceptions.

speaking of goalkeepers.

spending 2m + wages on someone like gazzaniga to be 3rd choice and therefore more than likely never actually have to play just seems like a complete waste of resources. i'm sure glover could've done the same and be equally as bad if called upon .. and he'd have done it for free(well, almost).

"The big sides are investing a lot of money trying to improve their squads but we are so calm and quiet because we have belief in our youth from our academy"

This was what Pochettino said only a few weeks ago yet the message sent yesterday in light of Trippier's injury is that KWP can't be trusted to stand in against a newly promoted side in Newcastle.

Fucking head scratching if you ask me.

So we are reluctant to play the youth and hesitant to go in the market.

So what exactly is the plan then?

A badly timed introduction of youth can be just as bad if not worse than playing them at all. If you care about your players you don't just throw them into the premier league especially if you don't feel they're ready.

Jamturk said:

A badly timed introduction of youth can be just as bad if not worse than playing them at all. If you care about your players you don't just throw them into the premier league especially if you don't feel they're ready.

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yeah Poch likes to gradually introduce the youngsters, he's never just thrown one into the starting 11 without giving them sub appearances first.

IIRC KWP has never played a single minute of competitive senior football, it's a huge jump to go from that to starting away at Newcastle next week. I think he'd be fine playing, but can see why Poch might not be so keen on the idea.

Jamturk said:

A badly timed introduction of youth can be just as bad if not worse than playing them at all. If you care about your players you don't just throw them into the premier league especially if you don't feel they're ready.

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i wouldn't argue with that but i also don't think it's good for players to get to 21-22 having played virtually no first team football. why is it that england are more than competitive with the biggest footballing nations at u16/u17/u18/u19/u20 level but when they start getting to u21s(which is mostly made up of players aged 20-23) they start to fall behind and then by the time they hit the seniors they're nowhere near? maybe the players peaked early, or maybe whilst their careers are on hold, their foreign counterparts are playing, learning from mistakes and developing. england lag a fair way behind countries like france, germany and spain for minutes given to players in that age range and it seems to directly correlate with the progress they make.

Clark28 said:

Since he joined Poch has been applauded for his handling of young talent, this summer people have been saying Sessegnon and Sancho should come here, and that Edwards would be mad to leave, because Poch is magic.

24 hours later and all of a sudden Spurs isn't the place to be for young players?

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To me all it's sounded like is Poch throwing out a challenge to Onomah ("He can be anything he wants to be but needs to realise how good he is..." basically) and looking to protect KWP ("People shouldn't expect too much... he's still got a lot to learn..." basically).

Neither of those comments are any different from what plenty of our youth watchers have said so it's strange he'd get beaten about them.

I think the loan for Onomah could be the making of him - the moment he finds his 'character' in the men's game. Fingers crossed.

Blake Griffin said:

i wouldn't argue with that but i also don't think it's good for players to get to 21-22 having played virtually no first team football. why is it that england are more than competitive with the biggest footballing nations at u16/u17/u18/u19/u20 level but when they start getting to u21s(which is mostly made up of players aged 20-23) they start to fall behind and then by the time they hit the seniors they're nowhere near? maybe the players peaked early, or maybe whilst their careers are on hold, their foreign counterparts are playing, learning from mistakes and developing. england lag a fair way behind countries like france, germany and spain for minutes given to players in that age range and it seems to directly correlate with the progress they make.

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An interesting angle, but aren't these players being introduced at lower calibre football clubs?

Clubs that don't have ambitions of challenging for a top4 place.

Bus-Conductor said:

We are now down to Dembele, Winks and (god forbid) Dier as CM's, yet we sent Onomah off on loan (I know he probably wanted to - but he wanted to because he clearly wasn't getting the backing of Pochettino)

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How pathetic, one preseason poor game from dier and it's "god forbids"he plays now

Blake Griffin said:

i don't know either but in a separate tweet he says he asked poch if kwp is ready to play if trippier's out and the answer was no.

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I don't think it's as bad as people are reading in to it, I think porch is saying. His not ready to play at KTs level but will play this season.

Clark28 said:

Since he joined Poch has been applauded for his handling of young talent, this summer people have been saying Sessegnon and Sancho should come here, and that Edwards would be mad to leave, because Poch is magic.

24 hours later and all of a sudden Spurs isn't the place to be for young players?

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I clicked agree, reluctantly. I'm both a passionate advocate of our youth system, and youth systems in general as well as being someone who trusts Poch.

However, since he joined his record on young players is the following:

Ryan Mason (Poch didn't given him his debut, but did give him a run, although he was already 23 at the time)
Tom Carroll (Similar to above, Tom was already 23, but Poch's trust didn't extent far)
Alex Pritchard (made 1 app under AVB, his only other under Poch - rest is history)
Milos Veljkovic (as above, pretty much)
Dele Alli (debatable whether Poch broke him in but he was young when signed & untested at the top level)
Eric Dier (as above)
Josh Onomah (given his debut under Poch, at 19, but trust has never been earned)
Harry Winks (given his debut, at nearly 21, and seems to have Pochs trust although remains to be seen if he can sustain that)
Shayon Harrison (given one sub appearance, at 19, but seems to be outside Poch's trusted group
Marcus Edwards (given one sub appearance in the cup, at 18, but injuries have restricted him since)
Anton Walkes (given one sub appearance in the cup, at 19, but farmed out to US which is not a usual path to the first team)
Cameron Carter-Vickers (Given his debut, at 18, in the cups but is seemingly not trusted as backup to Toby & Jan)
Filip Lesniak (given his debut under Poch, at nearly 21, before being released)

Players in Blue are still with us. If you take out Alli & Dier it doesn't look very impressive. Poch hasn't trusted anyone straight out of the academy. Mason was already 23 when he got his run & Winks was nearly 21 and had been slogging his guts out at reserve level for a while. I've not included Kane or Bentaleb because they were semi-established under Sherwood. I've also not included Miller, KWP, Georgiou or TOB because they have only appeared in pre-season friendlies.

There's no question, there is currently a divide between academy & Poch. Either Poch does not feel that we are producing sufficient talent (in which case is the academy working) or Poch has just lost the courage of his convictions under the pressure of needing to compete at the top level domestically and in Europe. Neither is particularly encouraging. I don't know which is easier to solve.

Spurzinho said:

Poch hasn't trusted anyone straight out of the academy.

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Yes he has - Winks - I don't know how anyone can argue that isn't the case.

Bus-Conductor said:

We are now down to Dembele, Winks and (god forbid) Dier as CM's, yet we sent Onomah off on loan (I know he probably wanted to - but he wanted to because he clearly wasn't getting the backing of Pochettino)

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Forget wanyama ? We have 4 established CM .chelsea currently have 3 on their books.Arsenal have xhaka/elneny.Liverpool can/henderson.I really would be complaining about our 4 CMs.
As for KWP sure some of this has got lost in translation.For me that long paragraph says he's not ready to be 1st choice say if trippier was out for months,but he is ready to fill in.